Who's the Greatest NBA player of all time? Michael Jordan Or Lebron

[rats60]

Originally Posted by daeve

I didn't save all my points in one nice little neat location unfortunately

When I have some more time I will try to find/pull them all and elaborate though

I can say for just a few bullet points on the 'why' - it's gotta come down to how much you value peak/longevity/overall domination / overall 'unstoppability' factor. I think there's some kind of formula in there but it'd take a while to fully figure out and there'd still be some subjectivity because of the massive difference in eras/stats available, etc.

Overall though, I think Kareem offers the greatest combo of those factors I mentioned. With MJ next, and maybe if he had more longevity I can see an argument for him overtaking KAJ. I think these are definitely the top two though.

Next tier with Wilt and Lebron is interesting... Wilt definitely had some holes in his game, but will likely stand the test of time as the true apex athlete. Probably the one guy I'd most want to see in the context of the modern era. Lebron may be #2 all-time in 'apex athlete' for me, not quite as otherworldly as Wilt in measurables but is certainly proving his mettle with his longevity. A little similar to my tier 1 argument with KAJ/MJ.

Next in a tier of his own is Russell, mostly because I think you can draw a definite marker that he doesn't have the offensive ability of the first 4, but will probably never be surpassed as a defender/winner.

How was Kareem dominant? He led the NBA in points 2 times, rebounds 1 time and shooting percentage 1 time. His only major record is most points and LeBron will break that soon. His peak was very short.

[wigglestrue]

Originally Posted by rats60

How was Kareem dominant? He led the NBA in points 2 times, rebounds 1 time and shooting percentage 1 time. His only major record is most points and LeBron will break that soon. His peak was very short.

It's possible that Kareem's dominance may be everrrr-so-slightly exaggerated. But you did miss how he led the league in blocks 4 times. And black ink (leading the league in any category in a given year) is not necessarily the best statistical way to measure dominance, not for the basic categories, anyway. That goes for Lebron, too, the fact that he didn't win a lot of scoring titles isn't really all that important, he was in the mix for the scoring title for a long time, just like Kareem. The better statistical measure if you want to know how dominant a player was would be a composite metric like Win Shares or PER or whatever. Lebron led the league in WS and PER 5 times each over 6 seasons. Kareem led the league in WS and PER 9 times over 11 seasons. So yeah, I would say Kareem was more dominant. (Caveat: The NBA was a little weaker during most of the 70s than it was in the 80s and 90s because of how much top talent was in the ABA. Probably still a harder game to play back then than today's glorified layup-and-three drills where travelling is legal and playing tough individual defense is banned.)

[rats60]

Originally Posted by wigglestrue

It's possible that Kareem's dominance may be everrrr-so-slightly exaggerated. But you did miss how he led the league in blocks 4 times. And black ink (leading the league in any category in a given year) is not necessarily the best statistical way to measure dominance, not for the basic categories, anyway. That goes for Lebron, too, the fact that he didn't win a lot of scoring titles isn't really all that important, he was in the mix for the scoring title for a long time, just like Kareem. The better statistical measure if you want to know how dominant a player was would be a composite metric like Win Shares or PER or whatever. Lebron led the league in WS and PER 5 times each over 6 seasons. Kareem led the league in WS and PER 9 times over 11 seasons. So yeah, I would say Kareem was more dominant. (Caveat: The NBA was a little weaker during most of the 70s than it was in the 80s and 90s because of how much top talent was in the ABA. Probably still a harder game to play back then than today's glorified layup-and-three drills where travelling is legal and playing tough individual defense is banned.)

WS and PER are meaningless. There is no standard measure with advanced metrics. People just cherry pick the advanced metric that suits their argument. In the MVP thread, BPM is the one that matters.

LeBron's lack of black ink hurts his claims, at least to a top 2 spot. He does have records that Kareem doesn't so that helps. He also has 4 rings as the best player on his team. Kareem has 1, he would have a second if he hadn't chose to sit out the clinching game in 1980. That is why LeBron is above Kareem. However, you have guys that dominated the NBA, in black ink and in the record books. You can't just dismiss that because your guy wasn't good enough to do the same.

[Above the Rim]

Oh, my ... How was Kareem dominant ? Really? Umm, lets see:

Record 6 time NBA Most Valuable Player
Record 19 NBA All-Star games
15 Time All NBA selection
11 Time NBA All Defensive Team
6 NBA Championships
2 times NBA Finals MVP
Julius Erving, "greatest basketball player of all-time."
High School won 71 consecutive games
UCLA 3 consecutive NCAA National Championships
Record 3 time NCAA Tournament MVP
First overall pick in 1969 NBA Draft

[bberns]

Originally Posted by rats60

WS and PER are meaningless. There is no standard measure with advanced metrics. People just cherry pick the advanced metric that suits their argument. In the MVP thread, BPM is the one that matters.

LeBron's lack of black ink hurts his claims, at least to a top 2 spot. He does have records that Kareem doesn't so that helps. He also has 4 rings as the best player on his team. Kareem has 1, he would have a second if he hadn't chose to sit out the clinching game in 1980. That is why LeBron is above Kareem. However, you have guys that dominated the NBA, in black ink and in the record books. You can't just dismiss that because your guy wasn't good enough to do the same.

I'm sorry, but dismissing PER and WS in favor or black ink /per game stats is silly.

Also, are you saying that it is better to lead the league in scoring 2x and not be in the mix otherwise than consistently being in the top 3 or top 5 for 10-12 years but only leading the league 1x.

PER and WS are useful blunt instruments (I admit there are better more modern formulations, but we don't have historical data for them) because they seek to capture a holistic impact as opposed to a single statistic/skill.

[daeve]

Originally Posted by rats60

How was Kareem dominant? He led the NBA in points 2 times, rebounds 1 time and shooting percentage 1 time. His only major record is most points and LeBron will break that soon. His peak was very short.

Conveniently leaving out 6 MVP's?

Led in FG's made 5x

Had to sit in college for 4 years, his scoring record would otherwise be unbeatable - but sure, celebrate Lebron, who gets 4 years handicap.

What did KaJ do in college? - 3x champ, 3x all-Tourny, 2x POY - averaged 29ppg in his 1st season - you think he wouldn't score in the pros? Put a massive asterisk next to Lebron's name when he "breaks the record".

[wigglestrue]

"your guy"

I am a Celtics homer from Boston, I hate the Lakers, and I despise most of Kareem's woke political positions these days. He's not my guy. That said, it's amazing what defending the past from upstarts intent on overthrowing it will do for one's objectivity. In a sense, every player from every era except the last 10 years or so is my guy, I guess. But otherwise, I have reasons to be extremely biased against Kareem. He's still in my Top 5, both The Greatest and The Best subcategories.

Might as well post my Top 5's, see if I feel any differently this year. Hmmm.

Best

1. Jordan
2. Bird
3. Wilt
4. Kareem
5. Lebron

Greatest

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Lebron

Eh...seems about right. (Yes, I think Bird is the second best player ever. The key element that people always miss is his extraordinary defense, he was such a great team defender at his peak that he belongs in any Top 25 Defenders Ever discussion.)

[rats60]

Originally Posted by daeve

Conveniently leaving out 6 MVP's?

Led in FG's made 5x

Had to sit in college for 4 years, his scoring record would otherwise be unbeatable - but sure, celebrate Lebron, who gets 4 years handicap.

What did KaJ do in college? - 3x champ, 3x all-Tourny, 2x POY - averaged 29ppg in his 1st season - you think he wouldn't score in the pros? Put a massive asterisk next to Lebron's name when he "breaks the record".

Kareem chose to play for the 2 time defending National Champions. He went to a stacked team that would win 10 National Championships in 12 seasons. I wouldn't give Kareem too much credit. After Kareem left UCLA, they won 2 championships with his "leftovers." Then Bill Walton showed up and UCLA won 88 games in a row and extended the streak to 7 championships in a row.

Do I think he would have scored in the pros those 4 years? No, I don't think he was ready. He would have had to play against Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell in their prime 8 or 9 times each. I only wish that had happened because they would have put him in his place and we wouldn't have to have these dumb conversations. Wilt blocked 10 shots in a game against the Bucks and Kareem. What would he have done to a 18-19 year old when Wilt was in his prime? Lead the NBA in anything those 4 years? Not a chance.

LeBron has averaged 27.1 PPG coming into them NBA out of HS. Kareem averaged 24.6 with the benefit of 4 years of extra development and not having to go up against the 2 best centers of all time in their prime. Asterisk next to LeBron's record? Lol, No.

[Unwrapit]

As a you young NBA/Martial arts fan this was the most impressive part for me from his era, training with Bruce Lee.

Abdul-Jabbar trained often with Lee, who taught him a multitude of techniques that later became beneficial to his NBA career. A few years later, Lee personally invited Abdul-Jabbar – who was playing for the Milwaukee Bucks at the time – to Hong Kong to film a fight scene for Game of Death.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rats60]

Originally Posted by bberns

I'm sorry, but dismissing PER and WS in favor or black ink /per game stats is silly.

Also, are you saying that it is better to lead the league in scoring 2x and not be in the mix otherwise than consistently being in the top 3 or top 5 for 10-12 years but only leading the league 1x.

PER and WS are useful blunt instruments (I admit there are better more modern formulations, but we don't have historical data for them) because they seek to capture a holistic impact as opposed to a single statistic/skill.

No, I am saying that when guys lead in scoring 10 times or 7 times that is dominant. Leading 2 times is not. Bob McAdoo led the NBA in scoring 3 years in a row when Kareem was supposed to be dominating the league. That doesn't happen if Kareem is truly dominant.

PER and WS useless for the same reasons. The highest single season PER is 32. Using known blocked shots data for Wilt Chamberlain, it is estimated Wilt's career PER was ~ 37.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Above the Rim

Oh, my ... How was Kareem dominant ? Really? Umm, lets see:

Julius Erving, "greatest basketball player of all-time."

Is that the same guy as Dr. J? The Dr J who played in the NBA and doesn't have Kareem on his all time team, but has Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain on his all time 5?

[i4gotmyid]

Originally Posted by rats60

Kareem chose to play for the 2 time defending National Champions. He went to a stacked team that would win 10 National Championships in 12 seasons. I wouldn't give Kareem too much credit. After Kareem left UCLA, they won 2 championships with his "leftovers." Then Bill Walton showed up and UCLA won 88 games in a row and extended the streak to 7 championships in a row.

Do I think he would have scored in the pros those 4 years? No, I don't think he was ready. He would have had to play against Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell in their prime 8 or 9 times each. I only wish that had happened because they would have put him in his place and we wouldn't have to have these dumb conversations. Wilt blocked 10 shots in a game against the Bucks and Kareem. What would he have done to a 18-19 year old when Wilt was in his prime? Lead the NBA in anything those 4 years? Not a chance.

LeBron has averaged 27.1 PPG coming into them NBA out of HS. Kareem averaged 24.6 with the benefit of 4 years of extra development and not having to go up against the 2 best centers of all time in their prime. Asterisk next to LeBron's record? Lol, No.

Um...The NCAA gave him a lot of credit...they made the Lew Alcindor rule...

[Above the Rim]

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Career highlights and awards
6× NBA champion (1971, 1980, 1982, 1985, 1987, 1988)
2× NBA Finals MVP (1971, 1985)
6× NBA Most Valuable Player (1971, 1972, 1974, 1976, 1977, 1980)
19× NBA All-Star (1970–1977, 1979–1989)
10× All-NBA First Team (1971–1974, 1976, 1977, 1980, 1981, 1984, 1986)
5× All-NBA Second Team (1970, 1978, 1979, 1983, 1985)
5× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1974, 1975, 1979–1981)
6× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1970, 1971, 1976–1978, 1984)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1970)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (1970)
2× NBA scoring champion (1971, 1972)
NBA rebounding champion (1976)
4× NBA blocks leader (1975, 1976, 1979, 1980)
NBA 35th Anniversary Team
NBA 50th Anniversary Team
NBA 75th Anniversary Team
No. 33 retired by Milwaukee Bucks
No. 33 retired by Los Angeles Lakers
3× NCAA champion (1967–1969)
3× NCAA Final Four Most Outstanding Player (1967–1969)
3× National college player of the year (1967–1969)
3× Consensus first-team All-American (1967–1969)
No. 33 retired by UCLA Bruins
2× Mr. Basketball USA (1964, 1965)
3× First-team Parade All-American (1963–1965)
Presidential Medal of Freedom (2016)
As head coach:

USBL champion (2002)
As assistant coach:

2× NBA champion (2009, 2010)
Career NBA statistics
Points 38,387 (24.6 ppg)
Rebounds 17,440 (11.2 rpg)
Assists 5,660 (3.6 apg)
Stats Edit this at Wikidata at NBA.com
Stats Edit this at Wikidata at Basketball-Reference.com
Basketball Hall of Fame as player
College Basketball Hall of Fame
Inducted in 2006
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (born Ferdinand Lewis Alcindor Jr.; April 16, 1947) is an American former professional basketball player who played 20 seasons in the National Basketball Association (NBA) for the Milwaukee Bucks and the Los Angeles Lakers. During his career as a center, Abdul-Jabbar was a record six-time NBA Most Valuable Player (MVP), a record 19-time NBA All-Star, a 15-time All-NBA selection, and an 11-time NBA All-Defensive Team member. A member of six NBA championship teams as a player and two more as an assistant coach, Abdul-Jabbar twice was voted NBA Finals MVP. He was named to the league's 35th, 50th and 75th anniversary teams. NBA coach Pat Riley and players Isiah Thomas and Julius Erving called him the greatest basketball player of all time.[1][2][3][4

Please note the last sentence.

But yeah, you are probably right. Kareem was a scrub. Took advantage of playing with other players much better. Was simply a stat accumulator. Couldn't hold a candle to any true all-stars. And all the experts, players and coaches who have ranked players through the years have it all wrong. Totally overrated. Sell all your Jabbar cards now while you still can before everyone figures out he was just a marginal role player at best.