MLB Heading To A Lockout

[SupermanBrandon]

When do we think they will actually sit down and start figuring this out again? Feb 1st?

[pewe]

Originally Posted by SupermanBrandon

When do we think they will actually sit down and start figuring this out again? Feb 1st?

The aptly named “Labor Day”???


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[pewe]

The Athletic takes a swing: https://theathletic.com/2994421/2021...a-lockout/?amp


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[Hod1]

I know it’s a different sport but my mom brought up a box of old stuff yesterday that had this in it from the 1995 NBA lockout.




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[KurtisCards]

Originally Posted by Hod1

I know it’s a different sport but my mom brought up a box of old stuff yesterday that had this in it from the 1995 NBA lockout.

Attachment 515412


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wow thats a crazy piece of nostalgia, whats in the envelope?

[Hod1]

Originally Posted by KurtisCards

wow thats a crazy piece of nostalgia, whats in the envelope?

It’s a letter to Jason Kidd and his Topps Stadium Club RC. The one where he’s holding a blue Dallas Mavericks coat in front of him.


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[PLAYED4NOTHING]

Originally Posted by Hod1

It’s a letter to Jason Kidd and his Topps Stadium Club RC. The one where he’s holding a blue Dallas Mavericks coat in front of him.


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An awesome little sentimental piece to keep around forever.

[PumpnDumpling]

Originally Posted by hod1

it’s a letter to jason kidd and his topps stadium club rc. The one where he’s holding a blue dallas mavericks coat in front of him.


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it belongs in a museum!

[rwperu34]

I think Max Scherzer let the player's main demands out of the bag; 1) Tanking, 2) Service time manipulation.

Both of those should be pretty easy fixes. Fixing the tanking issue is good for the everyone (players, owners, and most importantly, fans), so no need for the players to give up too much. Service time will be trickier, but maybe take the playoffs to six teams (two WC) and make the LDS a seven game series gets the players whatever they come up with.

[rwperu34]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

If you're making the effort to go to a game and are spending it socializing at a bar, you're probably not a dedicated fan of one of the teams.

MLB has a big problem with pace of play and lack of action. Games should be closer to 2.5 hours -- not 3.5 hours.

You are 100% wrong about this. Auctionjmm hit the nail on the head here;

Originally Posted by auctionjmm

I disagree with the first part about dedicated fans. The common theme in nearly every new arena/stadium construction or rennovation is more social space. Bars, restaurants, and clubs that overlook the field or court are in-demand. The Indians last renovvation was almost entirely dedicated to social space and the new Cavs rennovation (which they needed for the All-Star game this year) now has 5 clubs and a giant upper deck bar. Stadiums/arenas are removing seats or building new venues with less seats to focus on social areas, allowing fans to watch the game from a different perspective instead of being cramped up in a traditional seat. What difference does it make if you are talking in your seat while watching the game, or talking at the bar while watching the game? You are still looking at the same field.

I'll add my own experience from working Spring Training games for 20 years. I am constantly baffled at the number of people that follow their team to the Phoenix area spending a ton of money on travel, hotel, rental car, tickets, paying $9 for a beer...you know, the most dedicated of fans...then stand at the top of a hill with their back to the field for 2/3 of the game!!!

[regularp]

Originally Posted by rwperu34

I think Max Scherzer let the player's main demands out of the bag; 1) Tanking, 2) Service time manipulation.

Both of those should be pretty easy fixes. Fixing the tanking issue is good for the everyone (players, owners, and most importantly, fans), so no need for the players to give up too much. Service time will be trickier, but maybe take the playoffs to six teams (two WC) and make the LDS a seven game series gets the players whatever they come up with.

MLBPA proposed a 12 team playoff with two divisions per league, one with eight teams, the other seven.

Service time manipulation is terrible for the game. I hope the players dig in on that.

NBA and NFL are completely different than MLB since there's no minor league for the NFL (besides college) and the G-League is not the regular path for players to the NBA.

NHL has a similar system to MLB and their service time is MILES better than MLB's. Would love to see that for baseball but I'm sure these greedy ass owners will do everything they can to avoid it.

[SearchPatrol]

For the "tanking" problem. Do the players have an issue with the Pirates but not the Rays? Did Washington tank this pass year? Should they have kept Max and not have traded him?

I think what Max Scherzer meant to say was -- the biggest issues are:

1) He wants the players to make more money.

2) He wants the players to make more money.

and then below this is 1) Tanking and 2) Service time manipulation.

[fulltritty]

Here's a good breakdown of some of the issues from ESPN.

Free agency: The union proposed allowing players reach free agency at 29½ years old at five years of service time. The league remained steadfast: Six years of service as a non-starter.

Competitive-balance tax: The CBT, or luxury tax, threshold is currently at $210 million and serves as a de facto salary cap. The league offered to raise it to $214 million and scale it to $220 million by the end of a new agreement, though it would include more onerous penalties for exceeding it. The union dropped its CBT ask to $245 million in its most recent proposal.

Arbitration: The system that allows players with three to six years of service to negotiate their salaries for the first time is a significant point of contention. The union continues to ask for arbitration to begin after a player's second season. The league proposed a system that would replace arbitration entirely and pay players based on a formula.

Competitive integrity: The league offered a draft lottery for the first three picks. The specifics of the union's proposed changes to the draft are unclear, though Meyer said the players' proposal "offered to build in advantages for small-market teams" in the draft.

Pay players earlier: The union asked for a significant hike in the league minimum salary, which is currently $570,500. The league offered a bump higher than past seasons but not close to what the players sought. Further, both sides are open to the idea of a bonus pool that could enrich players with zero to three years service time who reach certain incentives, whether it's All-Star appearances or MVP and Cy Young votes.

Expanded playoffs: MLB proposed a 14-team plan. The union countered with a 12-team plan that would include realigning each league into one eight-team division and another seven-team division.

Revenue sharing: The union proposed the $100 million reduction -- almost certain to be a non-starter among the smaller-market teams enriched by the redistribution -- so larger-market teams would have more to spend in free agency. Though revenue sharing has played a vital role in previous agreements, the league identifying it as a red-line item could sideline it from future talks.

Service-time manipulation: One of the trickiest issues, the union wants players to be able to earn extra service days -- which go toward time accrued toward free agency -- via accomplishments. The league has consistently rejected the idea.

Salary cap: MLB recognizes this is the union's red line and has not proposed it. In an early proposal to the union, the league did offer a $100 million salary floor -- with a $180 million CBT threshold. The union rejected it, operating on the idea that a hard cap naturally follows a hard floor.

[inaka]

Originally Posted by Oriole Way

A salary floor will put more money in player's pockets, which is a good thing. But a salary floor will absolutely NOT make baseball more competitive.

A cap and a floor at least creates a dynamic when any team could win it all or at least make the playoffs. In baseball, over half of the teams are out of it by opening day and there's no point in even watching them. It's pointless.

If you think a salary floor won't make baseball more competitive, then what will? If there's no answer, then it's doomed. I mean, a host of other issues plague baseball (game times, batters no longer hitting for high average, lack of balls put in play, boring, long segments with no action, stealing is largely absent due to analytics, etc.) but a lack of competitive and knowing your team has no chance before the season even starts has to be the biggest problem.

Frankly, I'm not sure why Orioles or Pirates fans (or many others) even care. No chance of winning the World Series. None. (+25000 Vegas odds) LOL.

A total team payroll of $23M playing games against a division rival with a $211M payroll and a single player that makes more than your entire teams is like watching Kramer do karate against 8 year olds on Seinfeld. It's a joke.

[Stech36]

Originally Posted by inaka

A cap and a floor at least creates a dynamic when any team could win it all or at least make the playoffs. In baseball, over half of the teams are out of it by opening day and there's no point in even watching them. It's pointless.

If you think a salary floor won't make baseball more competitive, then what will? If there's no answer, then it's doomed. I mean, a host of other issues plague baseball (game times, batters no longer hitting for high average, lack of balls put in play, boring, long segments with no action, stealing is largely absent due to analytics, etc.) but a lack of competitive and knowing your team has no chance before the season even starts has to be the biggest problem.

Frankly, I'm not sure why Orioles or Pirates fans (or many others) even care. No chance of winning the World Series. None. (+25000 Vegas odds) LOL.

A total team payroll of $23M playing games against a division rival with a $211M payroll and a single player that makes more than your entire teams is like watching Kramer do karate against 8 year olds on Seinfeld. It's a joke.

Over half the teams??? That would mean only 14 are trying to make the playoffs.

I count 22 teams that were trying to make the playoffs last year. And 2 more that are probably competitive this upcoming year.

[brewtown107]

Originally Posted by Eckstein197

Difference is when you’re franchise tagged, your money goes through the roof. In arbitration, even if you’re incredible your pay doesn’t go through the roof like it does with the nfl franchise tag

This is incorrect.

The following is from an article that is almost 2 years old:

Record arbitration salaries

Mookie Betts $27M (2020)
Nolan Arenado $26M (2019)
Josh Donaldson $23M (2018)
Bryce Harper $21.625M (2018)
Mookie Betts $20M (2019)
David Price $19.75M (2015)
Anthony Rendon $18.8M (2019)
Jacob deGrom $17M (2019)
Khris Davis $16.5M (2019)
Manny Machado $16M (2018)
José Abreu $16M (2019)

These numbers may not match what these guys could have gotten in the open market (nor does Franchise tag money in football) but no one can reasonably argue they're not extremely well paid. Mookie Betts made $47M in his last two years of arbitration. That is "through the roof" money for sure.

[gmarutiak]

Originally Posted by inaka

A cap and a floor at least creates a dynamic when any team could win it all or at least make the playoffs. In baseball, over half of the teams are out of it by opening day and there's no point in even watching them. It's pointless.

If you think a salary floor won't make baseball more competitive, then what will? If there's no answer, then it's doomed. I mean, a host of other issues plague baseball (game times, batters no longer hitting for high average, lack of balls put in play, boring, long segments with no action, stealing is largely absent due to analytics, etc.) but a lack of competitive and knowing your team has no chance before the season even starts has to be the biggest problem.

Frankly, I'm not sure why Orioles or Pirates fans (or many others) even care. No chance of winning the World Series. None. (+25000 Vegas odds) LOL.

A total team payroll of $23M playing games against a division rival with a $211M payroll and a single player that makes more than your entire teams is like watching Kramer do karate against 8 year olds on Seinfeld. It's a joke.

As a Pirates fan, I stopped caring years ago. My thought is, if the owner doesn't want to spend his money on the team, why the heck should I spend mine?

[ScooterD]

Let’s say that the parties agree on rules/policies to do away with taking and service time manipulation. That’s very difficult, but let’s say it happens.

Ok - who polices these things, how, and what standard of proof is needed for a violation to be punishable? Seems that you would have to prove intent to come to a disposition on either issue.

It would be good for the game to get rid of these things, but I don’t see a process that would work? Cases before the NLRB in other business settings take YEARS… that process can’t work here. It’s a tough situation

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by auctionjmm

Does this look separate from the game? The Corner is a two story bar with standing room behind the foul pole. This is the first area to sellout for home games. You get the social experience + game. Win win. And that's where the young people are for those who wonder if young people care.

That looks like a playoff game -- naturally eyes would be fixed on the high-stakes action. Other photos in google image search show a lot fewer fans and people looking in different directions.

But I get your point -- the arrangement allows fans a line of sight to the action while enjoying alcohol and conversation.

[dashcol]

Originally Posted by inaka

A cap and a floor at least creates a dynamic when any team could win it all or at least make the playoffs. In baseball, over half of the teams are out of it by opening day and there's no point in even watching them. It's pointless.

If you think a salary floor won't make baseball more competitive, then what will? If there's no answer, then it's doomed. I mean, a host of other issues plague baseball (game times, batters no longer hitting for high average, lack of balls put in play, boring, long segments with no action, stealing is largely absent due to analytics, etc.) but a lack of competitive and knowing your team has no chance before the season even starts has to be the biggest problem.

Frankly, I'm not sure why Orioles or Pirates fans (or many others) even care. No chance of winning the World Series. None. (+25000 Vegas odds) LOL.

A total team payroll of $23M playing games against a division rival with a $211M payroll and a single player that makes more than your entire teams is like watching Kramer do karate against 8 year olds on Seinfeld. It's a joke.

What do you mean it’s pointless to watch??!!?? Are you not a baseball fan, but instead a bandwagon who only watches and likes the contenders every year? Why not just watch for the love of the game?

If we only watched the contenders every year and no one else mattered, this year I would have missed:

- Buxton’s first part of the year amazing season, 4.5 WAR and 19 HR in 61 games. The Twins weren’t contenders though, so no one would have seen it.
- Ryan Mountcastle. Orioles aren’t contenders, so no one would have realized how good he is and the potential in him.
- It seems like there was something historic that happened this year on a non contender….it seems to be slipping my mind, but I remember reading something about something happening this year for the first time in over 100 years…I am sure it will come to me…. Wouldn’t have seen any of that without watching non contenders.

That take is just an insane take that really only gamblers take. Guys who know the lines and only watch the games for those who might be in the playoffs five months later.

Yes, it is frustrating to watch your team struggle every year. Yes it hurts to not be annual contenders. That does not mean I will not watch my team, I have been a fan for 40 years, and will not stop now. The movie Major League illustrates it well, Randy Quaid and his two friends sticking it out game after game for loyalty and love of the game. Then team starts winning and sell outs come out in groves. There is good baseball to be seen in non contending baseball. There are no hitters being thrown by none contenders. There are records being set by non contenders.

Sorry for the long tirade, back to discussing the lockout that won’t be a big deal.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by rwperu34

I'll add my own experience from working Spring Training games for 20 years. I am constantly baffled at the number of people that follow their team to the Phoenix area spending a ton of money on travel, hotel, rental car, tickets, paying $9 for a beer...you know, the most dedicated of fans...then stand at the top of a hill with their back to the field for 2/3 of the game!!!

That's because spring training games are a vacation experience for many fans. The games are for the players to get ready for the season.

My experience is the most avid fans of the game are the ones who focus the most on the action -- it's a passion or obsession for them.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by rwperu34

I think Max Scherzer let the player's main demands out of the bag; 1) Tanking, 2) Service time manipulation.

Both of those should be pretty easy fixes. Fixing the tanking issue is good for the everyone (players, owners, and most importantly, fans), so no need for the players to give up too much. Service time will be trickier, but maybe take the playoffs to six teams (two WC) and make the LDS a seven game series gets the players whatever they come up with.

I dont think tanking is a problem for owners and front offices -- they want the option to completely tear down and rebuild their teams -- it's part of the cycle.

The problem for both owners and players is that some teams like the Pirates and Orioles don't spend on their teams.

Then there's teams like the A's and Rays who have gamed the system by not spending and still winning -- they hyper focus on exploiting market inefficiencies.

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by dashcol

What do you mean it’s pointless to watch??!!?? Are you not a baseball fan, but instead a bandwagon who only watches and likes the contenders every year? Why not just watch for the love of the game?

Here's the thing, though....if you just want to watch for the "love of the game", you don't need to necessarily watch major league baseball.

Over the past decade, I've been to far more non-MLB games (minors, college, or local high school) than I have MLB games.

[base set]

I think all parties are operating in the dark right now with what attendance really is / will be, and the future of television revenue as well.

I have been wondering how many teams get revenue from real estate development around their stadium, which could seem to create some unequal revenue streams.

[Stech36]

Originally Posted by base set

I think all parties are operating in the dark right now with what attendance really is / will be, and the future of television revenue as well.

I have been wondering how many teams get revenue from real estate development around their stadium, which could seem to create some unequal revenue streams.

Exactly what percentage of revenue are players entitled to from income outside of the Stadium.

My opinion is zero