Topps out---Fanatics in

[daviswr7]

Star Wars, GPK, F1, All the euro licenses topps has, wwe....were all these licenses purchased too? If not then I have hard time believing it would be a cheap sell to Fanatics. These properties are worth some decent coin as well.

[whitmm]

Originally Posted by Stech36

I think they will lose a lot more business than you think without Topps.

A lot of set collectors will leave, and that is a significant portion of baseball buyers.

Not that it will be catastrophic, but even if they lose 10% of collectors, that is not ideal.

You expect turnover every year, regardless. The landscape of the last 10 years of products, Topps is only baseball. This current new wave of money in the hobby has no brand loyalty. They are looking at what they can make the most money on. That's not going to change.

I'm sure Fanatics is already anticipating that loss of current buyers and will be creating a plan to replace it.

But neither Topps nor Fanatics needs the other to stay as a successful business.

[kcroyalsfan8515]

Seems like going exclusive is short sighted to me.... And signing a 20 year deal in anything makes zero sense to me. Why tie yourself in to something unnecessarily? These leagues hold all the leverage. They are the only ones that have what they offer. You can get Topps, Panini, and fanatics to pay whatever. Shop their deal to others. Have 3 monster deals instead of 1 and demand they all do what fanatics is doing. I understand that fanatics has more money and topps can't match. But involve them all and have more cards for the players to make money on. Maybe I'm an idiot. My mom says I'm not... But my wife isn't so sure. Id call Fanatics bluff. I don't think they walk away if u tell them it isn't exclusive.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

[NYBBFAN]

Originally Posted by kcroyalsfan8515

Seems like going exclusive is short sighted to me.... And signing a 20 year deal in anything makes zero sense to me. Why tie yourself in to something unnecessarily? These leagues hold all the leverage. They are the only ones that have what they offer. You can get Topps, Panini, and fanatics to pay whatever. Shop their deal to others. Have 3 monster deals instead of 1 and demand they all do what fanatics is doing. I understand that fanatics has more money and topps can't match. But involve them all and have more cards for the players to make money on. Maybe I'm an idiot. My mom says I'm not... But my wife isn't so sure. Id call Fanatics bluff. I don't think they walk away if u tell them it isn't exclusive.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

I never understood the exclusive deals either, even when Topps had it. I get that MLB/PA was pissed at Upper Deck, ok, fine. But now? Why end that partnership with Topps? More competition == more $$ for the rights holder(s).

[AnthonyT]

Originally Posted by daviswr7

Star Wars, GPK, F1, All the euro licenses topps has, wwe....were all these licenses purchased too? If not then I have hard time believing it would be a cheap sell to Fanatics. These properties are worth some decent coin as well.

GPK is a Topps property. They dont need to buy the license because they own it. Same with Wacky Packages (and a few other unknown). All designs are Topps property, whether baseball or otherwise. All the other stuff are licensed, but still under Topps. If Fanatics buys Topps, then they would probably inherit the properties and licenses may or may not transfer. If they contract Topps to print sports cards, then Star Wars, GPK, etc, would be independent of Fanatics.

[OscarOne]

Originally Posted by whitmm

You expect turnover every year, regardless. The landscape of the last 10 years of products, Topps is only baseball. This current new wave of money in the hobby has no brand loyalty. They are looking at what they can make the most money on. That's not going to change.

I'm sure Fanatics is already anticipating that loss of current buyers and will be creating a plan to replace it.

But neither Topps nor Fanatics needs the other to stay as a successful business.

I collect Topps flagship Cleveland Baseball team sets. Its my thing. I love it. I guess I would continue collecting them if Fanatics puts out its own Flagship that includes a team set. My worry is that they will try to cut down on the "common" cards and produce sets that only include the big stars. If that is the case, then yea, I am done. Part of the reason I like Topps Flagship is because you get a something approaching the complete roster on the checklist.

But I also worry that I am part of a dying breed of collector, and this is just the way things work.

[Stech36]

Originally Posted by OscarOne

I collect Topps flagship Cleveland Baseball team sets. Its my thing. I love it. I guess I would continue collecting them if Fanatics puts out its own Flagship that includes a team set. My worry is that they will try to cut down on the "common" cards and produce sets that only include the big stars. If that is the case, then yea, I am done. Part of the reason I like Topps Flagship is because you get a something approaching the complete roster on the checklist.

But I also worry that I am part of a dying breed of collector, and this is just the way things work.

I really don’t think they will. Autographs and relics are the most expensive parts of the products.

[80s Kid]

NY Post article about Eisner not expecting to lose the license and how the companies behind Topps wasn’t investing in the business

https://nypost.com/2021/08/30/michae...up-with-topps/

[Mandy1320]

Originally Posted by 80s Kid

NY Post article about Eisner not expecting to lose the license and how the companies behind Topps wasn’t investing in the business

https://nypost.com/2021/08/30/michae...up-with-topps/

>"Topps will always have license"
>Cuts spending in half
>Topps loses license
>Pretends to act shocked and "blindsided"
>???
>Sells company and retires, the end.

[mfw13]

Article notes that Topps took a $200 million loan out to pay itself a special dividend last October.

That's a classic "hedge fund/PE" type move....i.e. loading up a company with debt in order to pay yourself dividends....

[MoreToppsPlease]

“Topps invested only $2 million in capital expenditures in 2019 and $1 million in 2020, according to an investor presentation, which boasted of Topps’ modest spending. The plan was to increase capex to $5 million annually in 2021 and 2022, the presentation said. (For perspective, the company’s 2020 revenue was $567 million.)”

This apparently explains the never-ending reuse and recycling of old flagship designs..

[golakers32]

Originally Posted by 80s Kid

NY Post article about Eisner not expecting to lose the license and how the companies behind Topps wasn’t investing in the business

https://nypost.com/2021/08/30/michae...up-with-topps/

Reading this article, I'm glad Eisner and the PE firm got screwed. They deserved it. Hoping Fanatics buys Topps now...and Eisner & Co. get screwed even more.

[CicadaMound]

At least Eisner wanted to invest more in Topps, Madison Dearborn (the PE firm) just wanted to load it up with debt and get paid.

Whatever else this means, I'm glad Josh Luber the StockX guy is involved, if only because someone younger than the 2.5x3.5 inch card size is in charge.

[WaiverWire]

Sounds like Topps destroyed itself by refusing to invest in its most profitable asset. Like a lot of PE owned companies, it was loaded up with debt to pay its owners dividends, rather than using that money to make the business more profitable in the long run.

https://nypost.com/2021/08/30/michae...up-with-topps/

[OscarOne]

"Others noted that Topps insisted its budget was tight even as the company in October borrowed $200 million, some of which was used to pay its owners a dividend."

Rich people are so cool.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by 80s Kid

NY Post article about Eisner not expecting to lose the license and how the companies behind Topps wasn’t investing in the business

https://nypost.com/2021/08/30/michae...up-with-topps/

The article says Madison Dearborn controls spending at Topps. It implies they have been greedy and shortsighted and have refused to invest more into Topps.

It says Eisner has wanted to invest more into the company. But it also strongly implies he was arrogant in the lead up to Topps losing its license with MLB and that he didn't consider it a realistic possibility.

The type of "investment" that the article refers to seems to be NFTs. I'm not sure how that's good news for people who are involved in physical cards.

Topps' card designs and products may have become bland and stale in recent years, but focusing on NFTs wasn't going to improve that.

The arrangement with Fanatics seems to be more of a direct partnership for the league and players than the licensing arrangement with Topps. If so, I assume whatever happens with licensed MLB cards after the Topps deal ends will be what they desire.

[fulltritty]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

The article says Madison Dearborn controls spending at Topps. It implies they have been greedy and shortsighted and have refused to invest more into Topps.

It says Eisner has wanted to invest more into the company. But it also strongly implies he was arrogant in the lead up to Topps losing its license with MLB and that he didn't consider it a realistic possibility.

The type of "investment" that the article refers to seems to be NFTs. I'm not sure how that's good news for people who are involved in physical cards.

Topps' card designs and products may have become bland and stale in recent years, but focusing on NFTs wasn't going to improve that.

The arrangement with Fanatics seems to be more of a direct partnership for the league and players than the licensing arrangement with Topps. If so, I assume whatever happens with licensed MLB cards after the Topps deal ends will be what they desire.

Let's face it. How many of us thought Topps wouldn't realistically have the MLB license after 70 years of making baseball cards?

[Pacmeyer]

Originally Posted by fulltritty

Let's face it. How many of us thought Topps wouldn't realistically have the MLB license after 70 years of making baseball cards?

Only because it's not something collectors would normally think about. It only matters when it's being taken away.

More importantly, is the loss that surprising? Money matters aside for a moment, Topps has become lazy and boring. I don't mean compared to Panini razzle dazzle speckle whatever but cards that simply look worse than what comes out of a community college graphic design class (*cough* 2021 flagship). And does anyone really need new Mego figures? How about fix your QC problems first. It just says that Topps has gone off the rails.

[fulltritty]

Originally Posted by Pacmeyer

Only because it's not something collectors would normally think about. It only matters when it's being taken away.

More importantly, is the loss that surprising? Money matters aside for a moment, Topps has become lazy and boring. I don't mean compared to Panini razzle dazzle speckle whatever but cards that simply look worse than what comes out of a community college graphic design class (*cough* 2021 flagship). And does anyone really need new Mego figures? How about fix your QC problems first. It just says that Topps has gone off the rails.

I would say this deal is only about money and the fact that MLB and the Players Union has a stake in the company.

I have no doubt MLB cares nothing about Topps designs or their QC. And if they did, the route to go would have been to contact the company and ask them to do something about it. Giving the license to a company that has never designed or produced a baseball card in their entire existence and has customer service issues themselves makes zero sense if being upset with Topps designs or QC is your reasoning.

And in actuality if you want to see better designs, competition by giving the license to multiple companies would have been much better to solve this issue. Monopolies rarely improve unless they have competition.

[Pacmeyer]

Originally Posted by fulltritty

I would say this deal is only about money and the fact that MLB and the Players Union has a stake in the company.

I have no doubt MLB cares nothing about Topps designs or their QC. And if they did, the route to go would have been to contact the company and ask them to do something about it. Giving the license to a company that has never designed or produced a baseball card in their entire existence and has customer service issues themselves makes zero sense if being upset with Topps designs or QC is your reasoning.

And in actuality if you want to see better designs, competition by giving the license to multiple companies would have been much better to solve this issue. Monopolies rarely improve unless they have competition.

Lackluster design is a factor in that very few people may end up missing Topps. Of course it's unlikely anyone at the negotiating table even mentioned design but they must have realized that, aside from the diehards who will never accept anything without a Topps logo, Fanatics won't need to try very hard to sell cards.

I mentioned QC because Topps should have been shoring up their diamond (MLB). Instead, we see them branching out into replica toys which are irrelevant to all but a small number of collectors.

[justrun7]

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/01/18-b...e-company.html

"Fanatics’ plan for the physical trading card space is to expand it by opening the market to leverage it more via direct-to-consumer offerings, according to people familiar with the matter. For example, should collectors purchase a trading card, they’ll be able to insure the asset, grade, store and even put them on a marketplace to sell or trade — all through Fanatics. The company would likely collect transaction fees, and leagues will also get valued data they crave.

Speculation on Wall Street suggests Fanatics will also attempt to buy one of the trading card companies. Panini is valued at $1.3 billion, according to PitchBook, and there are other firms, Upper Deck and Texas-based Leaf Trading Cards."

[Stech36]

Originally Posted by justrun7

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/01/18-b...e-company.html

"Fanatics’ plan for the physical trading card space is to expand it by opening the market to leverage it more via direct-to-consumer offerings, according to people familiar with the matter. For example, should collectors purchase a trading card, they’ll be able to insure the asset, grade, store and even put them on a marketplace to sell or trade — all through Fanatics. The company would likely collect transaction fees, and leagues will also get valued data they crave.

Speculation on Wall Street suggests Fanatics will also attempt to buy one of the trading card companies. Panini is valued at $1.3 billion, according to PitchBook, and there are other firms, Upper Deck and Texas-based Leaf Trading Cards."

The industry as we know it is over.

[JRX]

Originally Posted by Stech36

The industry as we know it is over.

Not long before people will question whether some of the cards even exist lol. Demand physical delivery of the cards and see how many messages you get from fanatics pressuring you to keep it safe with them.

[Mister2Bits]

Originally Posted by Stech36

The industry as we know it is over.

The good thing is we still have quite a few decades worth of history that we'll be collecting. Sealed wax is going to skyrocket

[JRX]

I'd refer everyone to the thread on the Wata gaming scandal. If fantatics is going to manufacture/grade/and have its own auction/marketplace, you aint seen nothing yet in terms of manipulation.