Did WhatNot Open a FAKE 1986-87 Fleer Basketball Box at The National?

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

We're talking about 2 different things. I'm talking about older wax boxes in general. They weren't factory sealed. It's practically impossible to determine if all wax packs are original to the box. All you can do is base that on pack condition and consistent wrapping. Otherwise, you're just taking the word of whomever you are buying them from.

The advantage of 1986 Fleer Basketball is sequencing. Every box is going to have at least 3 Jordan 57's and 3 sticker sets. No less. That's 33 packs with the 11-card sticker checklist. The remaining 3 packs could contain anything. From another Jordan 57 to another Jordan sticker.

In general, we've always discussed, on these very forums, that counterfeit cards will get better over time simply due to technology. I wonder how much this is more about scammers improving their wax reseal technology than anything else. Believing someone took an iron to the back of these wax packs today as they did in the 80's is foolish. We've already seen fake wrapped boxes in 2012 Prizm and National Treasures. It's only going to get worse.

You stated you don’t see an issue as long as the box meets the criteria you outlined above. Having the appropriate number of each card in the proper order does not exclude the box from being sealed. The intelligent scammer would reseal a box with all the right cards, in the right order, but swap out the big names for lesser to mid-grade conditioned cards.

[auburn35]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

Did BBCE release a statement yet? That's surprising if true. I can't imagine Steve wrapping a box without 3 Jordan stickers. Was the box opened on video?(Checking now)

Edit: the two packs replaced were 1 MJ sticker and 1 Hakeem sticker

Apparently a letter from BBCE was paired with the box stating it contained only 1 MJ sticker. Strange he still did it.

Watching the videos it was interesting (not surprising) to see the Goldin sale occur without the BBCE letter, documenting the contents. This letter wouldn't have benefited the auction price.

[SupermanBrandon]

Originally Posted by auburn35

Watching the videos it was interesting (not surprising) to see the Goldin sale occur without the BBCE letter, documenting the contents. This letter wouldn't have benefited the auction.

When Kenny G is the least scummy person in all of this...you know there's a problem.

[MJGOAT23]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

Did BBCE release a statement yet? That's surprising if true. I can't imagine Steve wrapping a box without 3 Jordan stickers. Was the box opened on video?(Checking now)

Edit: the two packs replaced were 1 MJ sticker and 1 Hakeem sticker

Apparently a letter from BBCE was paired with the box stating it contained only 1 MJ sticker. Strange he still did it.

So yes, normally the Frankenboxes come with a letter that says it contains 36 unopened, untampered packs, but not the exact 36 original packs as issued by Fleer to further explain the wwording on the back of the box "36 pack box".

Anyway, where did the two replacement packs come from? BBCE's stash? Shouldnt there have been at least 2 legit packs in the break ? Yet there wasnt, right? I didnt watch the entire break video. It is too nauseating.

[GOATcards]

it is blatantly easy to unseal and reseal wax, why would anyone go anywhere near that kind of product without ironclad chain of custody?

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

Did BBCE release a statement yet? That's surprising if true. I can't imagine Steve wrapping a box without 3 Jordan stickers. Was the box opened on video?(Checking now)

Edit: the two packs replaced were 1 MJ sticker and 1 Hakeem sticker

Apparently a letter from BBCE was paired with the box stating it contained only 1 MJ sticker. Strange he still did it.

It’s not strange. He authenticated it for a friend. Or does Steve do YouTube videos with all his customers?

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by whitmm

an Abdul-Jabber sticker

you mean Lew Alcinder?

[mc1]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

Couldn’t whatnot easily reseal the box themselves after removing the desired cards and replacing them with bad cards and then pretend to open the BBCE authenticated box on camera just to disrepute BBCE?

Occam’s razor

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

You stated you don’t see an issue as long as the box meets the criteria you outlined above. Having the appropriate number of each card in the proper order does not exclude the box from being sealed. The intelligent scammer would reseal a box with all the right cards, in the right order, but swap out the big names for lesser to mid-grade conditioned cards.

usually a lower-conditioned card right out of the pack is going to be due (on a set like this especially) to poor centering. A sophisticated collector and opener of genuine 86F material won't be able to detect patterns in centering of cards within a pack, whether the color on the jersey and register in "Chicago" match, what kinds of 57s have certain red print dots in the blue border, which ones tend to have a bit of white print marking in the nameplate area, the differences in crispness in the "Fleer premier" logo, the exact (or not) aligning of the black trimline to line up with the yellow trim, the ones with the fish-eye right to the left of MJ's face . . . (I'unno, should I join any authentication team that would have me? lol)

[JAMSC]

Originally Posted by MJGOAT23

Anyway, where did the two replacement packs come from? BBCE's stash? Shouldnt there have been at least 2 legit packs in the break ? Yet there wasnt, right? I didnt watch the entire break video. It is too nauseating.

This is the most important question BBCE needs to answer. They replaced those two packs with two other packs and somehow they also had the same error in ordering? That’s pretty much the smoking gun that BBCE was in on it. It’s at the point that I think having anything BBCE authenticated should be viewed as negatively impacting the value of a product.

[discodanman45]

BBCE is doing the collecting world a favor. Get the PSA 9 Jordans out of the packs and seal up the PSA 6 Jordan's.

[ken161]

I'm not surprised the box was tampered with. There's too much incentive for the crooks. In some of these scams, they can make more than an average American makes in three, five, or ten years. The crooks needn't worry about consequences either. Even if they found out who resealed these packs, the person will probably not face any financial liability, let alone hard jail time.

I just assume all big-ticket items in the hobby have been tampered with at some time. There's still plenty of "collector-grade" stuff out there that's fun to collect. People spending small fortunes on collectibles are encouraging the scammers to do their thing.

[overboosted]

Someone brought this up before. Did anyone see them rip the seal at the event. Another person chimed in that the seal was legit. BUT, did anyone see them rip the seal at the event? It sure would be easy to buy a BBCE box, display it, then when it's time to open the packs, put out a tampered box.

[SupermanBrandon]

Originally Posted by JAMSC

This is the most important question BBCE needs to answer. They replaced those two packs with two other packs and somehow they also had the same error in ordering? That’s pretty much the smoking gun that BBCE was in on it. It’s at the point that I think having anything BBCE authenticated should be viewed as negatively impacting the value of a product.

That's where the hobby has surpassed the old gatekeepers. Previously, nobody would ever think about opening those boxes. So just say it's legit and nobody will ever know. Now its super sexy to open this stuff live on camera in front of thousands. The lights are being turned on. Both the old school scammers and todays...are all being pushed out into the light.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

You stated you don’t see an issue as long as the box meets the criteria you outlined above. Having the appropriate number of each card in the proper order does not exclude the box from being sealed. The intelligent scammer would reseal a box with all the right cards, in the right order, but swap out the big names for lesser to mid-grade conditioned cards.

You're still not tracking, I'm not talking about the box in this thread and I'm not talking about resealed,tampered packs. It's a general statement about what a box of 1986 Fleer basketball should contain directly from the factory.

Why you would believe anyone is ok with resealed packs except the scammer, is your issue, not mine. If anyone is spending any amount of money on a box, it's always a great idea to know what to look for in compromised packs.

[GOATcards]

so does this mean that the high-grade 57s have basically been mined by the scammers by now, so that should mean a slow in the population growth of high-graded 57s which means a renewed price pump for high-grade 57s soon enough, yes?

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by MJGOAT23

So yes, normally the Frankenboxes come with a letter that says it contains 36 unopened, untampered packs, but not the exact 36 original packs as issued by Fleer to further explain the wwording on the back of the box "36 pack box".

Anyway, where did the two replacement packs come from? BBCE's stash? Shouldnt there have been at least 2 legit packs in the break ? Yet there wasnt, right? I didnt watch the entire break video. It is too nauseating.

Honestly, I dont think very many have. Based on the opinions here, many of them seem not to know much about 1980's and older wax boxes. The videos in one of the posts state that the original owner of the rebuilt wax box purchased two PSA graded packs from BBCE to fill the holes of the resealed pack(Kareem sticker) and popped pack(Jordan Sticker).

As for any videos, I see two boxes opened at the National. Cardporn and the Whatnot box. There are HL's of MJ's being pulled but I dont know what box is what. I dont see any original opening of the box except for the Cardporn box. Apparently they do their homework though. If anyone has a link to the original Whatnot box wrap coming off, please link it.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by overboosted

Someone brought this up before. Did anyone see them rip the seal at the event. Another person chimed in that the seal was legit. BUT, did anyone see them rip the seal at the event? It sure would be easy to buy a BBCE box, display it, then when it's time to open the packs, put out a tampered box.

I can't find anything on the original opening of the Whatnot box. Anyone got Twitter, IG or Whatnot to check?

At this point, Steve should record himself authenticating boxes of this caliber with both the front and back of each pack. He knows which packs contain an MJ and MJ sticker.

[cruiserdaddy7]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

I can't find anything on the original opening of the Whatnot box. Anyone got Twitter, IG or Whatnot to check?

At this point, Steve should record himself authenticating boxes of this caliber with both the front and back of each pack. He knows which packs contain an MJ and MJ sticker.

The guy shouldn't even be trusted or in business. 2 high profile fails in short time.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by overboosted

Someone brought this up before. Did anyone see them rip the seal at the event. Another person chimed in that the seal was legit. BUT, did anyone see them rip the seal at the event? It sure would be easy to buy a BBCE box, display it, then when it's time to open the packs, put out a tampered box.

The two packs that were replaced were opened later and supposedly they had the same sequencing as the rest of the (tampered) packs. Would be an amazing coincidence if somehow WhatNot found the same source and replaced with tampered packs.

Out of all 36 packs were the two that Steve inserted more legit? Anyone have a complete breakdown of each pack? Would be nice.

[tconte]

Never mind. My bad. It is still there.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by cruiserdaddy7

The guy shouldn't even be trusted or in business. 2 high profile fails in short time.

The problem here is we can't find the video of the WhatNot BBCE box being opened. Hopefully there is one. Otherwise, saying it was the BBCE wrapped box is just as good as a random breaker unwrapping a box off camera and saying it's factory sealed. This could actually be a disaster for WhatNot if there isn't a video. Kinda sets the precedent for their application.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by auburn35

Seriously, that's not on BBCE. That's on the seller. Strange he questions what's right and then doesn't include the letter in the auction. Maybe it was Goldin who didn't though. Thanks for posting this

To add, it's actually sad that people dont do their homework. Why not send BBCE an email and inquire about the serial number? I'm sure the letter would've been brought up in the correspondence.

[Collector only]

[QUOTE=shaner1;18360031]

Originally Posted by Collector only

Definitely in the Coin Collecting world... A Local Coin dealer here in FL was busted for fraud a few years ago...scamming customers out of about $300K .
One of the customers was a friend of mine, who lost a $75K rare gold coin to the dealer.

The dealer recommended grading the coin, and it graded very, very high. Then the dealer broke it out of the case, and then graded it with with another company...to try and disguise it.

Ultimately FBI was involved, and I hear the coin was found....in the collection of Ken Kendrick, the owner of the Arizona Diamondbacks.


https://www.floridatoday.com/story/n...aud/495614001/

————————————————————————————————————————
Interesting. Perhaps the coin was resting right next to the strip cut Gretzky T206 Wagner?
If interested in learning of the type of people in the Fine Art world, check out ‘The Last Leonardo’ by Ben Lewis. Many parallels to the sports card world, with bigger #’s.

Ultimately, the best part of this story so far is SCR’s WWE style promo at the end of one of the videos. Hilarious!

[jr24ai3]

Originally Posted by mc1

The two packs that were replaced were opened later and supposedly they had the same sequencing as the rest of the (tampered) packs. Would be an amazing coincidence if somehow WhatNot found the same source and replaced with tampered packs.

Out of all 36 packs were the two that Steve inserted more legit? Anyone have a complete breakdown of each pack? Would be nice.

I watched a large part of the break. The first pack I noticed the sequence was bad. I do remember there being at least one pack that did have a good sequence.