Anderson Silva-GOAT

[Noles939913]

Originally Posted by k13

Everyone was undefeated at one point....
Beating Koscheck and Hendricks looks laughable now.

Who did Koscheck beat?
90% bums.

Same with Hendricks...all bums fights wins.

Okay and Mike Tyson looked laughable when he was getting knocked out by Danny Williams and quitting on his stool against Kevin McBride. Doesn’t mean he wasnt great in his prime. Koscheck and Hendricks both have numerous quality wins. Hell Hendricks was the literal champion.

[ejs23]

I enjoy a good "who's the GOAT?" debate. I don't have a real answer, but some input.

GSP is definitely in the conversation. 26-2, avenged both losses, won belts in 2 weight classes, a string of successful title defenses... tough to argue with that resume.

Jon Jones at 26-1. Guy kept winning and defending his title, they kept stripping him of it, and he'd just win it back. Still the banned substance issues hang over him. Tough to keep him out of the conversation though.

Anderson Silva is a dynamic fighter and is an all time great who went 34-11. In MMA it's tough to get into the GOAT conversation with 11 losses. But, I don't think it's all, or only, about record either. Plus 8 of those losses came at the end... before that 33-4, maybe he just stayed in too long, too many injuries caught up with him, etc.

Khabib at 29-0. Can't hold it against him that he started out fighting in Russia since he was born there. And going undefeated over 29 fights is pretty amazing... he's considered the GOAT by many. I like the kid but just not sure about that. Wish he had stayed in longer... maybe he'll come back.

Fedor. If I'm forced to choose, it might be Fedor. 40-6. A 10 year span in which he goes 28-0. I don't hold fighting in Pride against him, cause Pride was a solid organization. Would have been nice to see him fight in the UFC but it wasn't meant to be. And hey... when your peers see you as the GOAT there might be something to it. And GSP has called him the GOAT.

Matt Hughes at 45-9 with title wins and defenses. He was fun to watch. 2 losses each to GSP and Penn doesn't help his case, but he did beat each of them once too.

Volkanovski at 24-1 and on a 3 fight streak of successful title defenses. Too soon to know.

Wanderlei Silva. 35-14 but by the time he got to the UFC his best days were behind him, but he had some great fights in Pride. Plus, when you're nicknamed the Axe Murderer... you're the GOAT.

Royce? Rickson? Adesayna? Nunes?

[Noles939913]

Originally Posted by ejs23

I enjoy a good "who's the GOAT?" debate. I don't have a real answer, but some input.

GSP is definitely in the conversation. 26-2, avenged both losses, won belts in 2 weight classes, a string of successful title defenses... tough to argue with that resume.

Jon Jones at 26-1. Guy kept winning and defending his title, they kept stripping him of it, and he'd just win it back. Still the banned substance issues hang over him. Tough to keep him out of the conversation though.

Anderson Silva is a dynamic fighter and is an all time great who went 34-11. In MMA it's tough to get into the GOAT conversation with 11 losses. But, I don't think it's all, or only, about record either. Plus 8 of those losses came at the end... before that 33-4, maybe he just stayed in too long, too many injuries caught up with him, etc.

Khabib at 29-0. Can't hold it against him that he started out fighting in Russia since he was born there. And going undefeated over 29 fights is pretty amazing... he's considered the GOAT by many. I like the kid but just not sure about that. Wish he had stayed in longer... maybe he'll come back.

Fedor. If I'm forced to choose, it might be Fedor. 40-6. A 10 year span in which he goes 28-0. I don't hold fighting in Pride against him, cause Pride was a solid organization. Would have been nice to see him fight in the UFC but it wasn't meant to be. And hey... when your peers see you as the GOAT there might be something to it. And GSP has called him the GOAT.

Matt Hughes at 45-9 with title wins and defenses. He was fun to watch. 2 losses each to GSP and Penn doesn't help his case, but he did beat each of them once too.

Volkanovski at 24-1 and on a 3 fight streak of successful title defenses. Too soon to know.

Wanderlei Silva. 35-14 but by the time he got to the UFC his best days were behind him, but he had some great fights in Pride. Plus, when you're nicknamed the Axe Murderer... you're the GOAT.

Royce? Rickson? Adesayna? Nunes?

For argument’s sake I’ll throw in Dan Henderson (32-15) The icon of American badassery is the only man to win a UFC tournament, a title in Rings, titles in two weight divisions in Pride, and a title in Strikeforce. Fought from Middleweight to Heavyweight with success through all three. Knocked out the also legendary Fedor while weighing in at 206 pounds. Most likely has the toughest strength of schedule in MMA history. He’s also a really friendly guy.

[ejs23]

Originally Posted by Noles939913

For argument’s sake I’ll throw in Dan Henderson (32-15) The icon of American badassery is the only man to win a UFC tournament, a title in Rings, titles in two weight divisions in Pride, and a title in Strikeforce. Fought from Middleweight to Heavyweight with success through all three. Knocked out the also legendary Fedor while weighing in at 206 pounds. Most likely has the toughest strength of schedule in MMA history. He’s also a really friendly guy.

No doubt. He was always a favorite of mine and one of the reasons I always saw Pride as just as good as the UFC. Plus an Olympic level wrestler before going to MMA.

[Ty Hope]

Originally Posted by Brobocop

It's an interesting conversation that's for sure. I just know that for years I was sick of hearing about how Fedor was the greatest fighter ever. Glad that discussion trailed way off.

Fedor went undefeated for 8 years, beat prime Nog twice, prime CroCop (I was at the fight ), and beat multiple UFC champions. Very few ever retire undefeated. Whether he’s the GOAT or not is a discussion to have, but no one can deny his greatness. He absolutely dominated during his prime.

Pride also had a deeper HW division than UFC at the time.

[k13]

Originally Posted by Noles939913

Okay and Mike Tyson looked laughable when he was getting knocked out by Danny Williams and quitting on his stool against Kevin McBride. Doesn’t mean he wasnt great in his prime. Koscheck and Hendricks both have numerous quality wins. Hell Hendricks was the literal champion.

Tyson is another overrated "goat"

Beat bunch of tomatoes his whole career as soon as he fought anyone good Hollyfield/Lewis he lost bad.

Never really beat anyone good in his whole career.
Just bums and past their prime fighters.

[k13]

Who did Tyson really beat?

Nothing worth talking about and don't say Spinks or holmes.

[Noles939913]

Originally Posted by k13

Who did Tyson really beat?

Nothing worth talking about and don't say Spinks or holmes.

What’s wrong with the Spinks or Holmes wins? Both are legitimate HOFers. Yes the Heavyweight division was mediocre during his time but to act like he beat a bunch of bums or scrubs is simply disingenuous. He beat Razor Ruddock twice which were good wins and also beat Tyrell Biggs which was a great win over an undefeated Olympic Gold Medalist.

Your boxing knowledge is right up there with your grammar/spelling.

He was certainly overrated especially by kids today who never actually saw him fight and certainly isn’t the GOAT as there are about 50-60 boxers ahead of him in that line. There’s no denying he was a legitimate cultural phenomenon in his day though.

[Crashingwaves]

Last week I posted about the GOAT debate on IG... I own the top graded Silva, GSP, Jones red auto rookies and shared the pics...

IG is huskytabby to check it out

Originally Posted by Noles939913

What’s wrong with the Spinks or Holmes wins? Both are legitimate HOFers. Yes the Heavyweight division was mediocre during his time but to act like he beat a bunch of bums or scrubs is simply disingenuous. He beat Razor Ruddock twice which were good wins and also beat Tyrell Biggs which was a great win over an undefeated Olympic Gold Medalist.

Your boxing knowledge is right up there with your grammar/spelling.

He was certainly overrated especially by kids today who never actually saw him fight and certainly isn’t the GOAT as there are about 50-60 boxers ahead of him in that line. There’s no denying he was a legitimate cultural phenomenon in his day though.

[ejs23]

Originally Posted by Crashingwaves

Last week I posted about the GOAT debate on IG... I own the top graded Silva, GSP, Jones red auto rookies and shared the pics...

IG is huskytabby to check it out

I just checked it out... awesome stuff!

[Crashingwaves]

Thanks!

Originally Posted by ejs23

I just checked it out... awesome stuff!

[k13]

Originally Posted by Noles939913

What’s wrong with the Spinks or Holmes wins? Both are legitimate HOFers. Yes the Heavyweight division was mediocre during his time but to act like he beat a bunch of bums or scrubs is simply disingenuous. He beat Razor Ruddock twice which were good wins and also beat Tyrell Biggs which was a great win over an undefeated Olympic Gold Medalist.

Your boxing knowledge is right up there with your grammar/spelling.

He was certainly overrated especially by kids today who never actually saw him fight and certainly isn’t the GOAT as there are about 50-60 boxers ahead of him in that line. There’s no denying he was a legitimate cultural phenomenon in his day though.

Holmes was like 40 years old and way past his prime.
Tyson wasted his prime fighting too many bums but there's too much ducking fights in boxing anyway.

Lewis/Holyfield fights should have been a lot sooner.

[Noles939913]

Holmes was 38 and was 48-2 with his only two losses being close decisions to Michael Spinks. He wasn’t “way past his prime”. The Holyfield fight would have happened next if Tyson wasn’t upset by Buster Douglas. Keep showing the world how little you actually know about boxing because it’s funny when idiots like you put it all on full display. It’s also funny how you failed to address the other wins i mentioned because you probably have no actual clue who they are.

[Algo]

Originally Posted by k13

Tyson is another overrated "goat"

Beat bunch of tomatoes his whole career as soon as he fought anyone good Hollyfield/Lewis he lost bad.

Never really beat anyone good in his whole career.
Just bums and past their prime fighters.

35 fights in 4 years, steamrolling everyone to become the youngest heavyweight Champ in history before his mentor died--Yeah "overrated" for sure.

[Noles939913]

Originally Posted by Algo

35 fights in 4 years, steamrolling everyone to become the youngest heavyweight Champ in history before his mentor died--Yeah "overrated" for sure.

I would argue he has become overrated by kids today who never actually saw him fight. He’s become a mythical urban legend who could KO any boxer who ever lived as long as he was in his prime. Fact is Evander Holyfield would’ve given him all kinds of hell even with 10 Cus D’Amato’s in his corner. The Ring Magazine had him ranked as the 72nd best boxer of all-time which I feel is pretty accurate.

[Algo]

Originally Posted by Noles939913

I would argue he has become overrated by kids today who never actually saw him fight. He’s become a mythical urban legend who could KO any boxer who ever lived as long as he was in his prime. Fact is Evander Holyfield would’ve given him all kinds of hell even with 10 Cus D’Amato’s in his corner. The Ring Magazine had him ranked as the 72nd best boxer of all-time which I feel is pretty accurate.

Ring magazine also put Marciano and Dempsey top 20 all time and Lewis rank 53 when he would've knocked them out cold.
Pryor top 40 when his best comp was 2 over the hill HOF' and he needed drugs to beat one of them, so I'll take what they say with a grain of salt.

What would have happened if Holyfield Tyson had fought 10 years prior is all speculation and anyone's guess. Evander while a brilliant fighter, his legacy is somewhat tainted by steroid use.

The fact is like him or loathe him, nobody saw a heavyweight as dominant as Tyson since Joe Louis and that's why he's a generational icon almost 40 years later

[Noles939913]

Originally Posted by Algo

Ring magazine also put Marciano and Dempsey top 20 all time and Lewis rank 53 when he would've knocked them out cold.
Pryor top 40 when his best comp was 2 over the hill HOF' and he needed drugs to beat one of them, so I'll take what they say with a grain of salt.

What would have happened if Holyfield Tyson had fought 10 years prior is all speculation and anyone's guess. Evander while a brilliant fighter, his legacy is somewhat tainted by steroid use.

The fact is like him or loathe him, nobody saw a heavyweight as dominant as Tyson since Joe Louis and that's why he's a generational icon almost 40 years later

Well it’s dumb to compare fighters in fantasy matchups across generations because of the advancements in training, technology, etc. And the fact Marciano wouldn’t even have been a Heavyweight if he fought today. Lewis would have had like 70 pounds on him lol. It’s more about comparing resumes/skill sets vs. who would beat who because Lewis would obviously kill Ray Robinson or Floyd Mayweather Jr. as well but it doesn’t make him a better fighter necessarily.

And you describing Pryor sounds a lot like Tyson’s resume. His only two wins over fellow HOFers were against an over the hill (yet still good) Holmes who was literally coming out of retirement and a natural Light Heavyweight in Spinks. Like it or not Tyson ruled a very weak era of Heavyweights.

Sorry to burst your bubble but Tyson was on the juice too. Forget about the rumors even but the fact he would put any drug known to man in his body but drew the line at steroids. Yeah okay. Holyfield was all wrong for Tyson regardless of when they fought. Tyson was a frontrunner who would literally quit or checkout when things weren’t going exactly to plan. Holyfield was a gamebred Pit Bull in the ring (dirty tactics included) who showed he was willing to die in there.

[Algo]

Originally Posted by Noles939913

Well it’s dumb to compare fighters in fantasy matchups across generations because of the advancements in training, technology, etc. And the fact Marciano wouldn’t even have been a Heavyweight if he fought today. Lewis would have had like 70 pounds on him lol. It’s more about comparing resumes/skill sets vs. who would beat who because Lewis would obviously kill Ray Robinson or Floyd Mayweather Jr. as well but it doesn’t make him a better fighter necessarily.

And you describing Pryor sounds a lot like Tyson’s resume. His only two wins over fellow HOFers were against an over the hill (yet still good) Holmes who was literally coming out of retirement and a natural Light Heavyweight in Spinks. Like it or not Tyson ruled a very weak era of Heavyweights.

Sorry to burst your bubble but Tyson was on the juice too. Forget about the rumors even but the fact he would put any drug known to man in his body but drew the line at steroids. Yeah okay. Holyfield was all wrong for Tyson regardless of when they fought. Tyson was a frontrunner who would literally quit or checkout when things weren’t going exactly to plan. Holyfield was a gamebred Pit Bull in the ring (dirty tactics included) who showed he was willing to die in there.

True, but Lewis like Ali fought in a golden age of heavyweight boxing, and avenged all his losses. So by default he should be be top 20.

I know Tyson detractors talk about weak competition, or it could be argued that he was such a phenom that he made it look easy (like any genius of their respective craft).

Unfortunately sometimes the brightest flames burn out the fastest, and drugs or not we can't pretend Evander fought the same fighter in 1996 as he would have in 1986.

[Crashingwaves]

Being 53, I grew up in the Tyson era... he was feared in ways no other boxer had been before... it was amazing hype that was realized in several spectacular KOs and he became a cultural sensation.... then the down fall.

Reminds me of Conor... spectacular rise, feared fighter... casual fans hyped him as the best eva but before full potential could be realized, the downfall occurs. Too much praise from fans and critics, $$$, coke and partying and not enough focus.

While both accomplished a lot... they are remember as much for the hype as the results.

Originally Posted by Algo

True, but Lewis like Ali fought in a golden age of heavyweight boxing, and avenged all his losses. So by default he should be be top 20.

I know Tyson detractors talk about weak competition, or it could be argued that he was such a phenom that he made it look easy (like any genius of their respective craft).

Unfortunately sometimes the brightest flames burn out the fastest, and drugs or not we can't pretend Evander fought the same fighter in 1996 as he would have in 1986.

[Noles939913]

Originally Posted by Algo

True, but Lewis like Ali fought in a golden age of heavyweight boxing, and avenged all his losses. So by default he should be be top 20.

I know Tyson detractors talk about weak competition, or it could be argued that he was such a phenom that he made it look easy (like any genius of their respective craft).

Unfortunately sometimes the brightest flames burn out the fastest, and drugs or not we can't pretend Evander fought the same fighter in 1996 as he would have in 1986.

Well they never would have fought in 1986 as Holyfield was plying his trade as a Cruiserweight during that time. However Tyson ruined the matchup from happening earlier due to getting knocked out by Buster Douglas as Holyfield was set to get the winner. He would then end up steamrolling Douglas in 4 Rounds.

I also don’t believe Lewis fought in any kind of “Golden Era of Heavyweights”. He beat three HOFers but two of them were past their prime (Tyson and Holyfield) and the third he was losing 58-56 on all three scorecards before the fight was stopped due to cuts (Klitschko). He then abruptly retired after initially agreeing to a rematch. Yes it’s nice he avenged both of his losses but the fact he was even knocked out by both McCall and Rahman actually hurts his legacy as neither one was all that special.

[Algo]

Originally Posted by Noles939913

Well they never would have fought in 1986 as Holyfield was plying his trade as a Cruiserweight during that time. However Tyson ruined the matchup from happening earlier due to getting knocked out by Buster Douglas as Holyfield was set to get the winner. He would then end up steamrolling Douglas in 4 Rounds.

I also don’t believe Lewis fought in any kind of “Golden Era of Heavyweights”. He beat three HOFers but two of them were past their prime (Tyson and Holyfield) and the third he was losing 58-56 on all three scorecards before the fight was stopped due to cuts (Klitschko). He then abruptly retired after initially agreeing to a rematch. Yes it’s nice he avenged both of his losses but the fact he was even knocked out by both McCall and Rahman actually hurts his legacy as neither one was all that special.

Holyfield was fine and not past it as you say, the difference is Lewis was better than him.

Lewis was robbed in their first fight in 1999 as it was ruled a draw even when he completely outboxed Holyfield.

Don't forget the ref gave Douglas a long count.
He performed on the greatest night of his life fueled by the death of his mother, although everyone knows Tyson was not the same once Cus died--Tysons biggest adversary was always Mike Tyson.

The 90's was clearly the second golden age in heavyweight boxing so I'm unsure why you refuse to acknowledge this?

Notable Lewis wins:
Tua (an underrated beast), Klitschko, Holyfield, Mercer, Razor Ruddock, Briggs (Lewis was only the 2nd person to stop him).

Riddick Bowe famously didn't want that smoke with Lennox, and don't forget who beat "the real deal" on more than one occasion.

[Noles939913]

Originally Posted by Algo

Holyfield was fine and not past it as you say, the difference is Lewis was better than him.

Lewis was robbed in their first fight in 1999 as it was ruled a draw even when he completely outboxed Holyfield.

Don't forget the ref gave Douglas a long count.
He performed on the greatest night of his life fueled by the death of his mother, although everyone knows Tyson was not the same once Cus died--Tysons biggest adversary was always Mike Tyson.

The 90's was clearly the second golden age in heavyweight boxing so I'm unsure why you refuse to acknowledge this?

Notable Lewis wins:
Tua (an underrated beast), Klitschko, Holyfield, Mercer, Razor Ruddock, Briggs (Lewis was only the 2nd person to stop him).

Riddick Bowe famously didn't want that smoke with Lennox, and don't forget who beat "the real deal" on more than one occasion.

Lol Holyfield was in his late 30s and had a ton of fight miles on him when he fought Lewis both times. In no way was he in his prime.

“Long counts” happen all the time as it’s a human doing it after all. The fact is Douglas beat the count and Tyson couldn’t.

[Algo]

Originally Posted by Noles939913

Lol Holyfield was in his late 30s and had a ton of fight miles on him when he fought Lewis both times. In no way was he in his prime.

“Long counts” happen all the time as it’s a human doing it after all. The fact is Douglas beat the count and Tyson couldn’t.

Lol quit making excuse's he's 3 years older than Lewis this ain't some Golovkin/Canelo thing where 3G is close to 9 years older.

Lennox was almost 38 years old when he beat a prime almost 260lbs Vitali Klitschko--Now that's greatness.
At his best he was levels above Riddick Bowe and would've beaten Holyfield earlier just the same

[Noles939913]

Originally Posted by Algo

Lol quit making excuse's he's 3 years older than Lewis this ain't some Golovkin/Canelo thing where 3G is close to 9 years older.

Lennox was almost 38 years old when he beat a prime almost 260lbs Vitali Klitschko--Now that's greatness.
At his best he was levels above Riddick Bowe and would've beaten Holyfield earlier just the same

Okay and Holyfield was four years older than Mike Tyson and you even tried alluding that he was past his prime at the ripe old age of 30. Lewis was also down on all three cards when the fight was stopped against Klitschko and wanted absolutely nothing to do with a rematch.

[Algo]

Originally Posted by Noles939913

Okay and Holyfield was four years older than Mike Tyson and you even tried alluding that he was past his prime at the ripe old age of 30. Lewis was also down on all three cards when the fight was stopped against Klitschko and wanted absolutely nothing to do with a rematch.

You're full of excuse, Lewis was completely washed up at this point in his career, had been inactive for a year, and still got the best of a taller, heavier fighter who would go on to dominate the division over next 9 years.

Yeah I get it, you love the "head-butt King" Evander and enjoy trying to discredit the achievements of Lennox and Tyson--but this discussion is over