Did WhatNot Open a FAKE 1986-87 Fleer Basketball Box at The National?

[SupermanBrandon]

Originally Posted by mc1

Ok. So he still had to inspect each pack and deem each of them as untampered and original. He caught 2 of 36.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by mc1

Ok. So he still had to inspect each pack and deem each of them as untampered and original. He caught 2 of 36.

That’s right. He’s the “expert” but I’d be pretty suspicious of the rest of the box if I caught two bad packs. I might question if I just missed the evidence of resealing in the rest.

[mindcycle]

Originally Posted by rustywest

Pretty much anybody who knows anything about the basketball hobby knows there is a sequence but just look at these fools with their Johnsons in hand.

[matt roberson]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

The unopened case a few years ago came from the Larry Fritsch collection. It may as well came from Fleer itself. That was a steal. Im speculating but I do believe that they have more of them. Larry was a wise man and if anyone bought the clearance cases from Fleer,’it was him. Again, speculation but my take.

Im pretty sure the local news paper article quoted him as saying it was his only one..... but he could be lying to protect Pricing or even his and his families well being due to the incredible value of a sealed case. I would think at minimum he probably still has some loose boxes stashed somewhere.

Originally Posted by rustywest

LoL "Influencers"

If you follow an "influencer" in any sphere you need to down a 6 pack and then immediately play frogger on the busiest highway.

Pretty much anybody who knows anything about the basketball hobby knows there is a sequence but just look at these fools with their Johnsons in hand.

So that's what happened to Haskins, now it makes sense.

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

That’s right. He’s the “expert” but I’d be pretty suspicious of the rest of the box if I caught two bad packs. I might question if I just missed the evidence of resealing in the rest.

Apparently expert is a loose term in this hobby. Trust no one in this hobby, only believe to be true what you witness first hand.

[auburn35]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

That’s right. He’s the “expert” but I’d be pretty suspicious of the rest of the box if I caught two bad packs. I might question if I just missed the evidence of resealing in the rest.

Yeah, back when Rattle Pokemon covered this 86/87 Fleer box, it was interesting to hear BBCE explain the decision to swap out the packs and recreate a complete box. Obviously would have been better had Steve just refused to authenticate this box of resealed packs.

Similar to when grading companies run into submissions with trimmed/altered cards, it should be standard procedure to at least increase the inspection of the other items and with multiple occurrences, just stop grading the submission.

[SHoCKBiZZLE]

Originally Posted by SupermanBrandon

Did he tell his customers that he was subbing and trusting their cards w/ someone else? NO (so he lied to his customers)

Did he wait way to long to get to the bottom of it (while trying to hide it at first)? YES

Does he get "brownie points" for coughing up his own money? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Just because people do good things for the kids or do free giveaways doesn't make them immune. He's either completely clueless (which has its own issues) or he knows exactly what he's doing while smiling and bringing "hobby positivity" and down playing the "haters".

Soooooo basically what youre saying is he got screwed over and made it right. Got it.

[grade]

What next? Swapping out cards from slabs ok? Swapping GU patches as ok? Swapping 1 card out of packs ok ?

[gomiamigo]

Originally Posted by SHoCKBiZZLE

Soooooo basically what youre saying is he got screwed over and made it right. Got it.

It pretty clearly obvious he was lying to his customers. Not OK.

Defending that seems....odd.

[auburn35]

The videos have been discussed but here's some direct links.
Similar to the goofs who documented the authentication of the fake Pokemon case, there's several interesting videos recapping the authentication of this 86/87 Fleer box.

Really good photos of the box and packs, prior to shipping off to BBCE


Breakdown of the pack swaps and authentication


History of BBCE

[shaner1]

[QUOTE=Collector only;18358864]

Originally Posted by YayNJ

It's hilarious (not in a good way) just how many low-life-scumbags there are in this "hobby".

I genuinely can't think of anything else like it, where there is such a concentration of thieving corrupt criminals than sportscards / pokemon.


I think you’d find it in any collectible market (I mean hobbies)
Art, coins, comics, cars, antiques, nautical, firearms, books, video games, wine/booze…..did I miss any?

Definitely in the Coin Collecting world... A Local Coin dealer here in FL was busted for fraud a few years ago...scamming customers out of about $300K .
One of the customers was a friend of mine, who lost a $75K rare gold coin to the dealer.

The dealer recommended grading the coin, and it graded very, very high. Then the dealer broke it out of the case, and then graded it with with another company...to try and disguise it.

Ultimately FBI was involved, and I hear the coin was found....in the collection of Ken Kendrick, the owner of the Arizona Diamondbacks.


https://www.floridatoday.com/story/n...aud/495614001/

[losangelesfan]

Originally Posted by SpartanWarrior

I'm not sure what is more hilarious.

The fact that not one of the "influencers" had a clue? Or the fact that there are people that seemed shocked and surprised that Steve Hart hasn't a clue?

Come on folks. This hobby has been in the gutter since the 1980's. Rob Lifson stealing cards from the NY Public Library. Bill Mastro trimming and shill bidding. Doug Allen shill bidding. Gary Moser master trimmer (along with about 10 other guys). Mike Baker keeping cards when GAI went under. Mike Baker keeping cards when Global Authority went under. Dave Forman (owner of SGC) having his own cards graded and his brother shilling his cards in Mastro Auctions. PSA dealers getting grade bumps. Those are the good old days!

Now we have Steve Hart wrapping anything that comes with payments. PSA grading tons of trimmed cards. CC2 running fake PSA group submission business. Influencers pumping whatever they are told to pump and receiving "sweet" free stuff for their troubles. Marx Cards eating for everyone and breakers just generally screwing everyone. Fake comps, Fake sales, tons more shill bidding.

And the sheep just keep on handing their money over.

I'm waiting for the first vault company to go BK. That is when the *&*% will really hit the fan. Bet Mike Baker will be there to scoop up some of those cards too! Even put a few stickers on them on the way out the door!

Wow, crazy to read this stuff. How about Don West? Or he was just a salesman?

[Spfld Ponies]

Originally Posted by brettmik59

I would not feel great about sitting on "sealed" wax of any high value product right now.

Literally moved all my opened packs this morning. Never will I trust Steve Hart again... BBCE is obviously a SCAM. Two+ huge, high profile errors recently. PSA needs to cut ties!!

[Spfld Ponies]

Originally Posted by SpartanWarrior

I'm not sure what is more hilarious.

The fact that not one of the "influencers" had a clue? Or the fact that there are people that seemed shocked and surprised that Steve Hart hasn't a clue?

Come on folks. This hobby has been in the gutter since the 1980's. Rob Lifson stealing cards from the NY Public Library. Bill Mastro trimming and shill bidding. Doug Allen shill bidding. Gary Moser master trimmer (along with about 10 other guys). Mike Baker keeping cards when GAI went under. Mike Baker keeping cards when Global Authority went under. Dave Forman (owner of SGC) having his own cards graded and his brother shilling his cards in Mastro Auctions. PSA dealers getting grade bumps. Those are the good old days!

Now we have Steve Hart wrapping anything that comes with payments. PSA grading tons of trimmed cards. CC2 running fake PSA group submission business. Influencers pumping whatever they are told to pump and receiving "sweet" free stuff for their troubles. Marx Cards eating for everyone and breakers just generally screwing everyone. Fake comps, Fake sales, tons more shill bidding.

And the sheep just keep on handing their money over.

I'm waiting for the first vault company to go BK. That is when the *&*% will really hit the fan. Bet Mike Baker will be there to scoop up some of those cards too! Even put a few stickers on them on the way out the door!

I'm not thrilled reading your response as it details many duplicitous scams... but you are RIGHT on each one!! The hobby needs to police itself better, there needs to be a way to bring these thieves to justice.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by SupermanBrandon

The fact that ANYONE thinks you can just replace 2 packs or make a box out of random packs is okay...is major problem and completely unacceptable. Not to mention the packs being resealed.

I see you don't buy older wax boxes. Your logic is flawed. They aren't factory sealed. The only exception were late eighties/early nineties Costco/Price Club retail wax boxes. That is why there is a premium on FASC boxes.

[SupermanBrandon]

Originally Posted by SHoCKBiZZLE

Soooooo basically what youre saying is he got screwed over and made it right. Got it.

Defending him while knowing he was lying to his customers from the start and only paid the money because he was afraid of lawsuits...is really odd! But you do you.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

You don’t see the issue even after this debacle?

Open a legit box. Remove the MJs. Replace with mid-grade MJs. Reseal the packs and box. Scam complete.

We're talking about 2 different things. I'm talking about older wax boxes in general. They weren't factory sealed. It's practically impossible to determine if all wax packs are original to the box. All you can do is base that on pack condition and consistent wrapping. Otherwise, you're just taking the word of whomever you are buying them from.

The advantage of 1986 Fleer Basketball is sequencing. Every box is going to have at least 3 Jordan 57's and 3 sticker sets. No less. That's 33 packs with the 11-card sticker checklist. The remaining 3 packs could contain anything. From another Jordan 57 to another Jordan sticker.

In general, we've always discussed, on these very forums, that counterfeit cards will get better over time simply due to technology. I wonder how much this is more about scammers improving their wax reseal technology than anything else. Believing someone took an iron to the back of these wax packs today as they did in the 80's is foolish. We've already seen fake wrapped boxes in 2012 Prizm and National Treasures. It's only going to get worse.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by Spfld Ponies

Literally moved all my opened packs this morning. Never will I trust Steve Hart again... BBCE is obviously a SCAM. Two+ huge, high profile errors recently. PSA needs to cut ties!!

What do opened packs have to do with BBCE? Also, what alternative is there? I only know of a handful of people that may have the experience to what BBCE does. They haven't started their own business.

[peterose4hof]

The box only contained one Jordan sticker.

So presumably the two packs that were swapped out replaced two Jordan sticker packs.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by peterose4hof

The box only contained one Jordan sticker.

So presumably the two packs that were swapped out replaced two Jordan sticker packs.

Did BBCE release a statement yet? That's surprising if true. I can't imagine Steve wrapping a box without 3 Jordan stickers. Was the box opened on video?(Checking now)

Edit: the two packs replaced were 1 MJ sticker and 1 Kareem sticker

Apparently a letter from BBCE was paired with the box stating it contained only 1 MJ sticker. Strange he still did it.

[SHoCKBiZZLE]

Originally Posted by gomiamigo

It pretty clearly obvious he was lying to his customers. Not OK.

Defending that seems....odd.

Congrats? Im sure it does seem odd to you. From what I understand he just didnt publicaly state he was using a third party? Is this correct? As a consumer I dont see that being too big an issue at all. As long as I get my graded card back. Maybe you see it as an evil plot? I just dont see the situation as a huge negative on him. Had he threw his hands up and closed up shop and said "sorry guys, tough luck" - sure. But that didnt happen.

And I dont even watch his stuff or care one way or another about the man.

[hermanotarjeta]

Couldn’t whatnot easily reseal the box themselves after removing the desired cards and replacing them with bad cards and then pretend to open the BBCE authenticated box on camera just to disrepute BBCE?

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by peterose4hof

The box only contained one Jordan sticker.

So presumably the two packs that were swapped out replaced two Jordan sticker packs.

The one video states that one of pack had a Jordan sticker, one that the seal was broken but Steve said it was only lifted back far enough to see the Jordan sticker. The other had an Abdul-Jabber sticker

[SHoCKBiZZLE]

Originally Posted by SupermanBrandon

Defending him while knowing he was lying to his customers from the start and only paid the money because he was afraid of lawsuits...is really odd! But you do you.

Afraid of lawsuits? lol. All that man would have had to do would be file bankruptcy, close his business and wash his hands of it all. Which he COULD have done. And none of those customers would have gotten a dime, or their cards (unless they worked something out with PSA)

[SupermanBrandon]

Originally Posted by SHoCKBiZZLE

Afraid of lawsuits? lol. All that man would have had to do would be file bankruptcy, close his business and wash his hands of it all. Which he COULD have done. And none of those customers would have gotten a dime, or their cards (unless they worked something out with PSA)

Just to be clear...you're okay with him lying to his customers while handling both their money and their cards?

[SHoCKBiZZLE]

Originally Posted by SupermanBrandon

Just to be clear...you're okay with him lying to his customers while handling both their money and their cards?

Clarify the lying for me. From what I gather he accepted PSA submissions and used a third party to get them done. Which was a faster and cheaper option for his customers, because he was using someone with a direct link to PSA. He just didnt publicize that? And to be honest that is quite common.

Did he tell customer he was hand delivering them to PSA himself? If so, sure thats a lie, and not cool. But I havent seen that stated anywhere.