What’s Worse?

[pewe]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

name a baseball player that has died early from steroid use (caminiti doesn't count)

Well established negative health effects of PED use somehow don't impact baseball players, uniquely???

[oldgoldy97]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

Yes, if they allow everything, then MLB turns into WWE.

Sounds fun to me.

[oldgoldy97]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

name a baseball player that has died early from steroid use (caminiti doesn't count)

Nando’s popularity count?

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by pewe

Well established negative health effects of PED use somehow don't impact baseball players, uniquely???

you suggested that baseball players will die early from steroid use. I just want one example of that happening from the likely set of thousands of steroid users that have played.

[Skipscards]

Perhaps it's a matter of taste. I find both wrong but if I am splitting hairs, I loathe PEDs a lot more than sign stealing. If someone is stealing your signs, make better signs. Also, historically, sign stealing justice is meted by the players on the field.

What sucked about the Astros situation specifically is the MLB handled it wrong and punished the wrong people.

[jhssketchcards]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

Perhaps it's a matter of taste. I find both wrong but if I am splitting hairs, I loathe PEDs a lot more than sign stealing. If someone is stealing your signs, make better signs. Also, historically, sign stealing justice is meted by the players on the field.

What sucked about the Astros situation specifically is the MLB handled it wrong and punished the wrong people.

Yep. Completely agree. Those players should have been suspended.


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[pewe]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

Perhaps it's a matter of taste. I find both wrong but if I am splitting hairs, I loathe PEDs a lot more than sign stealing. If someone is stealing your signs, make better signs. Also, historically, sign stealing justice is meted by the players on the field.

What sucked about the Astros situation specifically is the MLB handled it wrong and punished the wrong people.

Who should the MLB punish, that got off Scott free?


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[asujbl]

Originally Posted by BdotHobbs

I never cared about PEDs before and I don’t care about them now. And I definitely don’t care about sign stealing.

I like you

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by pewe

Who should the MLB punish, that got off Scott free?


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If they were going to punish someone, then punish the players.

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by jhssketchcards

Yep. Completely agree. Those players should have been suspended.


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Exactly.

[jhssketchcards]

Originally Posted by no10pin

I think for some people, the level of anger towards someone who cheats in any form is based on how they handled being caught.

The Astros were arrogant a-holes about it when everything came out, so most people are going to keep that grudge for awhile. Players who are apologetic and take ownership tend to be forgiven down the road, at least by some.

I consider Tatis lying the way he did about ringworms the same as the Astros being arrogant in their “apologies”. Now we see Tatis come out and say he’s legit sorry. Is he? Maybe. Maybe it’s he’s sorry he got caught. Same with the Astros. I don’t think any of these guys are genuinely sorry because they have enough $$ to forget their discretions. And since the HOF is now putting cheaters in (Ortiz and the others will eventually), why should any of them care? I’d have more respect for a player saying “yeah I did it, big deal. Suspend me. I will be back”, rather than lying then coming clean.


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[pewe]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

If they were going to punish someone, then punish the players.

I've wondered about this, too. One thing that occurred to me: receiving and using stolen signs isn't against the rules. And the players weren't the ones doing the illegal sign stealing. I wonder if based on that technicality that they couldn't go after the players... because if they did, MLBPA would file a grievance that would be upheld, which might be an even worse egg on the face of the commissioner/MLB.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by pewe

In a thread debating the answer to: "Is cheating by taking PEDs worse than cheating by stealing signs like the Astros and other teams did?"

How would you like the reader to take your comment:



Was your desire:

Dispassionate? Like "Astro's sign stealing has more impact, but don't use that to draw a conclusion because impact has no bearing."

Positive? Like "Astro's sign stealing has more impact, but its completely OK to do."

Other???

One more post where you simply don't understand. You literally said "It sounds like you only care if the cheating results in better performance." It doesn't matter whether I'm dispassionate, or positive, or other, because you took my statement of degrees and made it an absolute. You made the logical fallacy that because I said one was worse/had more impact than the other, that I only care about one. And I said nothing of the sort.

[pewe]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

you suggested that baseball players will die early from steroid use. I just want one example of that happening from the likely set of thousands of steroid users that have played.

You are suggesting baseball players are immune from the effects of PED. When you evaluate that list of 1000+ MLB steroid users, is their mortality rate equal to those MLB players who did not use?

[johnlocke36]

Originally Posted by pewe

You are suggesting baseball players are immune from the effects of PED. When you evaluate that list of 1000+ MLB steroid users, is their mortality rate equal to those MLB players who did not use?

hard to answer that when 100% of the sample is still alive

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by oldgoldy97

Announcer: “Next up for the Padres, ‘Nandro Ta-tissssss!!!!!

Tatis: “Wait, but my name in ‘Nand…………”

Announcer: “IT DOESN’T MATTER WHAT YOUR NAME IS!”

[pewe]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

One more post where you simply don't understand. You literally said "It sounds like you only care if the cheating results in better performance." It doesn't matter whether I'm dispassionate, or positive, or other, because you took my statement of degrees and made it an absolute. You made the logical fallacy that because I said one was worse/had more impact than the other, that I only care about one. And I said nothing of the sort.

Ok, so you agree: you care that cheating results in better performance (sometimes). And you imply, by posting in this thread that sign stealing improves performance, that you believed the Astro's cheating is worse than PED because it increased their performance more.

So the original question stands: if you discover the cheating didn't improve the Astro's performance, would you consider their cheating less bad than PED use???

[pewe]

Originally Posted by johnlocke36

hard to answer that when 100% of the sample is still alive

Who are the 1000+ users? And what evidence do you have that they are not impacted by an increased prevalence of disease that is a leading cause of early death?

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by pewe

Ok, so you agree: you care that cheating results in better performance (sometimes). And you imply, by posting in this thread that sign stealing improves performance, that you believed the Astro's cheating is worse than PED because it increased their performance more.

So the original question stands: if you discover the cheating didn't improve the Astro's performance, would you consider their cheating less bad than PED use???

Again, I don't care about the Astros or their cheating. I never mentioned them. I spoke about sign stealing in general as providing a greater advantage to a hitter (and there are far more teams stealing signs than just the Astros). Whether the Astros were able to effectively take advantage of that is a completely different issue.

[rms13]

Originally Posted by pewe

So, it should be a requirement that players ruin their bodies and die early if they want to play professionally???


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If by ruining their bodies you mean getting stronger and better than sure? And nobody is saying using ped should be a requirement. Working out shouldn't be a requirement, eating an optimal diet shouldn't be a requirement, getting proper sleep shouldn't be a requirement. This is still a free country so everyone should have freedom of choice when it comes to their bodies from what I am told. But if I was a professional athlete I would probably want to do all of the things to maximize my performance and I think 90% of them already are doing that even if some fans want to bury their heads in the sand and be ignorant about it.

[bloodwings19]

MLB will always have someone cheating, endless.

Tuve's having something in his chest to cheat is defamation and character assassination. They never found anything on him, yet someone created this firestorm. Tuve could of sued whoever came up with the ridiculous theory. If he really cheated, more people would of spoke up yet we haven't found anyone. F@#$# Altuve is f@#$# up.

[jwilson6204]

Originally Posted by Randallk34

Wait people actually think Altuve didn't cheat LOL

On a lineup full of cheaters we may never know. Someone actually listened to all the regular season games and kept track of the trash can bangs. It appears that Altuve, Tony Kemp and Josh Reddick were not participating. There were bangs noted in some of Altuve's at bats, but it was significantly lower than the others. There is also video of Altuve looking back pissed off after hearing a bang. (Not sure if the EVP of Trash Can Banging was actually keeping track of who was at bat.)

Many believe Jonboy's report that Altuve was wearing a buzzer. However, Fiers didn't note any buzzers and the investigation didn't uncover use of buzzers despite giving the players full immunity (of which they admitted to all the other cheating). Over 20 players who played at some point during 2017 have moved onto other teams and none of them have reported use of buzzers. There is a rumor that Baseball is using Altuve's buzzer system for the pitchers and catchers now (I might have just made that up).

Altuve hasn't done himself any favors by choosing to stay quite on the topic. Correa and others have come out in his defense that he didn't cheat, but it's probably too late for his legacy.

[christhecpa]

Originally Posted by JoshMN

PEDs. Surprised so many people are saying stealing signs.

I look to the Patriots and Tom Brady for a good analogy. Brady and the Pats got caught cheating twice for non-PED rule breaking, but no one cares about that anymore and it won't affect Brady's legacy. Now if Brady had gotten popped for PEDs I think the current perception of him would be much different and his legacy would be tainted.

Is it not hypocritical to support Brady and not Tatis when they are both guilty of deflating balls?

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by christhecpa

Is it not hypocritical to support Brady and not Tatis when they are both guilty of deflating balls?

Welp, this thread is over and we have a winner.

[JoshMN]

Originally Posted by christhecpa

Is it not hypocritical to support Brady and not Tatis when they are both guilty of deflating balls?

Great comment! Lol. Perhaps people distinguish the manual deflation vs. the deflation based on chemical use. Plus, Brady was not even in the same room as his balls when they were deflated.