HGA grading

[CheapThief]

It just amazes me that there are millions upon millions of dollars on offer for anyone who can actually put together an outfit that can grade cards with a reasonable degree of accuracy, and nobody seems capable of doing it.

This isn't like unlocking the secret to cold fusion. You get the card, you measure the card, you look it over, and if there are no obvious defects it gets a 10. If there's one minor defect that a buyer probably won't detect at first glance, but that they can detect after a reasonably careful examination, it gets a 9.

Rinse, wash, repeat. Eighty percent of the guys on this board are, I am sure, capable of doing this, yet there don't appear to be any entrepreneurs who want to assemble a crew of 15 guys who possess this basic skill and launch a company.

[salthill]

Originally Posted by CheapThief

yet there don't appear to be any entrepreneurs who want to assemble a crew of 15 guys who possess this basic skill and launch a company.

It really is that simple isn’t it?! (Is my eye roll audible from there?)

[CheapThief]

Originally Posted by salthill

It really is that simple isn’t it?! (Is my eye roll audible from there?)

No, but it's simple enough. I've been grading cards for 21 years, and in that time not a single company has entered the market that's established any sort of long-term credibility. That's a really, really long time considering the possible rewards.

[tmoore_25]

Well let me know when CheapThief Grading is available for submissions. I might give them a try. If you've seen the list floating around, you'd realize that there are between 50-100 different grading companies that have given this a try. The fact that none of them are perfect just goes to show how difficult the job is.

Take grading for what it is, an opinion that in many cases has inherent value to it. If you agree with that opinion and the card looks aesthetically pleasing to you, then purchase the card. If not, then move on. Too many people want to armchair quarterback the hobby as if they are the expert, but apparently are too inept to really do anything about it.

[KhalDrogo]

Why start your own grading company when you can grade cards yourself, make better money, and keep your day job?

[rfgilles]

Originally Posted by rngrdanny22

Anyone figured out, or heard, what type of "AI" they are using?

Or is it just a marketing ploy?

Best I can tell, this is just GMA in a pretty package. How many employees do they have? Are they also located in a basement?

That's what I think as well. They say they are developing (as not yet in place) technology but aren't transparent for how the cards are actually graded. If they had software up and running you would think they would provide some examples on their website. They don't. And what are the criteria for their grading cut-offs?

[rfgilles]

Originally Posted by KepCards

I caught that too when I was looking at their cards on Ebay...I was also kinda stumped by the 10 centering grade, when I can see with my eyes that the right border is wider than the left...I would think a 10, using A.I., would mean 50/50...but then again, they don't have any grading info on their site that I am aware of

Not necessarily, if they set the cut-off at 55/45 or 60/40.

[The_Reverend]

I do wish them luck, but until their re-sell prices begin to consistently touch the numbers of PSA I will not send a single card to them. Fancy case or not, it is still about ROI. If a person likes the case, but know going on the ROI might be half that of PSA, great! When prices continue to lag later on, there is no need to complain about how much lower prices are. Some might say trying this new company “what do you have to lose?” My money!

[SupermanBrandon]

Originally Posted by rngrdanny22

Anyone figured out, or heard, what type of "AI" they are using?

Or is it just a marketing ploy?

Best I can tell, this is just GMA in a pretty package. How many employees do they have? Are they also located in a basement?

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it...you come into a market desperately seeking transparency. You claim you are changing the game w/ AI technology. Yet the only thing we've seen are "sick, dope" labels. Marketing 101 says you lead w/ your big 900lb gorilla...the AI. Show it off. Show it working. Give social content around it. Yet, we have nothing. Barely a mention of it. Then you have errors of mis-spelled names, wrong labels, subs not adding correctly, and encasing errors. As others have said...you can't even get your computers talking to each other to print the right labels. How in the world did you build game changing AI grading technology?

[leveljumper]

Originally Posted by SupermanBrandon

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it...you come into a market desperately seeking transparency. You claim you are changing the game w/ AI technology. Yet the only thing we've seen are "sick, dope" labels. Marketing 101 says you lead w/ your big 900lb gorilla...the AI. Show it off. Show it working. Give social content around it. Yet, we have nothing. Barely a mention of it. Then you have errors of mis-spelled names, wrong labels, subs not adding correctly, and encasing errors. As others have said...you can't even get your computers talking to each other to print the right labels. How in the world did you build game changing AI grading technology?

They primarily communicate through Facebook it seems, so if you aren’t following them there you won’t see the answers to these questions. They’ve stated there that they are using programming currently set to 60/40 for gem centering (the same standard psa uses for centering). They said that they could make it tighter, but if they did it would be less gem grades overall, which is what a lot of people SAY they want, but then when the time comes they don’t really want it because it drives down the value of the card (see SGC 9.5 selling for around the sale or less as a PSA 9 for example). They counter this by having two grades above a gem, just like BGS does, to reward cards with true 50/50 centering. They just put out a statement on the McGwire tonight that I’ll post screenshots of.


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[leveljumper]

Originally Posted by The_Reverend

I do wish them luck, but until their re-sell prices begin to consistently touch the numbers of PSA I will not send a single card to them. Fancy case or not, it is still about ROI. If a person likes the case, but know going on the ROI might be half that of PSA, great! When prices continue to lag later on, there is no need to complain about how much lower prices are. Some might say trying this new company “what do you have to lose?” My money!

If you’re looking for resale prices, they are consistently close or equal to PSA pricing on most of their cards that have gone to auction so far. The biggest missed I’ve seen when comparing them to PSA are from people setting BiN prices too low and people jump on them. There were two HGA auctions I saw end tonight, one was a Herbert rookie debut color that ended at about 82% of the most recent PSA green debut camp, but a bit closer if you’re comparing it to all PSA debut color gem 10 sales that are more recent than that gem 10 green from PSA.

The other is a Joe Burrow Mosaic Pink Camo prizm. That one ended 95% of the most recent PSA 10 comp, so even better. You also have to keep in mind that the turnaround time for HGA is substantially faster, and time is money. If you don’t have your cards, you can’t sell your cards and PSA keeps them longer and BGS and SGC aren’t currently comping as close to PSA as HGA is.


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[leveljumper]

From the most recent HGA Facebook post, addressing the McGwire card here.


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[leveljumper]

Part 2 of the statement regarding the McGwire


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[leveljumper]

Originally Posted by rfgilles

Not necessarily, if they set the cut-off at 55/45 or 60/40.

Bingo, this is exactly what they’re doing to have results similar to PSA so that things should theoretically gem evenly at both companies.


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[PostBaloney]

Gonna try to submit some cards tomorrow. Love the Facebook post, transparency and everything I'm seeing so far.

[rfgilles]

Originally Posted by PostBaloney

Gonna try to submit some cards tomorrow. Love the Facebook post, transparency and everything I'm seeing so far.

What transparency? They provide no information whatsoever on their grading process, eg, cut-offs, grader vs software.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by leveljumper

They primarily communicate through Facebook it seems, so if you aren’t following them there you won’t see the answers to these questions. They’ve stated there that they are using programming currently set to 60/40 for gem centering (the same standard psa uses for centering). They said that they could make it tighter, but if they did it would be less gem grades overall, which is what a lot of people SAY they want, but then when the time comes they don’t really want it because it drives down the value of the card (see SGC 9.5 selling for around the sale or less as a PSA 9 for example). They counter this by having two grades above a gem, just like BGS does, to reward cards with true 50/50 centering. They just put out a statement on the McGwire tonight that I’ll post screenshots of.


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So explain the centering since you seem to know so much. A 60/40 card gets a 10 for centering. If the rest of the subs are 10 also, what is the overall grade?

[leveljumper]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

So explain the centering since you seem to know so much. A 60/40 card gets a 10 for centering. If the rest of the subs are 10 also, what is the overall grade?

Based on talking to them, I would assume that it would be a 9.5 gem mint. I’m sure if you message them and ask on their Facebook they could confirm for you, though.


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[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by leveljumper

Part 2 of the statement regarding the McGwire


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So a 6/10 front with a 10/10 back would get an 8.5 for centering, and could be a 9.5 overall with 9.5/9.5/10 subs for the rest. Handing out gems like candy because that is what people want, as they wrote themselves.

Good to see their insight though.

[leveljumper]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

So a 6/10 front with a 10/10 back would get an 8.5 for centering, and could be a 9.5 overall with 9.5/9.5/10 subs for the rest. Handing out gems like candy because that is what people want, as they wrote themselves.

Good to see their insight though.

So far they are the most transparent grading company by far that I’ve seen. I’m sure if you message them and ask them they will answer your questions.


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[rfgilles]

Originally Posted by leveljumper

They primarily communicate through Facebook it seems, so if you aren’t following them there you won’t see the answers to these questions. They’ve stated there that they are using programming currently set to 60/40 for gem centering (the same standard psa uses for centering). They said that they could make it tighter, but if they did it would be less gem grades overall, which is what a lot of people SAY they want, but then when the time comes they don’t really want it because it drives down the value of the card (see SGC 9.5 selling for around the sale or less as a PSA 9 for example). They counter this by having two grades above a gem, just like BGS does, to reward cards with true 50/50 centering. They just put out a statement on the McGwire tonight that I’ll post screenshots of.


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Based on the posted Facebook excerpt, the 60/40 refers to weighing front centering vs back centering, eg, (hypothetical example) front centering 10 x 0.6 and back centering 8 x 0.4 = 9.2 overall centering grade.

This doesn't appear to refer to the guidelines for a cut-off for 10 centering vs 9.5 vs 9.0. For example, if a card has 59/41 TB centering, what would the centering grade be? They don't disclose that.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by leveljumper

Based on talking to them, I would assume that it would be a 9.5 gem mint. I’m sure if you message them and ask on their Facebook they could confirm for you, though.


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How would it be a 9.5 if they take the average of the four subgrades? Don't need to message them about this. They answered the question previously.

[PostBaloney]

Originally Posted by rfgilles

What transparency? They provide no information whatsoever on their grading process, eg, cut-offs, grader vs software.

Transparency about mistakes made, what they’re doing to prevent them/fix them. New hires, production increase, etc. The owner gives updates on Facebook several times a week whereas the CEO of PSA might send out an email update once per quarter if that.
Don’t care to know every detail of how they calculate grades as long as they are somewhat inline with others and most importantly can get them graded in a timely fashion. I’m tired of waiting for PSA orders and having no idea when they’ll be done.

[rfgilles]

Originally Posted by PostBaloney

Transparency about mistakes made, what they’re doing to prevent them/fix them. New hires, production increase, etc. The owner gives updates on Facebook several times a week whereas the CEO of PSA might send out an email update once per quarter if that.
Don’t care to know every detail of how they calculate grades as long as they are somewhat inline with others and most importantly can get them graded in a timely fashion. I’m tired of waiting for PSA orders and having no idea when they’ll be done.

To me, this is absolutely the most important question. They don't provide even the most basic info on their grading process, eg, how much is human grader vs software, weighing scores, cut-offs, is the software fully developed. If they are going to have any long-term credibility this info needs to be provided. To not disclose this information seems disingenuous.

Even their name "hybrid" suggests combining software with humans.

It seems their main selling point at this time is that they have the nicest looking slabs.

If they had fully software-driven objective grading and specified their criteria for cut-offs, I would definitely be interested.

[rfgilles]

Originally Posted by SupermanBrandon

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it...you come into a market desperately seeking transparency. You claim you are changing the game w/ AI technology. Yet the only thing we've seen are "sick, dope" labels. Marketing 101 says you lead w/ your big 900lb gorilla...the AI. Show it off. Show it working. Give social content around it. Yet, we have nothing. Barely a mention of it. Then you have errors of mis-spelled names, wrong labels, subs not adding correctly, and encasing errors. As others have said...you can't even get your computers talking to each other to print the right labels. How in the world did you build game changing AI grading technology?

Amen.