What’s Worse?

[pewe]

Originally Posted by rms13

If by ruining their bodies you mean getting stronger and better than sure? And nobody is saying using ped should be a requirement. Working out shouldn't be a requirement, eating an optimal diet shouldn't be a requirement, getting proper sleep shouldn't be a requirement. This is still a free country so everyone should have freedom of choice when it comes to their bodies from what I am told. But if I was a professional athlete I would probably want to do all of the things to maximize my performance and I think 90% of them already are doing that even if some fans want to bury their heads in the sand and be ignorant about it.

If you can't make the league without using PED, then it becomes an unstated requirement. So the question remains: should players be forced to ruin their bodies to play? And break the law as a requirement to play?

This is the ethical question that the league and physicians are faced with. Currently they fall on the side of the players' health.

[Randallk34]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

you suggested that baseball players will die early from steroid use. I just want one example of that happening from the likely set of thousands of steroid users that have played.

You're acting as not dying early from steroid use means that they dont do damage to your body and can harm you in ways other then resulting in an early death.

You can smoke cigarettes and live till you're 95 without getting lung cancer. Doesn't mean you haven't hurt yourself in other ways, like shortness of breath from walking 3 feet or a face that looks like a wrinkled catchers mitt. But hey, you're not going to die early, so smoke away.



""My tendons and ligaments got all torn up," Caminiti told CNNSI. "My muscles got too strong for my tendons and ligaments. And now my body's not producing testosterone. You know what that's like? You get lethargic. You get depressed. It's terrible.""

Here you go, steroid related, not his death but his body was damaged. Is this worth 300 million dollars? Maybe. But to act as if roids don't have long term damage is naive and stupid.

[Randallk34]

Originally Posted by jwilson6204

On a lineup full of cheaters we may never know. Someone actually listened to all the regular season games and kept track of the trash can bangs. It appears that Altuve, Tony Kemp and Josh Reddick were not participating. There were bangs noted in some of Altuve's at bats, but it was significantly lower than the others. There is also video of Altuve looking back pissed off after hearing a bang. (Not sure if the EVP of Trash Can Banging was actually keeping track of who was at bat.)

Many believe Jonboy's report that Altuve was wearing a buzzer. However, Fiers didn't note any buzzers and the investigation didn't uncover use of buzzers despite giving the players full immunity (of which they admitted to all the other cheating). Over 20 players who played at some point during 2017 have moved onto other teams and none of them have reported use of buzzers. There is a rumor that Baseball is using Altuve's buzzer system for the pitchers and catchers now (I might have just made that up).

Altuve hasn't done himself any favors by choosing to stay quite on the topic. Correa and others have come out in his defense that he didn't cheat, but it's probably too late for his legacy.

He cheated dude. Even if this is true and he didn't partake, he still cheated with the team. Only way he didn't cheat is if this took place behind his back and he was 100% in the dark about what his teammates were doing and that's simply not the case. He's a cheater and everyone on that team that knew is a cheater as well. The team benefited from knowingly breaking the rules, they are cheats.

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by pewe

I've wondered about this, too. One thing that occurred to me: receiving and using stolen signs isn't against the rules. And the players weren't the ones doing the illegal sign stealing. I wonder if based on that technicality that they couldn't go after the players... because if they did, MLBPA would file a grievance that would be upheld, which might be an even worse egg on the face of the commissioner/MLB.

Actually, while stealing signs is not illegal, using technology to do so is and has been. In the early 21st Century, MLB even issued a memo to all teams that use of electronic equipment to steal signs was illegal.

But again, I'm not against stealing signs. I think stealing signs is an art and good for any player or team that cracks the code and uses it to their advantage. But the Astros players used technology and should have been appropriately punished.

[rms13]

Originally Posted by pewe

If you can't make the league without using PED, then it becomes an unstated requirement. So the question remains: should players be forced to ruin their bodies to play? And break the law as a requirement to play?

This is the ethical question that the league and physicians are faced with. Currently they fall on the side of the players' health.

Who is ruining their bodies and breaking the law? Without all of the facts you're just talking out of your you know what. Without knowing exactly what every professional athlete is taking you are just speculating. A lot of steroids are legal when prescribed by doctors. There is an entire industry for hormone replacement doctors that do just that for anyone with money to pay for it. A lot current PED trends are using peptides and other substances that aren't illegal in the United States and aren't on MLB banned substance list. So there are a lot of PED that players are taking that aren't tested for or banned and have similar or better results than old fashion steroids that have been used for the past 90 years. And there are medical exemptions for banned substances if players have them prescribed by a doctor and every professional athlete in the United States has more than enough money to pay a doctor to prescribe them. So it's pretty ignorant to think that most players aren't using some sort of PED.

And that doesn't even address your repeated comment about players ruining their bodies. Please explain how they are ruining their bodies by using substances that enhance their bodies?

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by Randallk34

You're acting as not dying early from steroid use means that they dont do damage to your body and can harm you in ways other then resulting in an early death.

You can smoke cigarettes and live till you're 95 without getting lung cancer. Doesn't mean you haven't hurt yourself in other ways, like shortness of breath from walking 3 feet or a face that looks like a wrinkled catchers mitt. But hey, you're not going to die early, so smoke away.



""My tendons and ligaments got all torn up," Caminiti told CNNSI. "My muscles got too strong for my tendons and ligaments. And now my body's not producing testosterone. You know what that's like? You get lethargic. You get depressed. It's terrible.""

Here you go, steroid related, not his death but his body was damaged. Is this worth 300 million dollars? Maybe. But to act as if roids don't have long term damage is naive and stupid.

There are def health consequences don't get me wrong, and you like said they are prob worth 300 million, but more importantly they are wroth 300,000 when the alternative is $200 a month for the rest of your life.

It's also no secret that getting absolutely huge in not always a plus from baseball and it hurts flexibility increases injury etc so baseball players that juice are going to be doing it far differently and have far less health consequences then say body builders where I imagine heart attacks and other deaths in the mid 40's is somewhat common.

I know Winstrol/Stanozolol was the most common when I played and you wouldn't look like a freakish body builder when taking it. But it was also important to stretch and workout the small muscle groups as well. You also generally took a testoerone supplement with it to prevent what Caminiti was describing. So while I won't deny any if the problems he had, its also very possible he had these problems from not using them correctly/using them to much (6 weeks on 6 weeks off, cycling etc). Current day, I have 0 clue of what the current steroid lanscape looks like or if they are better or worse for your body

[rms13]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

There are def health consequences don't get me wrong, and you like said they are prob worth 300 million, but more importantly they are wroth 300,000 when the alternative is $200 a month for the rest of your life.

It's also no secret that getting absolutely huge in not always a plus from baseball and it hurts flexibility increases injury etc so baseball players that juice are going to be doing it far differently and have far less health consequences then say body builders where I imagine heart attacks and other deaths in the mid 40's is somewhat common.

I know Winstrol/Stanozolol was the most common when I played and you wouldn't look like a freakish body builder when taking it. But it was also important to stretch and workout the small muscle groups as well. You also generally took a testoerone supplement with it to prevent what Caminiti was describing. So while I won't deny any if the problems he had, its also very possible he had these problems from not using them correctly/using them to much (6 weeks on 6 weeks off, cycling etc). Current day, I have 0 clue of what the current steroid lanscape looks like or if they are better or worse for your body

That is a more educated answer. Living in poverty definitely has more long term health consequences than using steroids. Bodybuilders probably have worse consequences than other people using steroids due to the doses many of them use but even in that world it's not like 90% are dropping dead in their 30s and 40s, it's like maybe 5 high profile cases I've heard of in the past 40 years. Most reasonable doctors will tell you that the ones that died early have more to do with the fact that they were walking around at 300 lbs when not competing and doing zero cardio exercise most of the year because that takes away from muscle gains. Arnold is 75 and used a boatload of steroids from the 60s through the 90s and he's definitely still using but probably at a lower dose and he looks great for 75. Almost every steroid has therapeutic use and when they are used at reasonable doses under the care of doctor where you are getting regular blood work to monitor your levels it's probably safer than eating a standard American diet your entire life.

But I would still like to see a list of professional athletes who have died directly from PED use or had their bodies ruined by PEDs? I can't think of anyone other than Lyle Alzado who died of brain cancer which he attributed to steroid use but that has been debunked since then and I don't think you will find one doctor who will say now that steroid use had any link to his cancer. When you think of all of the athletes who have used steroids since their inception in the 1930s until now and how many have had a truly negative outcome that can be factually attributed to steroids is probably about .001 % of the people that used them.

[vegetable]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

What’s worse - getting in a car and running over someone who pissed you off or getting drunk and accidentally running over someone you don’t know, killing the person in both instances?

The way I see it, your decisions lead to the same consequences - you took a life.

Cheating is cheating - just because someone gets away with it doesn’t make it right. People get drunk and get behind the wheel all the time.

Sell your Tatis stash, he doesn’t belong in anyone’s collection.

You keep or buy Tatis, you condone cheating.

And people will question your moral compass for doing so, lol. Why you collecting a roider, bro?

It's not that serious.

[n1nesports]

Originally Posted by pewe

It sounds like you only care if cheating results in better performance?
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OP asked which we consider worse, for me it's sign stealing, it's like getting a glimpse into the future.

I was wondering something, if the league said players were allowed to use PED's, would you (and anyone else reading this) still consider it cheating?

[pewe]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

Actually, while stealing signs is not illegal, using technology to do so is and has been. In the early 21st Century, MLB even issued a memo to all teams that use of electronic equipment to steal signs was illegal.

But again, I'm not against stealing signs. I think stealing signs is an art and good for any player or team that cracks the code and uses it to their advantage. But the Astros players used technology and should have been appropriately punished.

What I’ve been wondering is the nuance: perhaps the issue the league and MLBPA ran into is the players weren’t the ones who used the tech to steal the signs. Thus technically the players didn’t break any rules.


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[pewe]

Originally Posted by n1nesports

OP asked which we consider worse, for me it's sign stealing, it's like getting a glimpse into the future.

I was wondering something, if the league said players were allowed to use PED's, would you (and anyone else reading this) still consider it cheating?

Personally? I’d definitely still be hugely against PED, even if the league turned a blind eye. Essentially the repeat of the 90s scandal all over again.

Would be interesting if the general public consensus remains the same as back then: fans expect clean players and like to believe in “natural hard work delivered performance”.


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[jhssketchcards]

So how many of you are ok with what Tatis did? Is it a big deal or just another part of the game and it’s just accepted all players do it?


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[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by jhssketchcards

So how many of you are ok with what Tatis did? Is it a big deal or just another part of the game and it’s just accepted all players do it?


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no big deal, assumed he was juicing before the positive test so all it really confirms is that he's an idiot.

[rms13]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

no big deal, assumed he was juicing before the positive test so all it really confirms is that he's an idiot.

That's my biggest concern with Tatis is that he's an idiot. It's not that hard for him to be doing what he was doing without getting caught.

[n1nesports]

Originally Posted by pewe

Personally? I’d definitely still be hugely against PED, even if the league turned a blind eye. Essentially the repeat of the 90s scandal all over again.

What about it would you be against? Is it the pressure it would put on the guys who don't want to use PED's that would bother you? Or just a matter of it being an "unnatural" way to alter their physical makeup?

[rms13]

Originally Posted by n1nesports

OP asked which we consider worse, for me it's sign stealing, it's like getting a glimpse into the future.

I was wondering something, if the league said players were allowed to use PED's, would you (and anyone else reading this) still consider it cheating?

Stealing signs has been part of the game since it's inception. It was one of the first things I was taught in little league 40 years ago. Our coaches told us how to read other team's signs and how to relay them back to the hitter and bench. That's why teams use a bunch of methods like indicators to mask they signs to confuse the other team because they know everyone is watching and trying to steal them.

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by rms13

Stealing signs has been part of the game since it's inception. It was one of the first things I was taught in little league 40 years ago. Our coaches told us how to read other team's signs and how to relay them back to the hitter and bench. That's why teams use a bunch of methods like indicators to mask they signs to confuse the other team because they know everyone is watching and trying to steal them.

Cheating or not? Daughter plays high school softball and its pretty common for teams to call pitches and locations by calling out numbers and stuff. I can crack this with a simple computer program in like an inning. same thing for indicators but tough to get big enough sample size if they change inning by inning.

[hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

Cheating or not? Daughter plays high school softball and its pretty common for teams to call pitches and locations by calling out numbers and stuff. I can crack this with a simple computer program in like an inning. same thing for indicators but tough to get big enough sample size if they change inning by inning.

No technology. I think I've been pretty clear on this point with you. Banned.

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[JoshMN]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

Cheating or not? Daughter plays high school softball and its pretty common for teams to call pitches and locations by calling out numbers and stuff. I can crack this with a simple computer program in like an inning. same thing for indicators but tough to get big enough sample size if they change inning by inning.

Would be cheating under the MLB rules, but only if you use the computer. If you can figure their signs out in your head: not cheating.

[Danderlion]

PED use for sure

[base set]

Well with sign stealing, the question is moot now anyway with the comm system in the pitcher’s cap. I suppose that could be hacked but the consequences of getting caught would be enormous. MLB was successful at settling a precedent there, I think.

Also sign stealing has more of a team benefit than an individual benefit, whereas PED use is more individualistic though good individual production helps a team. But the benefits & goals aren’t quite the same.

We could probably just have one big ole Steroids Thread that mentions David Ortiz, greenies, A-Rod, Bonds, and now Tatis, by decree at least once per page of responses. Whenever conversations veer to PEDs, take it to the ‘roids thread.

I would want to ask such a thread this. It is routinely stated in these threads that PED testing is stupid, we should just let the athletes roll with them, etc., etc.

My question is - let’s say a good, strictly secret ballot vote were to be held, amongst only current members of MLBPA, on this question: should MLB allow players to use PEDs?

I think such a vote would lose.

[jhssketchcards]

Another question for those who condone PEDs… are you ok if HS kids age 16-17 take them? College? I mean if the league were to allow them shouldn’t baseball players of a certain age be able to take them if they are high level players? Of course I know states have rules in their associations but it’s hypothetical. If PEDs aren’t harming these guys, then surely kids could take them.


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[Stifle]

Originally Posted by rms13

That is a more educated answer. Living in poverty definitely has more long term health consequences than using steroids. Bodybuilders probably have worse consequences than other people using steroids due to the doses many of them use but even in that world it's not like 90% are dropping dead in their 30s and 40s, it's like maybe 5 high profile cases I've heard of in the past 40 years. Most reasonable doctors will tell you that the ones that died early have more to do with the fact that they were walking around at 300 lbs when not competing and doing zero cardio exercise most of the year because that takes away from muscle gains. Arnold is 75 and used a boatload of steroids from the 60s through the 90s and he's definitely still using but probably at a lower dose and he looks great for 75. Almost every steroid has therapeutic use and when they are used at reasonable doses under the care of doctor where you are getting regular blood work to monitor your levels it's probably safer than eating a standard American diet your entire life.

But I would still like to see a list of professional athletes who have died directly from PED use or had their bodies ruined by PEDs? I can't think of anyone other than Lyle Alzado who died of brain cancer which he attributed to steroid use but that has been debunked since then and I don't think you will find one doctor who will say now that steroid use had any link to his cancer. When you think of all of the athletes who have used steroids since their inception in the 1930s until now and how many have had a truly negative outcome that can be factually attributed to steroids is probably about .001 % of the people that used them.

It amazes me how many members are oblivious to use vs abuse. Using steroids doesn’t equate to going Mandarich, whom I’ve heard took 6 Anadrol a day, a horse steroid. Mandarich to my knowledge is still well. Some of the abusers would “stack” up on multiple roids. What these people hear when a abuser dies is that they utilized roids but it’s amazing how many also used harsh drugs like heroine, etc.

People die from pain killers all the time, drinking to much water, eating food that is total crap, etc. Steroids are utilized all the time for all of us but it’s in regulated doses. Children with stunted growth, eye drops, etc. So many people would be shocked if they realized what they had utilized had roids.

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by jhssketchcards

Another question for those who condone PEDs… are you ok if HS kids age 16-17 take them? College? I mean if the league were to allow them shouldn’t baseball players of a certain age be able to take them if they are high level players? Of course I know states have rules in their associations but it’s hypothetical. If PEDs aren’t harming these guys, then surely kids could take them.


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First off nobody is condoning PED use, in a perfect world nobody takes steroids. But in the real world that just not how it works and if a massive amount of people are using them you will likely have 2 options (take steroids or retire) and have to weight the risks of each. Sure there are plenty of god gifted athletes that can get by on their own talent but there is a massive sample of people that will get left behind by even skilled people using.


As to the kids question, IDK how to answer. Ideally kids would not take them at all (I'd assume there are more health risks associated with bodies that are not fulyl developed and also the are more likely to be stupid about it) but again the reality is that kids (high school) do take them, a lot. In college, everyone takes them (or at least did, I assume they still do but no idea)

It also depends on what you qualify as a steroid also. In high school almost everyone was taking something that would have caused them to fail a lot of drug tests. Some kids were just taking ephedrine (prob more likely to kill you then steroids), most were taking some type of andro product and some were stacking the real stuff. We had at least one kid that took a ton of steroids in high school and he had a pretty decent mlb career, shrug.

It's also very tough to say what constitutes "cheating" Did the guy that used needles cheat and the guy who took andro didn't, did one guy cheat more. Should the one guy that misread a label from a supplement at GNC be grouped together with Bonds and HGH guys.

[Stifle]

Originally Posted by jhssketchcards

I’m not speaking of cards at all. I get those are built in to this debate, but my question is about the BM game itself. Altuve is a part of that team, and for whatever reason, didn’t address it outright other than the cookie cutter apology they all gave. Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t cheat with the others, but he is culpable being the veteran and star of that team that year. He’s been thrown at ever since, and that’s what I’m speaking of. Why are guys thrown at for cheating one way but not another? Always been curious about that.


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The problem is simple. Why have different character standards for different levels of those involved within the game? Members so bent on punishing the clowns but allowing those who created the circus to not share equal accountability. You really believe the steroid era had all the owners being oblivious to what was occurring, no GM’s hinting that there could be users, please, ignorance is only bliss to a certain degree.

As far as being voted into the HOF. When every group within the game has the ability to be voted in, then each group should have the same character clause that could keep them out of the HOF. The executives have the ability to pay off their “cheating” while players are banned. Those in the game should share equal accountability, for or against the game.