Panini America Announces Plan to Address Kobe Bryant Autograph Redemptions

[jjohnson114]

Originally Posted by Spacemanspif

you're being given $2000 for your sticker redemption. don't worry about people "who deserve less" getting what you got too.

I see both sides of this. If Panini provided an ounce of transparency this would be much easier to digest. Again, we're saying that these are $2,000 packs, but they were $4,000 to $5,000 packs a month ago. As more packs are released the market price will continue to drop. I feel like less than half of the packs have been released and just yesterday one sold for around $1,800. I could easily see them dropping to the $1,000 range, at which point would be a loss for those with lower numbered autos. Again, remember that Panini's horrible processes and customer service have greatly compounded this situation. They by no means deserve a pat on the back for printing more cardboard at little cost to them.

[jjohnson114]

Originally Posted by giovipks

I was “given” a $2000 pack for a $4000 card. My post isn’t about being greedy just identifying what is fair. This wouldn’t be fair value based on lower value autos getting the same replacement value. Sorry if you missed that.


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Agreed 1000%

[giovipks]

Originally Posted by jjohnson114

I see both sides of this. If Panini provided an ounce of transparency this would be much easier to digest. Again, we're saying that these are $2,000 packs, but they were $4,000 to $5,000 packs a month ago. As more packs are released the market price will continue to drop. I feel like less than half of the packs have been released and just yesterday one sold for around $1,800. I could easily see them dropping to the $1,000 range, at which point would be a loss for those with lower numbered autos. Again, remember that Panini's horrible processes and customer service have greatly compounded this situation. They by no means deserve a pat on the back for printing more cardboard at little cost to them.

Bingo. That’s the second issues I didn’t raise above. Those who got the packs first got even more resale value than those currently getting them. Being as fair as possible with value should have been their number 1 goal. They had 1 year to figure out a plan and still messed it up. All packs and autos should have went out at once.


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[CC_123]

Originally Posted by doubledribble

Will it though? There's what 3780 packs? Does that cover all of the outstanding Kobe autos or will a bunch be held back?

3780 packs really isn't that many in the scheme of things. They will 100% start to dry up. There will probably be a little dip the next two weeks with so many getting listed, but after that, they will start to tick upward again as less and less pop up.

[jjohnson114]

Originally Posted by jjohnson114

I see both sides of this. If Panini provided an ounce of transparency this would be much easier to digest. Again, we're saying that these are $2,000 packs, but they were $4,000 to $5,000 packs a month ago. As more packs are released the market price will continue to drop. I feel like less than half of the packs have been released and just yesterday one sold for around $1,800. I could easily see them dropping to the $1,000 range, at which point would be a loss for those with lower numbered autos. Again, remember that Panini's horrible processes and customer service have greatly compounded this situation. They by no means deserve a pat on the back for printing more cardboard at little cost to them.

One more thing....I know that we talk about the prices increasing due to Kobe's death, but there was going to likely be a market increase due to the card market's red hot run and Kobe entering the Hall of Fame. He has a large international following and did not over-saturate the market with his autos.

[CC_123]

Originally Posted by jjohnson114

One more thing....I know that we talk about the prices increasing due to Kobe's death, but there was going to likely be a market increase due to the card market's red hot run and Kobe entering the Hall of Fame. He has a large international following and did not over-saturate the market with his autos.

Well....Kobe signed A LOT. There was a reason why you could access his autos without any issues for $80-$120 prior to his passing.

[Cavaliercards]

Originally Posted by giovipks

I was “given” a $2000 pack for a $4000 card. My post isn’t about being greedy just identifying what is fair. This wouldn’t be fair value based on lower value autos getting the same replacement value. Sorry if you missed that.


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No you were given a $2000 pack for a $200 card if you are talking about a 2019-20 Prizm Autograph or $197 for a BGS 9.5 2018-19 Silver Prizm Mosaic, as I think you referred to a Silver Prizm Auto Prior.

[jjohnson114]

Originally Posted by giovipks

Bingo. That’s the second issues I didn’t raise above. Those who got the packs first got even more resale value than those currently getting them. Being as fair as possible with value should have been their number 1 goal. They had 1 year to figure out a plan and still messed it up. All packs and autos should have went out at once.


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Exactly. They should be embarrassed that it has taken them this long to issue less than 4,000 cards or packs. They were sitting on all of the info they needed for over a year. Panini is 100% responsible for this mess and should have provided a truly equitable solution. Instead, they likely spent less than they would have had Kobe signed everything prior to his passing.

[Cavaliercards]

Originally Posted by jjohnson114

I see both sides of this. If Panini provided an ounce of transparency this would be much easier to digest. Again, we're saying that these are $2,000 packs, but they were $4,000 to $5,000 packs a month ago. As more packs are released the market price will continue to drop. I feel like less than half of the packs have been released and just yesterday one sold for around $1,800. I could easily see them dropping to the $1,000 range, at which point would be a loss for those with lower numbered autos. Again, remember that Panini's horrible processes and customer service have greatly compounded this situation. They by no means deserve a pat on the back for printing more cardboard at little cost to them.

Flawless Auto /10 last January Prior to the Death sold for $380

Flawless /15 $242

Eminence /10 $300

Flawless /5 $359

Eminence /5 $559

Eminence /10 $409

Eminence /3 $375

Prizm Fast Break Gold /10 $250

[Cavaliercards]

Originally Posted by jjohnson114

Exactly. They should be embarrassed that it has taken them this long to issue less than 4,000 cards or packs. They were sitting on all of the info they needed for over a year. Panini is 100% responsible for this mess and should have provided a truly equitable solution. Instead, they likely spent less than they would have had Kobe signed everything prior to his passing.

Kobe signed as he got time, this is not him or not on Panini. As a Spokesman and in accordance with their licensing rules they had to have him in a certain number of product. He would do signings a few times a year and get a batch done. He was pursuing a lot of interests and was not going to just sit around and sign every time Panini did a product. We have done signings for the trading card companies where we have had in our hands products from years earlier.

Little over than a month into this Panini went into lockdown because of a global pandemic. On January 27th Panini was not calling Vanessa Bryant and the Mamba Team saying hey guys we have a small issue here. They waited out of respect as they should. They mourned his loss, respected his family, and when the time was right a representative from his estate started contacting everyone that Kobe had a contract/business interest with to get things straight. Then a plan was sent back for approval by the estate and by his wife. This was not going to ever be a quick process and the pandemic did hamper the situation.

[jjohnson114]

Originally Posted by Cavaliercards

No you were given a $2000 pack for a $200 card if you are talking about a 2019-20 Prizm Autograph or $197 for a BGS 9.5 2018-19 Silver Prizm Mosaic, as I think you referred to a Silver Prizm Auto Prior.

You are correct "if" Panini put this plan forward immediately following his death. However, in typical Panini fashion, they waited nearly a year and the market changed. That is Panini's problem, not the customers.

I know you have an allegiance to Panini, but what if they actually followed through on their responsibilities in a timely manner? Assuming they did and he still suddenly passed in January, there would be zero redemption issues at this time and the market would dictate the price, which would likely be in the ranges that we're seeing now, as there are no other autos to be had. And again, he's entering the Hall this year and the market is red hot.

This is a problem that Panini created to a certain extent. With the number of 2019-20 products they issued there is no way that they couldn't have substituted something and resolved this issue in February or March.

[giovipks]

Originally Posted by Cavaliercards

No you were given a $2000 pack for a $200 card if you are talking about a 2019-20 Prizm Autograph or $197 for a BGS 9.5 2018-19 Silver Prizm Mosaic, as I think you referred to a Silver Prizm Auto Prior.

Find me those prices and I’ll buy every single one. They don’t exist. The value of a replacement is always based on when the transaction is being finished. When they replaced my other autos they didn’t say well let’s see the Beckett value when you pulled it. It’s current market. That should be implied but it’s Econ 101. Please find me those autos you referenced. I’ll buy all and give you a $50 finders fee for each one you find me at those prices


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[jjohnson114]

Originally Posted by Cavaliercards

Flawless Auto /10 last January Prior to the Death sold for $380

Flawless /15 $242

Eminence /10 $300

Flawless /5 $359

Eminence /5 $559

Eminence /10 $409

Eminence /3 $375

Prizm Fast Break Gold /10 $250

See my note....if these were honored PRIOR to his passing as they should have been, the market would dictate the price. Panini and their laziness in getting the customer the autos that they promised with their redemptions has created this problem. I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand.

[giovipks]

Originally Posted by jjohnson114

You are correct "if" Panini put this plan forward immediately following his death. However, in typical Panini fashion, they waited nearly a year and the market changed. That is Panini's problem, not the customers.

I know you have an allegiance to Panini, but what if they actually followed through on their responsibilities in a timely manner? Assuming they did and he still suddenly passed in January, there would be zero redemption issues at this time and the market would dictate the price, which would likely be in the ranges that we're seeing now, as there are no other autos to be had. And again, he's entering the Hall this year and the market is red hot.

This is a problem that Panini created to a certain extent. With the number of 2019-20 products they issued there is no way that they couldn't have substituted something and resolved this issue in February or March.

You understand. He sounds like a panini rep. I’ve been waiting 2 years for this auto and 3 years for another which also is likely getting a pack. He had time.


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[Cavaliercards]

Originally Posted by jjohnson114

You are correct "if" Panini put this plan forward immediately following his death. However, in typical Panini fashion, they waited nearly a year and the market changed. That is Panini's problem, not the customers.

I know you have an allegiance to Panini, but what if they actually followed through on their responsibilities in a timely manner? Assuming they did and he still suddenly passed in January, there would be zero redemption issues at this time and the market would dictate the price, which would likely be in the ranges that we're seeing now, as there are no other autos to be had. And again, he's entering the Hall this year and the market is red hot.

This is a problem that Panini created to a certain extent. With the number of 2019-20 products they issued there is no way that they couldn't have substituted something and resolved this issue in February or March.

There was never going to be a plan immediately after the death in a normal year. You are incorrect on allegiances. Kobe's estate would have destroyed any attempts at resolving this in February or March with a special set and it would have been incredibly disrespectful.

Read my comment above the signings were done in batches, we did a signing with a Top 10 NBA HOFer (as designated by the media multiple times) for a company. We walked in with couple thousand cards and stickers. We walked out with stickers signed and a few hundred cards (some newer some older) and he said he would do the rest another day. This included cards from five years prior. The company had a responsibility as did the player, but player did what he wanted and that was that.

[Cavaliercards]

Originally Posted by giovipks

Find me those prices and I’ll buy every single one. They don’t exist. The value of a replacement is always based on when the transaction is being finished. When they replaced my other autos they didn’t say well let’s see the Beckett value when you pulled it. It’s current market. That should be implied but it’s Econ 101. Please find me those autos you referenced. I’ll buy all and give you a $50 finders fee for each one you find me at those prices


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No it is not based on that value and I can point you to over 100 threads complaining of such from every manufacturer on here.

[Cavaliercards]

Originally Posted by jjohnson114

See my note....if these were honored PRIOR to his passing as they should have been, the market would dictate the price. Panini and their laziness in getting the customer the autos that they promised with their redemptions has created this problem. I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand.

They were honored as you input your redemption in, just like Topps with Jose Fernandez. The upvalue was not given. Then you are calling Kobe just as lazy by that metric, which he was not.

[jjohnson114]

Originally Posted by Cavaliercards

They were honored as you input your redemption in, just like Topps with Jose Fernandez. The upvalue was not given. Then you are calling Kobe just as lazy by that metric, which he was not.

I’m not necessarily calling Kobe lazy. What I’m saying is that there is a systematic problem with card manufacturers (led by Panini) not honoring the commitments they made when they indicate that a certain card and quantity is included in the product. If they truly honored redemptions in a timely manner after they were redeemed many would not be in this situation right now. Only the current year redemptions would be an issue.

Originally Posted by Cavaliercards

There was never going to be a plan immediately after the death in a normal year. You are incorrect on allegiances. Kobe's estate would have destroyed any attempts at resolving this in February or March with a special set and it would have been incredibly disrespectful.

Read my comment above the signings were done in batches, we did a signing with a Top 10 NBA HOFer (as designated by the media multiple times) for a company. We walked in with couple thousand cards and stickers. We walked out with stickers signed and a few hundred cards (some newer some older) and he said he would do the rest another day. This included cards from five years prior. The company had a responsibility as did the player, but player did what he wanted and that was that.

I get that. However no plan was developed or communicated to those who Panini had outstanding redemptions or “contracts” with. Nobody buys a product in 2015 (just picked a random year) with the expectation of receiving the product in 2021. There is no reasonable explanation for this. Most consumers would be adamantly against this due to potential market variances, death of an athlete being one of them.

I mentioned laziness because there are ample opportunities to obtain autographs if you really try. But they don’t. They send a box to a house where someone gets to it when they want to. There are no penalties and new products are often signed ahead of previous “contractual obligations”. Instead of using agents, push the process and honor your commitments by sending your own people to games or events - they have the profit margins to do so.

As for operating during the pandemic, I call BS. I’ll give them a month or so, but Panini has clearly released a record number of products during this time, and is likely working on a similar number of products for upcoming releases at this time. Ultimately, they don’t care about honoring commitments once they have our money. That’s where the real issue lies.

[Cavaliercards]

Originally Posted by jjohnson114

I’m not necessarily calling Kobe lazy. What I’m saying is that there is a systematic problem with card manufacturers (led by Panini) not honoring the commitments they made when they indicate that a certain card and quantity is included in the product.



I get that. However no plan was developed or communicated to those who Panini had outstanding redemptions or “contracts” with. Nobody buys a product in 2015 (just picked a random year) with the expectation of receiving the product in 2021. There is no reasonable explanation for this. Most consumers would be adamantly against this due to potential market variances, death of an athlete being one of them.

I mentioned laziness because there are ample opportunities to obtain autographs if you really try. But they don’t. They send a box to a house where someone gets to it when they want to. There are no penalties and new products are often signed ahead of previous “contractual obligations”. Instead of using agents, push the process and honor your commitments by sending your own people to games or events - they have the profit margins to do so.

As for operating during the pandemic, I call BS. I’ll give them a month or so, but Panini has clearly released a record number of products during this time, and is likely working on a similar number of products for upcoming releases at this time. Ultimately, they don’t care about honoring commitments once they have our money. That’s where the real issue lies.

Panini doesn’t sign for Kobe, so you are looking at this 3D situation in a 1D way. They are beholden to the athlete.

They could not announce a plan without his estates permission after his death, unless plan involved them saying everyone gets points based on pre-death prices.

Not how licensing works sending them to games, Panini wouldn’t get past security to get to Kobe. Far as complaining to a Player’s Agent do that and you will have what happened with another company and the NBAPA where the players said try us, NFL players have done same. Then again you have licensing and Players Association that have contracts saying they can not do certain avenues. Every company is beholden to the athlete, period end of story. Even Brian Grey had a contract with an athlete that tweeted sue me. They do not have the profit margins to send employees to do all the signings. Prices would be triple if they had to and did not use agents, family members, marketing people, etc to handle the signings.

Not bs they can send products to printers with 3 people in office and other people remote. We know employees working thousands of miles away on releases to this date and products still coming out and people involved aren’t in the office and haven’t been in Texas in months. Pandemic impacted them and the Bryant estate. Vanessa’s thoughts in month after her husband and daughter died wasn’t let me make sure basketball card collectors are ok with their replacements, nor was it his teams who worked hand in hand with Panini to get him to sign some cards from time to time prior.

[jjohnson114]

Originally Posted by Cavaliercards

Panini doesn’t sign for Kobe, so you are looking at this 3D situation in a 1D way. They are beholden to the athlete.

They could not announce a plan without his estates permission after his death, unless plan involved them saying everyone gets points based on pre-death prices.

Not how licensing works sending them to games, Panini wouldn’t get past security to get to Kobe. Far as Agent do that and you will have what happened with another company and the NBAPA where the players said try us, NFL players have done same. Then again you have licensing and Players Association that have contracts saying they can not do certain avenues. They do jot have the profit margins to send employees to do all the signings. Prices would be triple if they had to and did not use agents, family members, marketing people, etc to handle the signings.

Not bs they can send products to printers with 3 people in office and other people remote. We know employees working thousands of miles away on releases to this date and products still coming out and people involved aren’t in the office and haven’t been in Texas in months. Pandemic impacted them and the Bryant estate. Vanessa’s thoughts i in month after her husband and daughter died wasn’t let me make sure basketba card collectors are ok with their replacements, nor was it his teams who worked hand in hand with Panini to get him to sign some cards from time to time prior.

I am by no means saying that the family or those close to him should have been bothered while they were grieving. Never said that. What I did say is that there was absolutely no plan in place (I have emails that confirm this) until late summer. During this time a plan could have been put in place (maybe options A through whatever) to properly execute the communication and distribution. Instead, we’re all in the dark and those that received autographs or packs in early December are in a much better position than those receiving theirs now or in the future, regardless of what was redeemed.

As for the redemption process, it is not perfect with other companies, but is executed in a much timelier manner (Topps is a reasonable example). Basically, if an athlete is not honoring commitments in a timely manner on 2013 to 2018 releases, why the hell are they in every product in 2019? Panini knows that they are not delivering and still continues to include redemptions in the 2019 products. Why? One answer....greed. They are legally liable to deliver on their contracts (redemptions) just as we are when we pay with a credit card. Can I buy a box on their site and file a chargeback if I receive a redemption that they have no intention of honoring? I would go to jail but they just release more and more product.

[Cavaliercards]

Originally Posted by jjohnson114

I am by no means saying that the family or those close to him should have been bothered while they were grieving. Never said that. What I did say is that there was absolutely no plan in place (I have emails that confirm this) until late summer. During this time a plan could have been put in place (maybe options A through whatever) to properly execute the communication and distribution. Instead, we’re all in the dark and those that received autographs or packs in early December are in a much better position than those receiving theirs now or in the future, regardless of what was redeemed.

As for the redemption process, it is not perfect with other companies, but is executed in a much timelier manner (Topps is a reasonable example). Basically, if an athlete is not honoring commitments in a timely manner on 2013 to 2018 release, why the hell are they in every product in 2019? Panini knows that they are not delivering and still continues to include redemptions in the 2019 products. Why? One answer....greed. They are legally liable to deliver on their contracts (redemptions) just as we are when we pay with a credit card. Can I buy a box on their site and file a chargeback if I receive a redemption that they have no intention of honoring? I would go to jail but they just release more and more product.

There was not going to be a plan until they had permission from his estate on how to move forward. That was public knowledge. They could not announce a potential plan involving Kobe without his estates permission, they could not even say there may be a special tribute set. NBA licensing even was involved in this situation and making sure things did not occur until it was appropriate. Far as getting replacement or redemption first that’s how it all is, someone will get theirs first.

Might want to go look at some more Topps threads there are enough complaints about them as well. There is never going to be a perfect redemption system, best suggestion I have is no redemptions, if card can’t be made then everyone gets points and when card is available you can use points to get it. It is not Panini exclusive why they keep being put into products and it is not greed. It is licensing agreement with the leagues for certain hits and certain amount of products and certain number of spokespeople hits. Just like with every league and every company. Read the back of every company’s redemption they can substitute that item. Again the athlete says they will sign and if they don’t do it, then nothing can be done. Your credit card analogy has been tried in federal court regarding redemptions and not been found to be a valid argument. All companies agree to substitute. In baseball recent players have gone from hot prospect to all star and mvp, they refused to sign unless they were given more money by Topps. Redemptions kept coming and they replaced most of them in the long run. There was a contract but they knew not to mess with PA and league. Athlete holds all the power, not you, not me, not the trading card companies.

[jjohnson114]

Originally Posted by Cavaliercards

There was not going to be a plan until they had permission from his estate on how to move forward. That was public knowledge. They could not announce a potential plan involving Kobe without his estates permission, they could not even say there may be a special tribute set. NBA licensing even was involved in this situation and making sure things did not occur until it was appropriate. Far as getting replacement or redemption first that’s how it all is, someone will get theirs first.

Might want to go look at some more Topps threads there are enough complaints about them as well. There is never going to be a perfect redemption system, best suggestion I have is no redemptions, if card can’t be made then everyone gets points and when card is available you can use points to get it. It is not Panini exclusive why they keep being put into products and it is not greed. It is licensing agreement with the leagues for certain hits and certain amount of products and certain number of spokespeople hits. Just like with every league and every company. Read the back of every company’s redemption they can substitute that item. Again the athlete says they will sign and if they don’t do it, then nothing can be done. Your credit card analogy has been tried in federal court regarding redemptions and not been found to be a valid argument. All companies agree to substitute. In baseball recent players have gone from hot prospect to all star and mvp, they refused to sign unless they were given more money by Topps. Redemptions kept coming and they replaced most of them in the long run. There was a contract but they knew not to mess with PA and league. Athlete holds all the power, not you, not me, not the trading card companies.

The process is beyond broken. Again, I get that the estate and PA need to give their approval. However, they should have all been prepared and shipped the same week or two, not dragged out for months. This is nothing more than disregard for the customer.

I wish I understood your angle in defending Panini so adamantly. They are destroying our hobby by creating more of a bubble and distrust than we had in the 90’s. Again, they are driven by nothing other than greed. Feel free to prove me wrong.

[Cavaliercards]

Originally Posted by jjohnson114

The process is beyond broken. Again, I get that tge estate and PA need to give their approval. However, they should have all been prepared and shipped the same week or two, not dragged out for months. This is nothing more than disregard for the customer.

I wish I understood your angle in defending Panini so adamantly. They are destroying our hobby by creating more of a bubble and distrust than we had in the 90’s. Again, they are driven by nothing other than greed. Feel free to prove me wrong.

This is not disregard at all, this is making the best of a bad situation.
It is not the personal affront you keep making it out to be. No company does a large scale replacement of this size shipped at one time, not one nor will they ever.

I am defending all the companies with this actually, as it is uniform. You keep trying to make the solo, when it is not. All companies are doing same thing, and yet you keep trying to say greed and greed when it is not relevant in this situation. Panini is not setting the prices jumping on singles and boxes, Topps is not choosing how many products can be made and at what price tiers (low, middle, and high), Upper Deck is not choosing minimal amount of hits they have to have. You have been wrong and I have pointed it out but you just keep swearing it is greed and an affront. Yes, the companies do wish to make profit just like every for profit company, but there is a difference between that and the greed term you keep tossing around. Why I said this is 3D not 1D.

[doubledribble]

Anyone keeping track of the cards coming out of packs? So far a ja #/20 seems like the best card to hit ebay.

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[CC_123]

Originally Posted by doubledribble

Anyone keeping track of the cards coming out of packs? So far a ja #/20 seems like the best card to hit ebay.

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I've seen a LeBron /20, LeBron /24, Zion NBA Debut /20, Zion Base /24, Morant /20, Rui /20, RJ Barrett /20, Morant /24, Steph Curry /20. So some really nice stuff has been hit, but I haven't seen any 1/1, /8, or /10 of big name guys.