The PED-Free Projection for Bonds & Clemens

[Noles939913]

Originally Posted by mfw13

It's funny that articles and threads like this only focus on Bonds' hitting, and ignore two other reasons why he was arguably the greatest all-around position player other than his godfather.

Bonds is arguably one of the greatest defensively LF in history, if not the greatest. He won eight Gold Gloves, and was superb at cutting off balls hit down the left-field line and holding hitters to singles.

Likewise, he had 514 stolen bases. He's 34th all-time in SB, and the only member of the 500-500 club. In fact, no other member of the 500 SB Club has even 300 career HR!

And neither defensive ability or baserunning ability are materially affected by PED use....

Yes because being able to run faster actually hurts defensive and base running ability.

[1800gambler]

Speaking of PEDs and Clemens. The guy McNamee that kept the syringe stored for a decade that he injected Clemens with at some point, moved into the house on the corner of my block a few years ago. I never see him though. Only time I saw him was when he was in the town paper for a blackout dwi crash in the middle of town at like 3pm on a weekday or something like that haha I forget exactly

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by Noles939913

Yes because being able to run faster actually hurts defensive and base running ability.

I've yet to see any articles arguing that PED's increase running speed....just strength.....

Besides, defense and stealing bases has a lot more to due with baseball skills, as opposed to pure running speed.

[Noles939913]

Originally Posted by mfw13

I've yet to see any articles arguing that PED's increase running speed....just strength.....

Besides, defense and stealing bases has a lot more to due with baseball skills, as opposed to pure running speed.

Why in the world would Ben Johnson, Marion Jones, Maurice Greene, etc. use them then?

[chezball]

Originally Posted by Noles939913

Why in the world would Ben Johnson, Marion Jones, Maurice Greene, etc. use them then?

To heal faster, ha ha.

[rms13]

Originally Posted by Noles939913

Why in the world would Ben Johnson, Marion Jones, Maurice Greene, etc. use them then?

All top sprinters have thighs/hamstrings that are bigger than some bodybuilders. Obviously stronger muscles increase speed. You can ask why do any athletes take PEDs. Why have all top cyclists been using PEDs? Why are swimmers using them? Why are skiers using them? Because they enhance physical performance.

[ScooterMcRibs]

Judas was projected to be a Hall of Fame apostle, but we judge people (and players) by the entirety of their actions, not based on "what ifs".

[ken161]

Originally Posted by jhssketchcards

I’d argue Clemens was declining when he started juicing. Look at 1993-1996… then as John Madden says “BOOM!”. He went from 40-39 WL from 1993-1995 with 0 CY top finishes then magically 41-13 in 1997-1998 and BTB CY.

This is what I've always thought. Many hardcore steroid users have a certain "look" to them. I recently watched Clemens' 20-strikeout game against Seattle in 1986. He didn't have that 'roid rage look to him back then. But by the time he was throwing Piazza's shattered bat back at him in the 2000 World Series, Clemens looked like an East German shot putter from the 1976 Olympics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNTWUPsPrJ8

[CoachBruno]

Originally Posted by cardsin47

They were both great - juice can’t change good to great. It changes great to greater

Yes, it can turn good to great. As a professional baseball player who chose not to juice, but who saw teammates change the trajectory of their careers, I can absolutely confirm that it can have that type of impact.

The argument that “juice can’t help you hit 70 HR” is specious at best. The benefits are absolutely immense. Juice allows you to move the bat faster and thereby wait longer to identify pitches before deciding to swing. And then you hit the ball harder when you make contact. What else do you need to understand??

They cheated and it does not make it ok just because “others cheated too”. They got millions of dollars for cheating. They shouldn’t also be put in the hall. Those of us who stayed clean got cheated and you want to put them on a pedestal? F**k those guys.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by CoachBruno

Yes, it can turn good to great. As a professional baseball player who chose not to juice, but who saw teammates change the trajectory of their careers, I can absolutely confirm that it can have that type of impact.

The argument that “juice can’t help you hit 70 HR” is specious at best. The benefits are absolutely immense. Juice allows you to move the bat faster and thereby wait longer to identify pitches before deciding to swing. And then you hit the ball harder when you make contact. What else do you need to understand??

They cheated and it does not make it ok just because “others cheated too”. They got millions of dollars for cheating. They shouldn’t also be put in the hall. Those of us who stayed clean got cheated and you want to put them on a pedestal? F**k those guys.

Are you a Yankees fan? I can tell you of at least two living Hall of Fame former Yankees who used steroids.

[89Giants]

Originally Posted by CoachBruno

Yes, it can turn good to great. As a professional baseball player who chose not to juice, but who saw teammates change the trajectory of their careers, I can absolutely confirm that it can have that type of impact.

The argument that “juice can’t help you hit 70 HR” is specious at best. The benefits are absolutely immense. Juice allows you to move the bat faster and thereby wait longer to identify pitches before deciding to swing. And then you hit the ball harder when you make contact. What else do you need to understand??

They cheated and it does not make it ok just because “others cheated too”. They got millions of dollars for cheating. They shouldn’t also be put in the hall. Those of us who stayed clean got cheated and you want to put them on a pedestal? F**k those guys.

Umm who are you so we can see when and where you actually played? Shall I list 100 names of players who failed drug tests who didn't hit 70 hr? Before testing began in 2005 you cannot say with 100% who was or wasn't taking peds. What else do you need to understand?

[jhssketchcards]

Originally Posted by rms13

All top sprinters have thighs/hamstrings that are bigger than some bodybuilders. Obviously stronger muscles increase speed. You can ask why do any athletes take PEDs. Why have all top cyclists been using PEDs? Why are swimmers using them? Why are skiers using them? Because they enhance physical performance.

Nah, we all know it’s strictly to help them recover their careers… I mean from injury


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[awz50]

Originally Posted by rats60

No it doesn't. The article bases the numbers off of their first reported use. If you believe that is when they first started taking steroids, you are naive. Steroids were around in the 80s and throughout the 90s. They were doping much earlier.

Ahh was waiting for this

[Seitas]

Originally Posted by discostu

Your theory is far different in basis than others, as in it lacks any factual or structural basis in timeline.

Your stance has been clear on Bonds (and Clemens), but it weakens your point when you force a timeline with zero factual basis.

Fainaru-Wada has basically made a career out of Bonds and his steroid use, surely if he had even a toothpick's amount of evidence to back up PED use prior to the timeline that he and Williams posed, he'd surely use it.

Also, we know that steroids were around MLB before the 80s.

But wait, didn’t you see his airtight evidence that Ben Johnson started using PEDs in 1981? That has to mean that Bonds was using in the 80’s too.

[fabiani12333]

Steroids impact athletes in different ways -- some benefit from them more than others.

I think the biggest benefit is consistency. If you're stronger, have more stamina and recuperate quicker, it allows you to perform at a high level more consistently. It makes you more productive and successful.

But steroids alone don't make good players great. You need to train hard to enhance your abilities. Steroids help hard working players achieve greater heights.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by rms13

All top sprinters have thighs/hamstrings that are bigger than some bodybuilders. Obviously stronger muscles increase speed. You can ask why do any athletes take PEDs. Why have all top cyclists been using PEDs? Why are swimmers using them? Why are skiers using them? Because they enhance physical performance.

Including running speed.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by ken161

This is what I've always thought. Many hardcore steroid users have a certain "look" to them. I recently watched Clemens' 20-strikeout game against Seattle in 1986. He didn't have that 'roid rage look to him back then. But by the time he was throwing Piazza's shattered bat back at him in the 2000 World Series, Clemens looked like an East German shot putter from the 1976 Olympics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNTWUPsPrJ8

So was Clemens roid raging in the 1990 alcs?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Are you a Yankees fan? I can tell you of at least two living Hall of Fame former Yankees who used steroids.

Let's see proof or are you just going to rumormonger.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by 89Giants

Umm who are you so we can see when and where you actually played? Shall I list 100 names of players who failed drug tests who didn't hit 70 hr? Before testing began in 2005 you cannot say with 100% who was or wasn't taking peds. What else do you need to understand?

I would like to see this list with the evidence to back it up.

[CoachBruno]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Are you a Yankees fan? I can tell you of at least two living Hall of Fame former Yankees who used steroids.

Not sure what I said that makes you think I would support Yankee steroid users.

[CoachBruno]

Originally Posted by 89Giants

Umm who are you so we can see when and where you actually played? Shall I list 100 names of players who failed drug tests who didn't hit 70 hr? Before testing began in 2005 you cannot say with 100% who was or wasn't taking peds. What else do you need to understand?

If you think I intend to give you my name, you’re even dumber than your posts make you seem. And the 100 guys who didn’t hit home runs don’t deserve the HOF either. Bonds was just the best of the cheaters.

These guys knew they were risking their legacies when they took and then tried to cover up their roid usage. It was a calculated risk on their parts and they got popped. If you did steroids, you don’t deserve to be in the hall.

[89Giants]

Originally Posted by CoachBruno

If you think I intend to give you my name, you’re even dumber than your posts make you seem. And the 100 guys who didn’t hit home runs don’t deserve the HOF either. Bonds was just the best of the cheaters.



These guys knew they were risking their legacies when they took and then tried to cover up their roid usage. It was a calculated risk on their parts and they got popped. If you did steroids, you don’t deserve to be in the hall.

If you're going to act like you know so much why not give us your name? Otherwise you are just someone writing nonsense because nobody believes you. Who are these players you saw juice that went on to the big leagues? Your name is coach Bruno, the only thing I can gather from that is you might be the guy in the movie "Bruno".

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[rms13]

Originally Posted by ken161

This is what I've always thought. Many hardcore steroid users have a certain "look" to them. I recently watched Clemens' 20-strikeout game against Seattle in 1986. He didn't have that 'roid rage look to him back then. But by the time he was throwing Piazza's shattered bat back at him in the 2000 World Series, Clemens looked like an East German shot putter from the 1976 Olympics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNTWUPsPrJ8

What about the 1990 ALCS when Clemens got ejected and looked like he was going to murder the umpire on the field if people didn’t get in his way? The thing about the mythical roid rage is that it’s usually an amplification of someone’s personality.

[rms13]

Originally Posted by CoachBruno

Yes, it can turn good to great. As a professional baseball player who chose not to juice, but who saw teammates change the trajectory of their careers, I can absolutely confirm that it can have that type of impact.

The argument that “juice can’t help you hit 70 HR” is specious at best. The benefits are absolutely immense. Juice allows you to move the bat faster and thereby wait longer to identify pitches before deciding to swing. And then you hit the ball harder when you make contact. What else do you need to understand??

They cheated and it does not make it ok just because “others cheated too”. They got millions of dollars for cheating. They shouldn’t also be put in the hall. Those of us who stayed clean got cheated and you want to put them on a pedestal? F**k those guys.

So someone that would hit .200 with 200k is all of the sudden going to hit 70hr? I can agree that someone who was a great hitter with 50hr power like Bonds or McGwire could push it to 70 supplementation and training but you can’t pretend it’s going to turn a non HOF caliber guy into an all time great for 20 years. If roids was all it takes than Gabe Kapler would have been hitting 70 hrs. It also discounts the fact that guys like Bonds and Clemens worked harder than 90% of their peers. It’s like saying some guy at your local gym is going to look like Jay Cutler or Ronnie Coleman because they start using roids. You still need genetics and hard work. If it was that easy I could have taken roids and at least made to MLB

[mrmojorisin71]

I love baseball, current and past but DAMN the steroid era was epic! Let me in, guys like David Cone and Kevin Brown deserve to be in too. They were ELITE during this era…we prop up the unfair play, but those dudes dealt against them and were amazing to watch.