Crazy situation & rule in June 29 Pirates/Nationals game

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Yeah, reread what I said, I specifically said the one from the rulebook, which you said was exactly like this. It's not, the runner on third didn't properly tag up. Which also means that he didn't properly touch the bases in the correct order. The umps are the ones that rule if a runner has properly touched the bases in the correct order. He didn't and the third out was recorded before he did

That doesn't matter. The runner is not a force out regardless. THAT is why that was posted, not because every detail was exact same. I posted that in specific response to your claim that it was a force out. Nothing more.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

No dispute they got the call on the field wrong that the runner tagged up.

But everything that happened after that incorrect call was done according to the rules (i.e. that if the runner tagged as they called, the run counts and that the appeal could not take place after the players left the field).

Yeah, I figured, you are arguing something different. The only thing they got right was that an appeal after the team left the field.

They missed that an appeal was made by Adrianza staying on the base well after the third out was called. They missed ruling that the runner on third didn't properly tag up and therefore by touching home he touched the bases in the incorrect order,

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by whitmm

Yeah, I figured, you are arguing something different. The only thing they got right was that an appeal after the team left the field.

They missed that an appeal was made by Adrianza staying on the base well after the third out was called. They missed ruling that the runner on third didn't properly tag up and therefore by touching home he touched the bases in the incorrect order,

Well I still disagree an appeal was made. They hadn't even ruled him safe at home until long after the players left the field. So there was clearly no appeal made.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

Well I still disagree an appeal was made. They hadn't even ruled him safe at home until long after the players left the field. So there was clearly no appeal made.

See. They never should have ruled him safe at home because he never properly tagged up. In fact, there never should been an appeal needed.

Adrianza said the umpire told him he never saw him step on third. I don't know when this was said, but I'm guessing that it happened after the umps got together and the players left the field. That's on the ump for not paying attention. Watching the clip, Adrianza is staring at the ump, the ump looks at him while he's still making it clear he's on the base for reason.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by whitmm

See. They never should have ruled him safe at home because he never properly tagged up. In fact, there never should been an appeal needed.

Adrianza said the umpire told him he never saw him step on third. I don't know when this was said, but I'm guessing that it happened after the umps got together and the players left the field. That's on the ump for not paying attention. Watching the clip, Adrianza is staring at the ump, the ump looks at him while he's still making it clear he's on the base for reason.

Again, I agree they missed that call. But that doesn't change the fact that it couldn't be an appeal until the safe call was made (which came much later after the umps discussed it). The procedure after blowing the call was all correct. And had the defense not left the field until it got figured out, they would have gotten it right because they were following the rulebook. Their ONLY error was not realizing the runner didn't tag.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

Again, I agree they missed that call. But that doesn't change the fact that it couldn't be an appeal until the safe call was made (which came much later after the umps discussed it). The procedure after blowing the call was all correct. And had the defense not left the field until it got figured out, they would have gotten it right because they were following the rulebook. Their ONLY error was not realizing the runner didn't tag.

If you're doing a math problem and start with an error in the formula, everything after that is wrong. It doesn't matter if you follow the procedure correctly, because you started with incorrect information, every step in the procedure is wrong. Same thing here.

The safe call never should have been made. Especially after a long meeting like that. And I'm not sure how they could even make the error of not realizing the runner didn't tag. On that play, the runner on third is the main responsibility of the third base ump. The out on the line drive was called right away. How the third base ump doesn't see that the runner never returned to third base is beyond me.

Who cares if the Nationals left the field and therefore couldn't make an appeal? They never should have even needed to consider making an appeal, because how do the umps screw it up that bad. I'll admit, I used the wrong term in thinking it was a "force out" and that really wasn't anything I was arguing. Failing to touch the bases in the proper order (which in this case is going back and tagging third before heading home) means they never should have ruled the run scored.

It sounds like you are blaming the Nationals for the umps getting the call so wrong to begin with.

[Fenway55]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

Um, stepping on the base was to get the OTHER runner out, not the batter.

In response to my hypothetical, you wrote (direct quote, your words):

"Stepping on the base is the play to get the batter out, not an appeal."

to which I responded that the batter is out when the line drive was caught, not when the base was stepped on.

It now seems that maybe you made a typo and meant to type "runner" and not "batter" in that sentence, but you certainly can not blame me for there being a bit of confusion.

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

I read your scenario. You specifically said the first baseman steps on first after catching the ball to get the runner out. That is not an appeal, that is getting an out on a runner who did not tag up. Are you suggesting that every time you throw out a runner who strayed to far off the bag on a fly out it is considered an appeal? Because it most certainly is not.

You're right. Stepping on first base in my scenario is not an appeal. Similarly, in the Nats game, stepping on third is not an appeal. The runner who advanced is automatically out when the base was stepped on - even though that makes 4 outs in the inning.

Let's assume there were zero outs when the play started. Would the run still have counted and the inning continue with only 2 outs? After all, the 3rd baseman didn't announce "Appeal!"

[calculusdork]

Man, I was just commenting on the uniqueness of the situation and y'all turned it into a "everything the umps did wrong" discussion

Originally Posted by Fenway55

Similarly, in the Nats game, stepping on third is not an appeal. The runner who advanced is automatically out when the base was stepped on - even though that makes 4 outs in the inning.

See, I think that's the rub. Because tagging the runner who left second base early is the third out ... stepping on third base now does nothing. The Nationals have to appeal, then step on third ... which results in the "apparent fourth out" situation. Without an official appeal, the run scores.

Originally Posted by Fenway55

Let's assume there were zero outs when the play started. Would the run still have counted and the inning continue with only 2 outs? After all, the 3rd baseman didn't announce "Appeal!"

To the best of my understanding ... no. The appeal is necessary singularly because there are already three outs.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by calculusdork

Man, I was just commenting on the uniqueness of the situation and y'all turned it into a "everything the umps did wrong" discussion

That's because the only reason it was such a unique situation is because the umps got it so wrong. If the umps make the correct ruling to start with, especially with the long powwow, the run doesn't score and it just goes down as a double play.

[panamamyers]

Originally Posted by no10pin

Not saying it's the way it should work, but I think the issue is that as soon as he tags the runner on third, the inning is technically over. It would require more of an official appeal than just stepping on the bag right afterwards.

Had he stepped on the bag before tagging the runner, it would have been a non-issue, but since the 3rd out technically makes it a dead ball, the continuation of the play doesn't count.

100% this.

[Giroux]

Insanely dumb rules