Nat Turner and group buy Goldin Auctions

[ThoseBackPages]

how great is that?

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by pip

I think it is reasonable to say that his is bulletproof. I've seen it up close and it really does have the best appearance of any of them. And you know what? The trimming on that card, given the scarcity and provenance, really doesn't bother me that much.

Well now I’m just confused.

[pip]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Well now I’m just confused.

Status quo?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Pink Pussycat

Wrong. Most people here have praised Nat for improving communication, and have applauded the move to dump Orlando.

And for necessary "next steps", if he can...

1. Do something similar with Sloan
2. Stop taking submissions from known Card Doctors
3. Conduct honest grade reviews on proven altered cards
4. Honor their presumed "guarantee"
5. Implement the basic use of blacklights in evaluating all cards
6. Provide rulers for each of his graders
7. Allow honest conversation on the PSA Chat Forum (without banning and censorship)

Then he will be truly worthy of praise.... We are rooting for him!

You forgot, hire graders who can tell reprints from the original cards. Good list, but I doubt anything will change with PSA. Sheep continue to send them cards no matter what they do.

[ThoseBackPages]

Pip is pro-PSA!

[pip]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

Pip is pro-PSA!

No; I'm pro-PSA when it is functioning as a TPG should. Long way to go.

[Tallguy1991]

Originally Posted by Pink Pussycat

I'm as critical of PSA as just about anyone. They've made thousands of "mistakes" in identifying altered cards as original, and their "confirmation of the grade" BS is infuriating (bordering on criminal). Their discussion forum is a joke, and they ban/censor anyone who simply wants an honest and open discussion of problematic issues.

But I do not think Nat is a bad man at all. Seems like a great and successful guy in every aspect. He has compiled a mountain of success in a short number of years, and seems to be more open and communicative than his PSA predecessors.

That said... a great way to kick off his PSA ownership would've been to displace Orlando and Sloan. What better way to send a positive message that the new Sheriff is in town, and he sincerely wants to clean things up. Since the sleaze factor remains at the top levels of PSA, so does the negative sentiment. I sincerely hope Nat finds a way to clean house and make the necessary changes.

Well, it’d appear he’s off to a good start then lol.

What gives me faith that he’ll do better than his predecessors? The fact that he’s young, megarich/successful and capable of living the rest of his life out doing whatever he wants, yet he decided to try and straighten out a notably troubled Goliath of the hobby. His position is likely to be a thankless one, if collectors perceive things as getting better he may get credit from some people but if they aren’t viewed as getting better or if it takes too long to see improvements he’s going to take near-universal blame. Not a high upside play for him financially or otherwise, especially compared to the other endeavors open to someone in his situation, and I look at that as evidence of good intent.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bruins1993]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Pip owning a T206 Wagner explains it all now. He wants maximum value of his copy by taking down Kendrick's PSA 8.

LOL, how many consignments have you had with PWCC in last two years?

I don't know what you mean by "taking down" Kendrick's PSA 8. Why should any trimmed/altered card especially one that's valued at $1M+ be given a BS numerical grade? I'm sure it would be fine graded AUTHENTIC ALTERED and the population report accurately reflecting the copies that deserve to be recognized for being pack pulled in their respective conditions.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by Tallguy1991

Well, it’d appear he’s off to a good start then lol.

What gives me faith that he’ll do better than his predecessors? The fact that he’s young, megarich/successful and capable of living the rest of his life out doing whatever he wants, yet he decided to try and straighten out a notably troubled Goliath of the hobby. His position is likely to be a thankless one, if collectors perceive things as getting better he may get credit from some people but if they aren’t viewed as getting better or if it takes too long to see improvements he’s going to take near-universal blame. Not a high upside play for him financially or otherwise, especially compared to the other endeavors open to someone in his situation, and I look at that as evidence of good intent.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Your analysis could make sense if Nat alone had bought PSA. He didn't buy it alone, he bought it with at least two other very high profile Wall Street types. IMO -- and nothing wrong with it -- this is purely a financial play, an investment opportunity.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by Bruins1993

LOL, how many consignments have you had with PWCC in last two years?

I don't know what you mean by "taking down" Kendrick's PSA 8. Why should any trimmed/altered card especially one that's valued at $1M+ be given a BS numerical grade? I'm sure it would be fine graded AUTHENTIC ALTERED and the population report accurately reflecting the copies that deserve to be recognized for being pack pulled in their respective conditions.

Look at you. So obsessed. I only use PC Sportscards for consignment. I must have posted that three dozen times over the last year. They're great people and I am happy to give them my business.

By "taking down" I meant removing the cert from the pop. You're blinded by your hate dude. Take a step back and breathe.

[pspa123]

IMO you could change the cert. on the Wagner to "sheet cut then trimmed" and it would have no effect on its value. The card's value at this point comes from its notoriety.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Bruins1993

LOL, how many consignments have you had with PWCC in last two years?

I don't know what you mean by "taking down" Kendrick's PSA 8. Why should any trimmed/altered card especially one that's valued at $1M+ be given a BS numerical grade? I'm sure it would be fine graded AUTHENTIC ALTERED and the population report accurately reflecting the copies that deserve to be recognized for being pack pulled in their respective conditions.

And what are you going to do about the other thousands of sheet cut cards that PSA has given number grades to and Beckett continues to give number grades to? Goudey Ruth's are now 250k+ with a couple hitting 1M+. Why is it only one card should be regraded?

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by rats60

And what are you going to do about the other thousands of sheet cut cards that PSA has given number grades to and Beckett continues to give number grades to? Goudey Ruth's are now 250k+ with a couple hitting 1M+. Why is it only one card should be regraded?

The Wagner is the tip of a VERY large iceberg. I don't see how at this point you can fix the iceberg. Nor am I sure I see the incentive on the part of PSA to try.

[Bruins1993]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

By "taking down" I meant removing the cert from the pop. You're blinded by your hate dude. Take a step back and breathe.

Accurate pop reporting and grading is something everyone should be able to agree upon.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by Bruins1993

Accurate pop reporting and grading is something everyone should be able to agree upon.

Did I ever say otherwise? Not sure pip agrees.

Originally Posted by pip

I think it is reasonable to say that his is bulletproof. I've seen it up close and it really does have the best appearance of any of them. And you know what? The trimming on that card, given the scarcity and provenance, really doesn't bother me that much.

[pspa123]

A good reason not to care on the Wagner is that it was already sheet cut, and AUTH only, when Mastro trimmed it. The big to-do about whether Mastro trimmed the card before he sold it to Copeland is iMO beside the point.

[KhalDrogo]

For years you guys have been triggered over the Wagner being in a numbered slab and serving as the foundation of fraud at PSA. Now we’re supposed to not care?

[This is]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

For years you guys have been triggered over the Wagner being in a numbered slab and serving as the foundation of fraud at PSA. Now we’re supposed to not care?

Do you agree that particular card was trimmed??

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

For years you guys have been triggered over the Wagner being in a numbered slab and serving as the foundation of fraud at PSA. Now we’re supposed to not care?

It's symbolic in that it shows that from the outset PSA was willing to compromise when something more important was at stake. I don't think that is the same thing as caring about the specific card being in an 8 not an AUTH holder. The real issue isn't the Wagner, it's the countless sheet cut and trimmed and recolored and filed and crease-pressed-out and bleached/chemically treated cards out there.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by This is

Do you agree that particular card was trimmed??

Seems like it from what I have read.

Originally Posted by pspa123

It's symbolic in that it shows that from the outset PSA was willing to compromise when something more important was at stake. I don't think that is the same thing as caring about the specific card being in an 8 not an AUTH holder. The real issue isn't the Wagner, it's the countless sheet cut and trimmed and recolored and filed and crease-pressed-out and bleached/chemically treated cards out there.

So what exactly are we not supposed to be bothered by on the Wagner?

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

For years you guys have been triggered over the Wagner being in a numbered slab and serving as the foundation of fraud at PSA. Now we’re supposed to not care?

It’s like PEDs.

[pip]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

For years you guys have been triggered over the Wagner being in a numbered slab and serving as the foundation of fraud at PSA. Now we’re supposed to not care?

I've never been triggered by the Wagner. Ever.

I actually knew Bob Sevchuk when I lived in N.Y. and was even in his shop out on Long Island a few times. I was aware of the origin of the Wagner from day one when Bill Mastro, using Rob Lifson's money, bought it from Alan Ray. Mastro even brought it to a show or two when the card was still raw. To tell you the truth though, the edges were never really that bad before he trimmed it.

Remember that back in 1991, years after the card entered the hobby, there really weren't any clear standards distinguishing sheet cut cards from those that were factory original. It wouldn't have been at all strange for a dealer to trim a surviving Diamond Star or Goudey sheet in the mid-1980s and then sell the cards as singles. Virtually no one would have protested. Now, keep in mind that Alan Ray had cut the Wagner from a sheet that had between 50 and 75 cards and all the cards on the sheet were pretty decently trimmed but weren't perfect. Mastro just cleaned the card up a little, which wasn't at all that usual for that era. In current times, it would have been outrageous, but you have to consider how undeveloped the hobby was back then. There were no grading services until the late 80s and no clearly defined standards for what goes in a holder and what stays out.

Could they put an "authentic" on the label now? Sure. But it wouldn't matter. At all. The value and perception of the card wouldn't change. I think that this is an unfair charge, however. Should all TPGs be required to go back and regrade every card based on TODAY'S standards? Of course not. Third party grading is an evolving science.

[pip]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Seems like it from what I have read.


So what exactly are we not supposed to be bothered by on the Wagner?

See my response above.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Seems like it from what I have read.


So what exactly are we not supposed to be bothered by on the Wagner?

The card was sheet cut long before it was trimmed. It was never in a pack. The scandal has always revolved around Mastro trimming it, but even if he hadn't, it deserved only an AUTH because PSA doesn't grade sheet cut T206s.

You can be bothered if you want, as can Bruins, and not saying it's not right to be bothered, but to me it's sui generis in that the grade doesn't affect the value one iota (everyone who has bought in the holder knew it was trimmed), so it isn't fooling anyone unlike the rest of altered cards that shouldn't be in holders where the likelihood of deception exists.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by pip

I've never been triggered by the Wagner. Ever.

I actually knew Bob Sevchuk when I lived in N.Y. and was even in his shop out on Long Island a few times. I was aware of the origin of the Wagner from day one when Bill Mastro, using Rob Lifson's money, bought it from Alan Ray. Mastro even brought it to a show or two when the card was still raw. To tell you the truth though, the edges were never really that bad before he trimmed it.

Remember that back in 1991, years after the card entered the hobby, there really weren't any clear standards distinguishing sheet cut cards from those that were factory original. It wouldn't have been at all strange for a dealer to trim a surviving Diamond Star or Goudey sheet in the mid-1980s and then sell the cards as singles. Virtually no one would have protested. Now, keep in mind that Alan Ray had cut the Wagner from a sheet that had between 50 and 75 cards and all the cards on the sheet were pretty decently trimmed but weren't perfect. Mastro just cleaned the card up a little, which wasn't at all that usual for that era. In current times, it would have been outrageous, but you have to consider how undeveloped the hobby was back then. There were no grading services until the late 80s and no clearly defined standards for what goes in a holder and what stays out.

Could they put an "authentic" on the label now? Sure. But it wouldn't matter. At all. The value and perception of the card wouldn't change. I think that this is an unfair charge, however. Should all TPGs be required to go back and regrade every card based on TODAY'S standards? Of course not. Third party grading is an evolving science.

The companion piece the Plank only got an AUTH because it was sheet cut, right?