PED’s enhance, They don’t create

[free2131]

Interesting mix of the politics of the medical/health industry and crony capitalism. There is absolutely a reason that opioids were pushed and things like weed were made illegally or discouraged, and it had nothing to do with therapeutic reasons. Anabolic steroids are linked to an increase in deaths and hospitalizations, but it can't hold a candle to opioid related deaths.

We are talking about two different issues here, though. Players can use one therapeutic option over another because, simply, those are the rules of the game. It's like asking why players can't have 4 strikes instead of 3. Because those are the rules. You can argue and debate the merits of 4 strikes over 3, or an automated strike zone, or the infield fly rule, but the one and only reason of why one thing is allowed over another is literally "because people decided that the one thing would be allowed and the other would not". Doesn't make it logical or provide a "good" reason why, but it is THE reason why.

Barry Bonds was an elite baseball player. I think that most people agree that he started using PEDs around/after the 1998 season. His career up to 1998 was absolutely on a HOF track (.290/.411/.556, 411 HR, 403 2B, 1917 H, 445 SB, 164 OPS+/159 wRC+, 99.9 bWAR/99.2 fWAR). There is no doubt among people who don't have an agenda that Bonds was a HOFer.

To answer your question you posed earlier, I would allow my child to take a non-addiction forming shot or pill that would allow them to continue playing in the moment if under the opinions of a medical professional that no lasting or permanent damage would occur as long as it was allowed under the rules of the activity. Obviously I wouldn't allow an addictive substance to be given to my child under any circumstances.

If what they wanted to give them was legal and not dangerous but against the rules of the event he/she is participating in, I would hope that I would have engrained the morals into my child that he/she wouldn't accept anything not allowed. If I had to make the choices, I wouldn't allow him/her to break the rules of the event. But, as alluded to earlier, that is an entire different argument than one of which substance should/shouldn't be allowed.

[awz50]

Glad we are doing this again

[premium1981]

Positive for nandrolone.

I think we've come to the point where if he thought he'd done something wrong he would have admitted it. His apology did not provide that. You can tell he wanted to skewer the testing system but he probably couldn't for whatever reason.

[REGGIE206]

Warning track fly balls turn into home runs.. how can that possibly change the game or affect records?

[Noles939913]

Originally Posted by free2131

Interesting mix of the politics of the medical/health industry and crony capitalism. There is absolutely a reason that opioids were pushed and things like weed were made illegally or discouraged, and it had nothing to do with therapeutic reasons. Anabolic steroids are linked to an increase in deaths and hospitalizations, but it can't hold a candle to opioid related deaths.

We are talking about two different issues here, though. Players can use one therapeutic option over another because, simply, those are the rules of the game. It's like asking why players can't have 4 strikes instead of 3. Because those are the rules. You can argue and debate the merits of 4 strikes over 3, or an automated strike zone, or the infield fly rule, but the one and only reason of why one thing is allowed over another is literally "because people decided that the one thing would be allowed and the other would not". Doesn't make it logical or provide a "good" reason why, but it is THE reason why.

Barry Bonds was an elite baseball player. I think that most people agree that he started using PEDs around/after the 1998 season. His career up to 1998 was absolutely on a HOF track (.290/.411/.556, 411 HR, 403 2B, 1917 H, 445 SB, 164 OPS+/159 wRC+, 99.9 bWAR/99.2 fWAR). There is no doubt among people who don't have an agenda that Bonds was a HOFer.

To answer your question you posed earlier, I would allow my child to take a non-addiction forming shot or pill that would allow them to continue playing in the moment if under the opinions of a medical professional that no lasting or permanent damage would occur as long as it was allowed under the rules of the activity. Obviously I wouldn't allow an addictive substance to be given to my child under any circumstances.

If what they wanted to give them was legal and not dangerous but against the rules of the event he/she is participating in, I would hope that I would have engrained the morals into my child that he/she wouldn't accept anything not allowed. If I had to make the choices, I wouldn't allow him/her to break the rules of the event. But, as alluded to earlier, that is an entire different argument than one of which substance should/shouldn't be allowed.

Bonds loved him some speed as well. He was probably on that before 1998 if he wasn’t roiding as well.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Can a mod delete this thread - it’s title is blatant and misleading misinformation. PEDs allow players to recover and play when they ordinarily wouldn’t have been able to which allows them to create records, runs, etc.

[SunDevil2422]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

Can a mod delete this thread - it’s title is blatant and misleading misinformation. PEDs allow players to recover and play when they ordinarily wouldn’t have been able to which allows them to create records, runs, etc.

People overuse misinformation nowadays.


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[no10pin]

Well, this is the Stiflest thing I've seen today. The only thing that amazes me in this thread is that he's actually quoted everyone correctly and hasn't caused two pages of comments to look stupid.

[tonedef2oo8]

And another brilliant face plant of a topic.

[tonedef2oo8]

Originally Posted by Stifle

My point was already proven with the first reply.

Alcohol was banned until it was realized what a cash cow it was. Then we now have alcohol on nearly every corner.

It was a backhanded serve but it made my point.

You had a point?

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

Can a mod delete this thread - it’s title is blatant and misleading misinformation. PEDs allow players to recover and play when they ordinarily wouldn’t have been able to which allows them to create records, runs, etc.

I think what the OP meant was that PEDs don't create abilities -- they can enhance them. I dont see how that's misinformation. For example, Barry Bonds was a great hitter before he reportedly started taking anabolic steroids, and he was even better after.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by Noles939913

Bonds loved him some speed as well. He was probably on that before 1998 if he wasn’t roiding as well.

Do you have a source for that claim? I don't recall ever reading that anywhere and I've read a lot about Bonds' reported PED use. I'm not saying it isnt true -- speed was popular in MLB during the 80s.

[fabiani12333]

I've said this before and I'll say it again: MLB players are entertainers and paid to entertain -- to perform.

MLB players have a long history of taking substances to stay healthy, productive and able to perform. They also have a long history of doing things to gain an edge while competing. This isn't exclusive to the steroid era -- far from it.

[jhssketchcards]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

I've said this before and I'll say it again: MLB players are entertainers and paid to entertain -- to perform.

MLB players have a long history of taking substances to stay healthy, productive and able to perform. They also have a long history of doing things to gain an edge while competing. This isn't exclusive to the steroid era -- far from it.

That’s a good point. I see though you’ve weighed in on the Astros. Some argue they were just doing as you say… doing things to gain an edge. How do you compare Bonds (allegedly) using steroids/PEDs or McGwire (admittedly) using - IE cheating, to what Boston, Houston etc due to cheat? Why do so many give a pass to the steroid users saying “everyone did it” yet it’s also known that all teams steal signs? I’m sincerely asking BTW. I’d like to understand how a group of fans can literally despise or even hate one group of players yet give a pass to another.


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[cardsin47]

Originally Posted by jhssketchcards

Why do so many give a pass to the steroid users saying “everyone did it” yet it’s also known that all teams steal signs? I’m sincerely asking BTW. I’d like to understand how a group of fans can literally despise or even hate one group of players yet give a pass to another.


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MONEY —- I’d betcha’ dollars to donuts that the sentiment and answers to your question would be completely different between Collectors ( skin in the Game ), and non-card owning Fans ( no skin in the Game )

[jhssketchcards]

Originally Posted by cardsin47

MONEY —- I’d betcha’ dollars to donuts that the sentiment and answers to your question would be completely different between Collectors ( skin in the Game ), and non-card owning Fans ( no skin in the Game )

Yep. I once had a game used autographed McGwire OMLB. I was a fan no doubt. When he refused to testify to Congress I was disappointed. When he finally admitted he cheated I trashed it. I could have sold it but don’t want to profit from cheaters.


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[TimBuckTwo]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

I think what the OP meant was that PEDs don't create abilities -- they can enhance them. I dont see how that's misinformation. For example, Barry Bonds was a great hitter before he reportedly started taking anabolic steroids, and he was even better after.

Yes. He was upset that McGwire and Sosa were roiding up and getting all the attention and he said, "Hey, I want some of that."

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by jhssketchcards

That’s a good point. I see though you’ve weighed in on the Astros. Some argue they were just doing as you say… doing things to gain an edge. How do you compare Bonds (allegedly) using steroids/PEDs or McGwire (admittedly) using - IE cheating, to what Boston, Houston etc due to cheat? Why do so many give a pass to the steroid users saying “everyone did it” yet it’s also known that all teams steal signs? I’m sincerely asking BTW. I’d like to understand how a group of fans can literally despise or even hate one group of players yet give a pass to another.


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There was no MLB testing or punishment regime for PEDs during the steroid era. The player's union resisted it and the owners benefitted from the increased popularity the sport received from the home runs being hit. It was good business for everyone.

During the time the Astros were cheating, using technology to steal and relay signs was already against league rules and punishable. The commissioner had previously warned teams there would be severe punishment for electronic sign stealing after the Red Sox-Apple Watch scandal.

The use of technology by teams to steal and relay signs did not benefit MLB as a whole -- only the teams who successfully practiced it. PEDs, on the other hand, have helped to make the sport successful. They've kept players performing at a high level.

A lot of players didnt use steroids, which potentially hurt their relative performance. But a lot of those same players used amphetamines, which is a potent and effective PED -- delays fatigue; boosts energy; heightens awareness; increases reaction time.

[jhssketchcards]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

There was no MLB testing or punishment regime for PEDs during the steroid era. The player's union resisted it and the owners benefitted from the increased popularity the sport received from the home runs being hit. It was good business for everyone.

During the time the Astros were cheating, using technology to steal and relay signs was already against league rules and punishable. The commissioner had previously warned teams there would be severe punishment for electronic sign stealing after the Red Sox-Apple Watch scandal.

The use of technology by teams to steal and relay signs did not benefit MLB as a whole -- only the teams who successfully practiced it. PEDs, on the other hand, have helped to make the sport successful. They've kept players performing at a high level.

A lot of players didnt use steroids, which potentially hurt their relative performance. But a lot of those same players used amphetamines, which is a potent and effective PED -- delays fatigue; boosts energy; heightens awareness; increases reaction time.

I’m talking cheating, not MLB slowing both. I’m talking fans/collectors viewing PED steroid guys as collectible and having value versus the vitriol especially towards Houston. Boston cheated too and used signal stealing during their WS season. PED/steroid guys knew what they were doing was illegal, it was banned in 1991. Just like the cheating, MLB didn’t have any real punishment in place (or testing) because they knew which stars were doing it. MLB is corrupt and filled with liars.


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[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

I think what the OP meant was that PEDs don't create abilities -- they can enhance them. I dont see how that's misinformation. For example, Barry Bonds was a great hitter before he reportedly started taking anabolic steroids, and he was even better after.

So although the OP wrote this: “I love apples”

You believe he meant this: “I love oranges”

and you don’t think what he wrote was misinformation.

It’s not exactly a mystery as to why the pro-PED crowd thinks the way the OP does.

[WalterAZ31]

cesspool

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by jhssketchcards

I’m talking cheating, not MLB slowing both. I’m talking fans/collectors viewing PED steroid guys as collectible and having value versus the vitriol especially towards Houston. Boston cheated too and used signal stealing during their WS season. PED/steroid guys knew what they were doing was illegal, it was banned in 1991. Just like the cheating, MLB didn’t have any real punishment in place (or testing) because they knew which stars were doing it. MLB is corrupt and filled with liars.


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I think in the case of the current Astros who cheated, similar to the alleged steroid users like Bonds, Clemens and McGwire, their talent is undeniable.

Seeing how well the current Astros have performed this year makes one wonder why they ever felt compelled to continually cheat in the first place. The core of the current Astros lineup is the same as it was in 2017 and 2018 -- Altuve; Bregman; Correa; Gurriel.

As a collector of MLB licensed cards and a fan of MLB in general, I tend to focus on the talent and ability of players. The Astros have a lot of talent and ability and that's what grabs my attention.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

So although the OP wrote this: “I love apples”

You believe he meant this: “I love oranges”

and you don’t think what he wrote was misinformation.

It’s not exactly a mystery as to why the pro-PED crowd thinks the way the OP does.

You complained about the title of the thread -- that's what I addressed. The title says, "PED’s enhance, They don’t create". I don't see how that's misinformation -- at least historically in MLB. I'm sure there will eventually be drugs that create abilities and skills in athletes.

[Noles939913]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

Do you have a source for that claim? I don't recall ever reading that anywhere and I've read a lot about Bonds' reported PED use. I'm not saying it isnt true -- speed was popular in MLB during the 80s.

He tested positive for amphetamines and then blamed it on a pill bottle he stole from Mark Sweeney’s locker. So if you believe his story he’s still a POS thief/moron who pops pills he has no clue what they could be. If you don’t believe his story he’s a pill popper who loves to throw his teammates under the bus to try to make himself look better:

https://www.espn.com/mlb/news/story?id=2727325

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by Noles939913

He tested positive for amphetamines and then blamed it on a pill bottle he stole from Mark Sweeney’s locker. So if you believe his story he’s still a POS thief/moron who pops pills he has no clue what they could be. If you don’t believe his story he’s a pill popper who loves to throw his teammates under the bus to try to make himself look better:

https://www.espn.com/mlb/news/story?id=2727325

That was 2006 -- you said he was probably using amphetamines before 1998. I'd totally believe that, as amphetamines were popular with MLB players during that era -- I just haven't read any claims that Bonds used it prior to using steroids.

And my guess for why Bonds may have intentionally tried to use amphetamines near the end of his career: he was over 40 and was under intense scrutiny for allegedly using steroids; he probably felt like he needed a pick-me-up. An MLB season is very long, after all -- that's why players used amphetamines.