Question for those who still view the Astros as Public Enemy #1

[pewe]

Originally Posted by Mandy1320

I want nothing to do with the individual players themselves. If everyone that participated were banned from baseball, that’d be okay in my book.

The Astros as an organization is irrelevant.

So you’d be cool with players like Altuve and Reddick who objected and actively avoided participation?


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[speedyjg13]

Forever.

Only player I will root for on that team is Zack Greinke

[hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by pewe

What makes you focus specifically on Altuve and Bregman?

Altuve didn’t even use the system, and the system made Bregman worse.

Wouldn’t it make more sense to focus your wrath on the players it benefitted (not sure who benefitted, actually… definitely made Springier, Correa, and Bregman’s performance worse to much much worse depending on player) or the coaches that enabled it (Cora) or staff that did the actual cheating?


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No they all took part. They all should burn. Altuve's "dont rip my shirt I'm shy" puts him at the top.

Bregman is just a weasley-faced weasel.

Correa uh...if you're gonna let him go we'll take him!!

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[JRX]

Originally Posted by pewe

So you’d be cool with players like Altuve and Reddick who objected and actively avoided participation?


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Oh please, "there was nothing they could do to stop it". Give me a break. They were all in on it, they all knew it was going on, and they were all on board with it.

[pewe]

Originally Posted by hxcmilkshake

No they all took part. They all should burn. Altuve's "dont rip my shirt I'm shy" puts him at the top.

Bregman is just a weasley-faced weasel.

Correa uh...if you're gonna let him go we'll take him!!

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Haha! Correa - will he ever be healthy enough to contribute, though???


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[hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by pewe

Haha! Correa - will he ever be healthy enough to contribute, though???


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Pffft I'd just be worried guys like Gallo and Voit will rub off on him!!!!

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[pewe]

Originally Posted by JRX

Oh please, "there was nothing they could do to stop it". Give me a break. They were all in on it, they all knew it was going on, and they were all on board with it.

What does “in on it” mean to you? They were all in the video room decoding in between at-bats?

They certainly knew it was going on, not much debate there.

How would you advise Altuve, or someone else objecting like him, to prevent his teammates from using a system in the future?

BTW you may enjoy this podcast on why it’s hard to imagine how we all may act when placed in a situation like many Astros players found themselves in that year. And why in hindsight we all assume we’d individually act differently.

I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did: https://www.npr.org/2019/11/27/78349...s-transform-us


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[jduds]

Originally Posted by pewe

What does “in on it” mean to you? They were all in the video room decoding in between at-bats?

They certainly knew it was going on, not much debate there.

How would you advise Altuve, or someone else objecting like him, to prevent his teammates from using a system in the future?


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Why is anyone buying Altuve didn't know or participate?

[pewe]

Originally Posted by jduds

Why is anyone buying Altuve didn't know or participate?

We certainly know he and his teammates reported unanimously that he knew and vocally objected.

And we also have direct audio evidence that they (mostly) didn’t use the bangs when he was at bat.


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[SkipAway]

Originally Posted by pewe

What makes you focus specifically on Altuve and Bregman?

Altuve didn’t even use the system, and the system made Bregman worse.

Two best players on the team that did it - it makes sense to me.

Also, how did Altuve not 'use the system' by hitting on a team of guys who knew what pitch was going to be thrown? There's no doubt he was benefitting from 'the system' regardless of how he wanted to use it.

'The system' making Bregman worse is also funny too. Knowing the pitches being thrown to you in an at-bat can not be construed as 'hurting the batter.' That's a hard no from me.

They all benefited. Whether it was in base hits, or homers, or just playing on a team that generally had an unfair advantage on a lot of days... is benefitting. You were playing with more cards than everyone else. No one 'got worse' by having more information than everyone else. They were not doing us a favor by making Bregman worse by signaling pitches, I can promise you that.

They cheated in front of our faces and thought they would never be caught. A.J. Hinch then laughed in front of our faces about it, acting like it was a ridiculous question, thinking they would never be caught.

What is done in the dark will eventually come to light, and it came particularly true in this case, and they are laying in their bed (i.e., they've been labeled cheaters).

[Cubs_rock21]

They have proven they can hit without help. Im over the whole scandel. But those guys better not sniff the hall before Bonds, Rose, Mcgwire, etc.

[Cubs_rock21]

Originally Posted by jduds

Why is anyone buying Altuve didn't know or participate?

They are nieve as hell lol.

[actionbryan]

It's fun to have a villain and watch people on tv boo them.

I'm going to be disappointed if the Giants knock out of the Dodgers and having spent all my life in Chicagoland, I've never had any reason to root for the Dodgers

[pewe]

Originally Posted by SkipAway

Two best players on the team that did it - it makes sense to me.

Also, how did Altuve not 'use the system' by hitting on a team of guys who knew what pitch was going to be thrown? There's no doubt he was benefitting from 'the system' regardless of how he wanted to use it.

'The system' making Bregman worse is also funny too. Knowing the pitches being thrown to you in an at-bat can not be construed as 'hurting the batter.' That's a hard no from me.

They all benefited. Whether it was in base hits, or homers, or just playing on a team that generally had an unfair advantage on a lot of days... is benefitting. You were playing with more cards than everyone else. No one 'got worse' by having more information than everyone else. They were not doing us a favor by making Bregman worse by signaling pitches, I can promise you that.

They cheated in front of our faces and thought they would never be caught. A.J. Hinch then laughed in front of our faces about it, acting like it was a ridiculous question, thinking they would never be caught.

What is done in the dark will eventually come to light, and it came particularly true in this case, and they are laying in their bed (i.e., they've been labeled cheaters).

“How did Altuve not use the system” = he declined being alerted to when off-speed pitches were coming. And the video staff complied, providing Altuve nearly no alerting “bangs”.

And the facts are the facts. In at-bats when the system was in use, Bregman, Correa, and Springer had remarkably worse wRC+. I’ve run the numbers, and it has also been validated by most of the respected baseball Sabermetric / analytic writers.

The obvious question I could imagine you asking: why did it make them worse? The irony is it’s like stealing bases. Being thrown out any more than 20% of the time eliminates the value of the 80% success rate. And in the case of the Astros sign stealing, the sign stealing was wrong ~10% of the time, and in those pitches they were so bad it overwhelmed the value they got on the ~90% correct.

Pretty ironic they went through all that effort to actually reduce their team performance, and on top of that get whipped in the court of public opinion.

Ouch!


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[Timsterino]

Originally Posted by ensbergcollecto

Astros fan here (just being transparent). Not looking to rehash any of the stuff from 2017 (plenty of threads for that) but just curious about something. I see people pretty aggressively rooting against them because of 2017. If you are one of those people, honest question. How long will you feel that way?

Are you pretty locked in to your Astros hate for the rest of your life?
Will you root against them until all 2017 members are gone from the team?
Other?

The cheaters haven’t been held accountable. Until the day they are, they are dead to me. I root against them no matter what team they land up on - I.E. Springer on the Blue Jays.

[pewe]

Originally Posted by Cubs_rock21

They are nieve as hell lol.

What evidence do you have to refute what are the accepted facts?


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[lauriontj]

Originally Posted by ensbergcollecto

Astros fan here (just being transparent). Not looking to rehash any of the stuff from 2017 (plenty of threads for that) but just curious about something. I see people pretty aggressively rooting against them because of 2017. If you are one of those people, honest question. How long will you feel that way?

Are you pretty locked in to your Astros hate for the rest of your life?
Will you root against them until all 2017 members are gone from the team?
Other?

Until they give up their World Series Title.

[Timsterino]

Originally Posted by jhssketchcards

This message sponsored by

Official Sign Stealing Device of the NY Yankees


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I hate the Yankees too. But it’s amusing how Astros fans deflect the conversation every single time with this.

[Timsterino]

Originally Posted by HTown281

All these people who mention certain players as having hate towards them is pretty funny …. Every single one of you will be rooting for your team to sign Carlos this offseason…. Pure comedy - Morton, Cole, Springer and others have signed else where and all the cheating talks are silenced if he is competing for “ your” team

I didn’t want Springer for the Mets (thank god we didn’t get him) and I don’t want Correa. You can keep every single one of those cheaters. I also don’t want Beltran to manage the Mets either.

So yeah no.

[Cubs_rock21]

Originally Posted by pewe

What evidence do you have to refute what are the accepted facts?


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You have evidence he didn't cheat? When i read articles where he says 'what he and his teammates did was wrong", that sounds guilty. If he didn't want the signals, he still knew about it. He's not innocent. He's a great hitter and still smashes now, I think if they win this year its all legit, but no one can say anyone on that team was a saint lol.

[pewe]

Originally Posted by SkipAway

Two best players on the team that did it - it makes sense to me.

FWIW the players in descending performance on the Astros in ‘17 where:

1 - Altuve 160 OPS+ <— didn’t use “bangs”
2 - Correa 155 OPS+
3 - Gonzalez 146 OPS+
4 - Springer 141 OPS+
5 - Reddick 130 OPS+ <— didn’t use “bangs”
6 - Bregman 125 OPS+
7 - Gurriel 121 OPS+

So… not sure what made Bregman one of the two “best”…


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[SkipAway]

Originally Posted by pewe

“How did Altuve not use the system” = he declined being alerted to when off-speed pitches were coming. And the video staff complied, providing Altuve nearly no alerting “bangs”.

And the facts are the facts. In at-bats when the system was in use, Bregman, Correa, and Springer had remarkably worse wRC+. I’ve run the numbers, and it has also been validated by most of the respected baseball Sabermetric / analytic writers.

The obvious question I could imagine you asking: why did it make them worse? The irony is it’s like stealing bases. Being thrown out any more than 20% of the time eliminates the value of the 80% success rate. And in the case of the Astros sign stealing, the sign stealing was wrong ~10% of the time, and in those pitches they were so bad it overwhelmed the value they got on the ~90% correct.

Pretty ironic they went through all that effort to actually reduce their team performance, and on top of that get whipped in the court of public opinion.

Ouch!


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Hold on, I need to google what 'gaslighting' means.

Gaslight:
verb to manipulate (someone) by psychological means into questioning their own sanity.

Ok, so this is gaslighting.

'The system hurt them. It was actually detrimental to their performance, and it's ironic that we all care - since it made them worse.'

I can't honestly argue that if you're serious. That's a long ways away from anything logical, so I don't think we'd get far. If it helped them win one extra game, it's cheating. If you're saying it actually hurt them, and by stealing and signalling signs they actually lost more games they would have otherwise won... I simply raise my glass and say "Cheers" my friend.

[pewe]

Originally Posted by Cubs_rock21

You have evidence he didn't cheat? When i read articles that say what he and his teammates did was wrong, that sounds guilty. If he didn't want the signals, he still knew about it. He's not innocent. He's a great hitter and still smashes now, I think if they win this year its all legit, but no one can say anyone on that team was a saint lol.

We know, from the audio evidence, that Altuve did not (mostly) receive “bangs”. Furthermore his teammates validated he was against the system and refused to use it.

How would you advise someone in his position to prevent his teammates from doing something like this?


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[sakibomb523]

When Altuve, Bregman, Correa, and Gurriel are gone. I'll stop hating them. Tucker and Alvarez are good guys, sucks they're instantly villains for playing for the Astros.

[no10pin]

Originally Posted by SkipAway

'The system hurt them. It was actually detrimental to their performance, and it's ironic that we all care - since it made them worse.'

I can't honestly argue that if you're serious. That's a long ways away from anything logical, so I don't think we'd get far.

Unless you want to go down a gigantic rabbit hole, don't bother. He will spend the rest of the week trying to convince you that the Astros developed and continued to use this elaborate system despite it actually hurting them.