Who was more DOMINANT than Orel Hershier in 1988 from start to finish?

[Blamo]

Henry Rowengartner 1993

[JoshMN]

Originally Posted by oldgoldy97

So the consensus is nobody else.

The consensus may actually be closer to "almost anyone else".

But I think we can agree that Orel was the most dominant 1988 pitcher who was also a pitchman for baby shampoo.

[JoshMN]

On a side note, I've always wondered whether Orel has a brother named "Anel". Can anyone confirm one way or the other?

[tconte]

Originally Posted by scotthenrichs

I think they were more of a 1989 thing. I'd put George Michael as the king of 1988.

Better than both these guys would have to be Tom Cruise.

He was in Cocktail and Rainman that year. He got the hotties in both flicks.
That and the cool cars and clothes too.

[KSIGN]

Originally Posted by solt0131

Which of all those years did Maddux have just an unbelievable season?

1995 - 19-2 1.63 ERA, 209 IP 10 complete games, Cy Young

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by oldgoldy97

So the consensus is nobody else.

I'd venture to say his 88 season wasn't even elite. it was very good, then he was lucky to play on a great team that made the world series and was very good there to.

For reference, his 88 regular season WAR ranks just outside of the top 500 for best single seasons (to be fare most of those are early 1900s stuff) but still wouldn't even sniff top 20-30 seasons for modern pitchers, hell it wouldn't even win the cy young lots of years. Take 1988 even. Frank Viola was better

[varjakpaul]

Absurd that Orel was basically just as good in 1989 - 2.31 ERA, 256 innings, identical 149 ERA+, even better FIP (2.77 to 3.18) but went 15-15 for a Dodgers squad which sputtered out behind him.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Zack Britton in 2016.

[KSIGN]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

Zack Britton in 2016.

^^^ Excellent - Britton was a beast this year. Didn’t blow a single save. Great call.

[rfgilles]

Originally Posted by rms13

I'm old enough that I clearly remember watching him in 88. He was great that season but I have trouble calling someone dominant when they had 6k/9ip. I'd refer to him as crafty like Maddux was. Most dominant I've seen in my life was definitely Pedro 1999. 23-4, 2.07 era, 13.2 k/9ip. 2-0 in post season, 17 ip, 23 k, 0 ER. Struck out 5 in 2 ip in the All Star game Larry Walker, Sosa, McGwire, Bagwell and Larkin.

Although he didn't pitch in the postseason, 85' Gooden was unreal.

[ReggieBush22]

Originally Posted by towerymt

Koufax '65

Good shout, definitely up there.

[ReggieBush22]

Originally Posted by eastbayak

Madison Bumgarner in 2014

His regular season was elite but nothing bordering on all-time stuff (18-10, 2.98 ERA, 4th in CY Young voting).

But his 2014 playoff run might very well be the GOAT run. 1st all time in IP for a postseason with 52.2. Orel had 42.2 in 1988. However, Orel didn't play a WC game or the divisional series. If you ONLY count NLCS and WS, Madison is at 36.2 while Orel is at 42.2. So at least the final 2 series, Orel carried a heavier load. Both won NLCS and WS MVPs.

[ReggieBush22]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

Big Orel fan, played poker with him a few times and very nice guy but to answer your question his season isn't even close to the top.

Lets start with 2001 Randy Johnson. For starters he posted a full +3 WAR better season while strikeing out an extra 200 guys in roughly same ammounts of innings. Then we won the world series going 3-0 with 1.04 era

Check Schilling's stats in 2001 also. GOAT tier season too when you consider the total picture (reg season & playoffs). 48.1 IP for Schilling to Randy's 41.1. WS MVP. Off the charts ERA and WHIP.

[ReggieBush22]

Originally Posted by Mattsurewood

Bob Gibson 1968

1.12 ERA
304 IP/34 starts (8.94 IP per start)
.853 WHIP
268Ks
13 Shutouts
22-9 record
ERA+ 258
11.2 WAR


2-1 in the world series, all 3 games Complete Games...1.67 ERA, 35ks and a .815 WHIP

Way up there for sure.

[ReggieBush22]

Originally Posted by varjakpaul

Absurd that Orel was basically just as good in 1989 - 2.31 ERA, 256 innings, identical 149 ERA+, even better FIP (2.77 to 3.18) but went 15-15 for a Dodgers squad which sputtered out behind him.

Also had terrible run support in 1987. His ERA was 3.06 but he went 16-16.

He also had a pretty impressive 6 year run from 1984-1989:

2.68 ERA, 16-11, 242 IP

Cy Young voting 1st, 3rd, 4th, 4th

[ReggieBush22]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

I'd venture to say his 88 season wasn't even elite. it was very good, then he was lucky to play on a great team that made the world series and was very good there to.

For reference, his 88 regular season WAR ranks just outside of the top 500 for best single seasons (to be fare most of those are early 1900s stuff) but still wouldn't even sniff top 20-30 seasons for modern pitchers, hell it wouldn't even win the cy young lots of years. Take 1988 even. Frank Viola was better

LOL.

You're so biased.

He would win the Cy Young in most years.

23-8, 2.26 ERA, 15 CG, 8 SO, 267 IP

He led the league in all those categories sans ERA, which he missed out by just .08 (Magrane 2.18)

Plus the absolute cherry on top being his 59 IP scoreless streak.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by rfgilles

Although he didn't pitch in the postseason, 85' Gooden was unreal.

Dwight Gooden was just unreal, period. I still can't think of anyone since that debuted and dominated at such a young age at just 19 years old.

[awz50]

Originally Posted by ReggieBush22

Way up there for sure.

Way up there being above bulldogs "best season ever"

[awz50]

Originally Posted by rfgilles

Although he didn't pitch in the postseason, 85' Gooden was unreal.

At 20 years old too boot

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by ReggieBush22

LOL.

You're so biased.

He would win the Cy Young in most years.

23-8, 2.26 ERA, 15 CG, 8 SO, 267 IP

He led the league in all those categories sans ERA, which he missed out by just .08 (Magrane 2.18)

Plus the absolute cherry on top being his 59 IP scoreless streak.

seems like ignoring war ignoring strikouts and focusing on wins and non park adjusted ERA is def the non bias approach to take

Why did Orel dominate in 1988. lets look at this BAPIP from 1987 to 1992 and tell me if any year stands out?

87- .290
88- .242
89- .285
90- .301
91- .304
92- .288

Given his absurdly low K numbers, the most likely scenario is he was a very good pitcher that had way above avg luck for one year and put up great numbers as a result. Im sure if you looked up BARISP it would yield similar results

[Chris Lyle]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

I'd venture to say his 88 season wasn't even elite. it was very good, then he was lucky to play on a great team that made the world series and was very good there to.

For reference, his 88 regular season WAR ranks just outside of the top 500 for best single seasons (to be fare most of those are early 1900s stuff) but still wouldn't even sniff top 20-30 seasons for modern pitchers, hell it wouldn't even win the cy young lots of years. Take 1988 even. Frank Viola was better

Come on.... wouldn't win the cy young in a lot of years? I think that is a stretch. You seem like the guy that has his group of pitchers that you like and if someone doesn't fit that mold and you find analytics that somewhat back up what you say they are shunned.

Hershiser was putting up great numbers even into his years with Cleveland. But I guess he is not Degrom so he is a chump.. That is how you come across

[corndog]

Originally Posted by Mattsurewood

Bob Gibson 1968

1.12 ERA
304 IP/34 starts (8.94 IP per start)
.853 WHIP
268Ks
13 Shutouts
22-9 record
ERA+ 258
11.2 WAR


2-1 in the world series, all 3 games Complete Games...1.67 ERA, 35ks and a .815 WHIP

Gibson for the win.

[Chris Lyle]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

seems like ignoring war ignoring strikouts and focusing on wins and non park adjusted ERA is def the non bias approach to take

Why did Orel dominate in 1988. lets look at this BAPIP from 1987 to 1992 and tell me if any year stands out?

87- .290
88- .242
89- .285
90- .301
91- .304
92- .288

Given his absurdly low K numbers, the most likely scenario is he was a very good pitcher that had way above avg luck for one year and put up great numbers as a result. Im sure if you looked up BARISP it would yield similar results

You keep going with all these made up scenario's we don't know how he'd be but I do know he helped Cleveland get to a World Series with 16-6 record 3.87 ERA against hitter that were on roids and by the way he was 36

[Chris Lyle]

Originally Posted by Mattsurewood

Bob Gibson 1968

1.12 ERA
304 IP/34 starts (8.94 IP per start)
.853 WHIP
268Ks
13 Shutouts
22-9 record
ERA+ 258
11.2 WAR


2-1 in the world series, all 3 games Complete Games...1.67 ERA, 35ks and a .815 WHIP

This is my vote.

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by Chris Lyle

Come on.... wouldn't win the cy young in a lot of years? I think that is a stretch. You seem like the guy that has his group of pitchers that you like and if someone doesn't fit that mold and you find analytics that somewhat back up what you say they are shunned.

Hershiser was putting up great numbers even into his years with Cleveland. But I guess he is not Degrom so he is a chump.. That is how you come across

Would you agree that we can prob easily name 30+ seasons where Orel doesn’t win the cy young. All I’m saying is if his regular season doesn’t rank In the top 30 individual seasons for modern baseball then it’s fairly absurd to even talk about it being the best of all time, even with his excellent post season factored in.