Shaquille O'Neal rips modern NBA players:These guys now, they're pudding pops'

[TSonn]

Originally Posted by Tallboy

The TNT is having something of a reckoning because the game has passed them by.

Basically the entire crew - Chuck, Kenny, Shaq - doesn't understand what's going on well enough to deserve a job and so they're doubling down on shtick that's increasingly becoming antagonistic toward a modern game whose primary sin is simply that they are playing smarter and with more skill than ever before.

This is one of a bunch of reckonings that are in the process of happening due to the analytics-related revolution.

I honestly think Barkley gets it more than the other guys. In 2009 he called the Magic making the finals because of their 4 out style which has now become the norm - so he understood that way before any of the other guys.

[k13]

The whole league is soft and pathetic.

Part players fault part league.

[k13]

Originally Posted by Tallboy

The TNT is having something of a reckoning because the game has passed them by.

Basically the entire crew - Chuck, Kenny, Shaq - doesn't understand what's going on well enough to deserve a job and so they're doubling down on shtick that's increasingly becoming antagonistic toward a modern game whose primary sin is simply that they are playing smarter and with more skill than ever before.

This is one of a bunch of reckonings that are in the process of happening due to the analytics-related revolution.

A really problematic one that isn't being talked about in earnest:

It makes sense that we get less Black coaches than before because before we were putting people in that position largely on the basis of playing in the NBA and the assumption that being more physically talented than anyone else meant that they understood the game better than, say, an extremely intellectual college player with a strong background in modern technology.

Because our society is skewed in a way where Black Americans are less likely to be come academic intellectuals, this new class of coach is more likely to be white.

I want to be clear I'm not trying to make an antagonistic statement here on this the same way I am toward the TNT crew. The TNT crew deserves antagonism because they STARTED it, whereas these new coaching trends are a product of complexities in our society and they are going to cause problems.

We're already seeing a tendency of Black NBA players to not want white bosses, and understandably so. What happens when they see the trend not continue in the progressive direction but instead moves in (superficially) retrograde direction?

I think frankly the NBA is in a tough position being pulled in multiple directions, and if they handle it wrong, there's a possibility that star players will actually leave the NBA for another venture - quite possibly one driven by social media rather than a traditional competitor working out of the same types of arenas the NBA plays in.

These new ventures couldn't achieve NBA levels of revenue, but they don't necessarily need to in order to be a success for the stars in question, and if momentum builds in this direction the NBA could find itself in a situation where they have to downsize, which could cause a whole host of new issues.

Jacking up 3's and hoping they go in is playing smarter...
I'm sure NBA players are on the higher end of the IQ spectrum.

Took everyone 40 years to figure out that a 3 pointer can be more efficient....

They are just trying to collect money and not getting hurt while doing it that's what 99% of sports is about these days.

[Tallboy]

Originally Posted by k13

Jacking up 3's and hoping they go in is playing smarter...
I'm sure NBA players are on the higher end of the IQ spectrum.

Took everyone 40 years to figure out that a 3 pointer can be more efficient....

They are just trying to collect money and not getting hurt while doing it that's what 99% of sports is about these days.

Not sure if where the sarcasm is directed here to be honest. You might just be agreeing with me.

I'll certainly say, the fact that it took 40 years for the NBA to figure out how to use 3's is a) incredibly damaging to the reputation for all the "real basketball people" in the NBA who insisted they knew the right way to play but b) a pretty understandable kind of inertia in the face of a potential paradigm shift.

[GatorPie]

Isn't the point of the game to be entertainment, not necessarily to be "efficient"? I can't watch NBA games anymore, as it's not entertaining to see the greatest athletes in the world standing around behind a line jacking three's. You want to make the NBA exciting again? TAKE AWAY THAT DAMN 3 POINT LINE. Then we could actually see some exciting, creative basketball again.

[Tallboy]

Originally Posted by TSonn

I honestly think Barkley gets it more than the other guys. In 2009 he called the Magic making the finals because of their 4 out style which has now become the norm - so he understood that way before any of the other guys.

Eh, thing is, long after 2009 Chuck was still saying you couldn't win as a jump shooting team, so he really didn't get it.

He understood the value as a guy who thrived on the inside of having more space, but he most definitely did not understand that someone like Steph would be considerably better at basketball than he was, nor did he want to understand it.

I'll say though: I have lots of warm & fuzzies toward Chuck. He's the kind of guy who doesn't pretend like he knows everything and is okay with being owned.

I'm more critical of Shaq because a) I remember what he was like when he played, and b) he's the one who's really doubling down the most bashing the current players.

Quite frankly if TNT had asked my advice at the time about hiring Shaq I'd have said "Not while you still have Chuck, because Shaq's just going to try to out-Chuck Chuck, and your show can't handle that much stupid in an era where the sport is dominated by intelligence."

[Tallboy]

Originally Posted by GatorPie

Isn't the point of the game to be entertainment, not necessarily to be "efficient"? I can't watch NBA games anymore, as it's not entertaining to see the greatest athletes in the world standing around behind a line jacking three's. You want to make the NBA exciting again? TAKE AWAY THAT DAMN 3 POINT LINE. Then we could actually see some exciting, creative basketball again.

It's understandable if you like the way they game used to be played better, but do keep in mind that's you not liking change, not the game actually getting less entertaining in an absolute way.

If that were the case, kids wouldn't like these shooters and they'd treat the sport like they treat baseball.

But are those kids appreciating all the nuances you appreciated? Nope. Good stuff is being lost with the paradigm shifts, and that's always a bummer.

[FT35]

Originally Posted by GatorPie

Isn't the point of the game to be entertainment, not necessarily to be "efficient"? I can't watch NBA games anymore, as it's not entertaining to see the greatest athletes in the world standing around behind a line jacking three's. You want to make the NBA exciting again? TAKE AWAY THAT DAMN 3 POINT LINE. Then we could actually see some exciting, creative basketball again.

Same thing happening in baseball. Home run or bust. Players are now owned by advanced stats, and the product has been destroyed. Basketball heading that way—human creativity being replaced by nerd math. Yes, I get it. Yes, Moneyball was a great movie. Yes, Warriors were fun to watch when they rolled this model out—but what made it fun was because it was creative and uniquely them. Now everyone tries to do it thinking they will win a title if they do. Newsflash—titles go to the innovators.

[drobfan8]

Shaq is correct.

It's a whole different era. If you played under old school coaches and have been a part of any teams recently it's just far more professional.

Some guys might try to prove Shaq wrong, others will just be shamed and go about their business.

Shaq was so dominant that I hated watching the Lakers. Yes he would still destroy this League. He'd foul them all out.

I think Shaq is in a position to say what he wants.

[pac213up]

I don't blame the players, they are just a creation of the game. Defense does not sell tickets unfortunately.

[MattMiller]

I must admit, I am having a craving for Jello Pudding Pops, no denying it they were good. Same thing is happening in NFL, I miss the days of Ronnie Lot, Chuck Cecil etc... Tom Brady would of lasted 5 years. God forbid sports get physical...

[codered]

Few funny things;

- The article was about Shaq calling players mentally soft and not being able to handle criticism lol somehow every in this thread took it as physically soft and started talking about the bad boys and today’s players not being able to handle the physical game of the 80’s and 90’s. Not sure how many people read the story lol

- The biggest difference today as opposed to Shaq’s early playing days is societal. There is much more of an emphasis on mindfulness on what you say, how you say it and when you say it. Things that may have been interpreted as criticism 20 years ago and considered harassment and bullying, especially in the work place. A boss or a coach who tries to use the “tough love” approach as a way to get the most out of their player/employee is most likely seen as a verbally and mentally abusive person. As a person who has had to deal with mediating work place harassment there is definitely a difference in interpretation of what’s acceptable based on age.

- Shaq seems to forget how mentally “soft” he was during his playing days. He has admitted to having a hard time dealing with Hardaway getting more media attention and love from the fans in his Orlando days. It’s bothered him immensely and he was fairly pity about it (planet Shaq commercial anyone?). It wasn’t a big deal in Orlando because penny didn’t care and always felt like it was shaqs team. When the same situation happened in LA with Kobe we really saw how pity Shaq could be. Kobe wasn’t penny and he damn sure wasn’t taking a back seat. Shaq handled that situation like a big child. Just think if Shaq wasn’t mentally soft how many rings he could have had with Kobe?

[Tallboy]

Originally Posted by FT35

Same thing happening in baseball. Home run or bust. Players are now owned by advanced stats, and the product has been destroyed. Basketball heading that way—human creativity being replaced by nerd math. Yes, I get it. Yes, Moneyball was a great movie. Yes, Warriors were fun to watch when they rolled this model out—but what made it fun was because it was creative and uniquely them. Now everyone tries to do it thinking they will win a title if they do. Newsflash—titles go to the innovators.

So one thing I wanted to say:

The 3-point thing is just another in a long line of revolutions in basketball that stem from human athletes proving to be more capable than humans realized.

First there was chaos with players playing a bunch of different ways.

Then came "Scientific Basketball" peaking in the '20s with the Original Celtics where the goal was to systematically get the ball as close to the basket as possible.

Then came Hank Luisetti & Bobby McDermott shooting from range.

Then came George Mikan & Bob Kurland as the first giants, who pushed offense again closer to the rim.

If humans had simply known 100 years ago that humans could reliably hit shots from 3-point range, we'd have been playing like this 100 years ago.

So while analytics helped us figure this recent stuff out, people should keep in mind that all previous forms of playing focusing on other strategies were fundamentally based on the assumption that humans sucked at throwing projectiles accurately...which if you know anything about the history of human evolution, was not a wise bet to make.

I admire Bill Russell above all other team athletes and love the style of the ABA above all, but I think it's important to keep in mind that these older paradigms held sway only because humans underestimated what the human body was capable of, and I think we should reserve part of our appreciation for the skill involved in watching the modern greats, because in an absolutely objective sense: They are making better use of the human form on the basketball court than pervious eras did.

[SupermanBrandon]

Shaq is paid to run his mouth. The bigger the reaction, the more he gets paid.

[GOATcards]

So Shaq was too mentally soft to take criticism for doing grandma-style free throws?

[ninjacookies]

The Inside the NBA crew has the cumulative analytical knowledge of a random.org selected BO member.

Shaq couldn't even come up with the first names of 4 dudes on an NBA roster (one happened to be Mitchell Robinson) when pressed a few days back.


Take their opinions as arbitrary lewd couch banter amongst casuals. They can break down plays like the former players they are...but as far as understanding and knowing current players and the modern landscape they are completely lost.

Purely entertainment and shock jock ish; treat it accordingly.

[Tallboy]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

So Shaq was too mentally soft to take criticism for doing grandma-style free throws?

Yes.

Also, I believe he used to emphasized that he did practice free throws and could hit them in practice, which he said so that people wouldn't see him as lazy. But of course, players who can hit free throws in practice but not in the game are kinda by definition, soft.

Shaq's biggest problem has always been an insecurity that causes him to rip others for things he's guilty of, and then mock them for handling it emotionally like he handles things emotionally.

[Noles939913]

Originally Posted by codered

Few funny things;

- The article was about Shaq calling players mentally soft and not being able to handle criticism lol somehow every in this thread took it as physically soft and started talking about the bad boys and today’s players not being able to handle the physical game of the 80’s and 90’s. Not sure how many people read the story lol

- The biggest difference today as opposed to Shaq’s early playing days is societal. There is much more of an emphasis on mindfulness on what you say, how you say it and when you say it. Things that may have been interpreted as criticism 20 years ago and considered harassment and bullying, especially in the work place. A boss or a coach who tries to use the “tough love” approach as a way to get the most out of their player/employee is most likely seen as a verbally and mentally abusive person. As a person who has had to deal with mediating work place harassment there is definitely a difference in interpretation of what’s acceptable based on age.

- Shaq seems to forget how mentally “soft” he was during his playing days. He has admitted to having a hard time dealing with Hardaway getting more media attention and love from the fans in his Orlando days. It’s bothered him immensely and he was fairly pity about it (planet Shaq commercial anyone?). It wasn’t a big deal in Orlando because penny didn’t care and always felt like it was shaqs team. When the same situation happened in LA with Kobe we really saw how pity Shaq could be. Kobe wasn’t penny and he damn sure wasn’t taking a back seat. Shaq handled that situation like a big child. Just think if Shaq wasn’t mentally soft how many rings he could have had with Kobe?

Oh please Kobe was just as bad. It absolutely drove him insane that Shaq won all three Finals MVPs. I could be wrong but I also don’t think that’s how you use “pity” in a sentence.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by Tallboy

It's understandable if you like the way they game used to be played better, but do keep in mind that's you not liking change, not the game actually getting less entertaining in an absolute way.

If that were the case, kids wouldn't like these shooters and they'd treat the sport like they treat baseball.

But are those kids appreciating all the nuances you appreciated? Nope. Good stuff is being lost with the paradigm shifts, and that's always a bummer.

Shooting and making baskets is a huge part of basketball, no? Dont see why all the hate.

[codered]

Originally Posted by Noles939913

Oh please Kobe was just as bad. It absolutely drove him insane that Shaq won all three Finals MVPs. I could be wrong but I also don’t think that’s how you use “pity” in a sentence.

Haha stupid iPhone autocorrect “petty” to pity!!!! Twice!!! Yes I agree both were bad. Both were super passive aggressive with the media about the whole situation. Just making a point that Shaq wasn’t the hard azz gangster he thinks he was

[mfw13]

It's not just the way the game is played that has changed, but also the way the game is called by the refs.

Imagine some of the 80's stars like MJ, Magic, Bird, Drexler, Dominique, etc. if they were allowed to Eurostep or take step-back threes....both of which were travelling back then. And don't get me started on how many of today's stars get away with palming the ball.

The game today is played by completely different rules than it was 25 years ago....

[GatorPie]

Originally Posted by Tallboy

It's understandable if you like the way they game used to be played better, but do keep in mind that's you not liking change, not the game actually getting less entertaining in an absolute way.

If that were the case, kids wouldn't like these shooters and they'd treat the sport like they treat baseball.

But are those kids appreciating all the nuances you appreciated? Nope. Good stuff is being lost with the paradigm shifts, and that's always a bummer.

You missed my point a little bit. I'm middle-aged now, but in my 20's I played a lot of basketball and would shoot 200 balls a day outside - it was just sort of a hobby. As a result I could hit those NBA-length 3's at a pretty good rate. Just takes a lot of practice.

So what's my point? If I can do it, there sure as hell isn't that much special about it. NBA players were the best athletes in the world 30 years ago and are the best athletes in the world today. I want to see them doing things I could never have dreamed of physically doing. It's a friggin' waste to see these guys standing around behind a line. Take that line away, and inside creativity would return to the game. What we have now is lazy, boring basketball. They are wasting their immense talents.

[ejs23]

Originally Posted by GatorPie

NBA players were the best athletes in the world 30 years ago and are the best athletes in the world today.

Nope. I suppose you could define “best athletes in the world” to make this work, but without some mental gymnastics this just isn’t true.

[Spacemanspif]

Originally Posted by GatorPie

You missed my point a little bit. I'm middle-aged now, but in my 20's I played a lot of basketball and would shoot 200 balls a day outside - it was just sort of a hobby. As a result I could hit those NBA-length 3's at a pretty good rate. Just takes a lot of practice.

So what's my point? If I can do it, there sure as hell isn't that much special about it. NBA players were the best athletes in the world 30 years ago and are the best athletes in the world today. I want to see them doing things I could never have dreamed of physically doing. It's a friggin' waste to see these guys standing around behind a line. Take that line away, and inside creativity would return to the game. What we have now is lazy, boring basketball. They are wasting their immense talents.

they can shoot better. they can jump higher. they are faster. there are 7-footers utilizing crossovers and stepbacks. it's not hard to find highlights of them doing "things you could never dream of physically doing." as much as you practice, whatever your concept of "at a pretty good rate" is, it's less than even the 200th best NBA player can hit. also, there's absolutely nothing creative about slowly backing someone down in the post 40 times a game. I'm sure you could practice backing down a chair and taking jump hooks as well, so not sure what point you even think you're making.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by mfw13

It's not just the way the game is played that has changed, but also the way the game is called by the refs.

Imagine some of the 80's stars like MJ, Magic, Bird, Drexler, Dominique, etc. if they were allowed to Eurostep or take step-back threes....both of which were travelling back then. And don't get me started on how many of today's stars get away with palming the ball.

The game today is played by completely different rules than it was 25 years ago....

AI was carrying all over the place. Didnt get called at all.