2020 Politics Thread - Enter At Your Own Risk - RULES IN OP

[lionsfan20]

Originally Posted by cnewby

Won't change the outcome but I am glad some of the issues will be exposed and cleaned up for future elections.

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[cnewby]

Originally Posted by lionsfan20

Won't change the outcome but I am glad some of the issues will be exposed and cleaned up for future elections.

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For sure. Agree.

[Zedlaw]

Originally Posted by techtre2003

1) I have no idea why he did it. If we had a media that was actually interested in reporting rather than making Trump look as bad as they can perhaps we'd know.
2) It's called slowly eroding rights. Of course they aren't just going to kick in doors; yet. All I can say is although you don't realize it you're lucky you have people who will stand up against this garbage even if you don't agree.

I find this post a great illustration about where we are at.

Democrats feel point 1 is slowly eroding democracy and Republicans don’t seem to mind.

Republicans feel point 2 is slowly eroding personal rights and Democrats don’t seem to mind.

Democrats take solace in the power of the people while Republicans feel power comes from the individual.

[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by mike1498

1) you did say "As to the first part, yeah. So, should we bail out all business in trouble, or just those affected by Covid. Should we pay everyone's mortgage and float every business? Sounds a lot like communism to me."



I don't know how that doesn't imply that I was "for communism"



2) You 100% are picking winners and losers. Everyone chooses to use their money for something. Some of these people's lives are invested in their businesses and other depend on these businesses staying afloat. You are only holding businesses accountable for their reckless spending and not individuals. How is that not picking and choosing winners?

"Sounds a lot like communism" is not saying I think you are in favor of it. It was implying your position is confusing because I know you're not for communism.

I don't think "choosing winners and losers" means what you think it means. Choosing winners and losers means giving an edge to one company over a direct competitor in the same sector.

Supporting grocery stores while letting gyms fail is not choosing winners and losers. Supporting one grocery store and letting a different grocery store fail would be picking winners and losers.

Business owners take a risk. Government does not insure investments. If the market takes a hit, is the government going to compensate everyone who owned a losing stock?


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[JustinVerlander07]

Originally Posted by ballhawkdawk

I’ll pluck out this post because this idea keeps getting repeated...

We missed the f’ing boat.

Trying to get compliance from 350 million Americans all at once has proven to be impossible. If lockdowns work (let’s assume they do... I don’t know and don’t care), our best shot was early on in April / May when compliance was highest and roads were empty. Many of us gave it our best shot. For two months I was only around two people... my wife and my daughter. I went to the grocery store once every ~ 10 days. I stopped getting my son every weekend for that time period. That’s over, though. That’s just the story of one guy who did legitimately try early on and realized the Covid clock was going to continue to reset every single time a large enough group got together.

There have been hundreds of protests, there have been large outdoor parties, and there have been large scale sporting event celebrations. Why should I attempt this again, knowing with absolute certainty there will be another protest deemed more important than a pandemic? That’s one aspect. Another aspect is that a lot of people are mentally over this at this point. They’re willing to live (or die) with the consequences for whatever reasons they may have.

It’s a waste of time to even consider lockdowns again. Even if 98% of the population is on board early on, the remaining 2% will keep it going, and then some of the 98% will decide lockdowns are pointless, and then there will be a protest to save the turtles, and then we’re back to square one. It’s ova.

Spot on post. People were over lockdowns in early May. It definitely wouldn't fly now. Right or wrong people would be defiant out of principle. Nobody wants to do it again after seeing how the last several months have unfolded.

[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by cnewby

Yay courts!

Legal votes need to be counted, illegal votes need to be rejected, regardless of the outcome.

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[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by Jopeal

What do you have against turtles?



Heartless.

Sometimes they escape into the sewers, mutate into some crazy beast, and become ninjas. I'm not okay with that.

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[ballhawkdawk]

Originally Posted by JustRachel

He stops being an owner of a failing business.

I get your point. But if he and his employees can get some help to get them through the pandemic, then the business itself can fail. He can reopen when demand returns, or be replaced by another gym.

Why should I pay for his business? I'd gladly help him with food, rent, whatever, until the pandemic is under control. But I don't want to finance his investment on the government's dime.

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There's a lot to unpack here. His business could've been thriving, but maybe he was hanging on by a thread with six months of lockdowns, and another round would crush him. He could've just opened his business a month before lockdowns and taken out a bunch of loans to get going, and now he's screwed. It's not as simple as just "reopen when it's over." Many of these businesses are still paying hefty rent. I know a number of business owners who, when lockdowns first started, exhausted savings to try to pay their employees and pay their monthly bills associated with the business to make sure the employees were taken care of and the bills were paid. Maybe he loses his business after doing everything he could to save it, and now he can't pay his mortgage.

Many small business owners aren't making a killing. They just have a business... that's it. Small business is the lifeblood of a lot of communities. That's how the economy works. Imagine our cities without small businesses. There'd be nothing left. I'm not saying you should pay for his business, but you need to try harder if you're going to convince me that we can just let small businesses fail and then when the dust clears, they'll just pop right back up, or a new business (started by who?) will go in its place.

I say everyone suffers. No bail outs, no stimulus. I don't care how bad it hurts or who suffers. We couldn't ride out the lockdown because we wanted to protest, party, whatever else. Now it's pain time. I'm well prepared for everything. I have money in all kinds of places. You don't think you should pay for someone's business... I'll raise you... I don't think I should pay for someone's anything. If you (not you specifically, but anyone) go homeless, not my problem. Should've saw it coming and been better prepared. I'm either all in or all out, but don't believe in playing favorites.

[Jopeal]

Originally Posted by JustRachel

Sometimes they escape into the sewers, mutate into some crazy beast, and become ninjas. I'm not okay with that.

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They're protecting the city from fascism

[techtre2003]

Originally Posted by ballhawkdawk

There's a lot to unpack here. His business could've been thriving, but maybe he was hanging on by a thread with six months of lockdowns, and another round would crush him. He could've just opened his business a month before lockdowns and taken out a bunch of loans to get going, and now he's screwed. It's not as simple as just "reopen when it's over." Many of these businesses are still paying hefty rent. I know a number of business owners who, when lockdowns first started, exhausted savings to try to pay their employees and pay their monthly bills associated with the business to make sure the employees were taken care of and the bills were paid. Maybe he loses his business after doing everything he could to save it, and now he can't pay his mortgage.

Many small business owners aren't making a killing. They just have a business... that's it. Small business is the lifeblood of a lot of communities. That's how the economy works. Imagine our cities without small businesses. There'd be nothing left. I'm not saying you should pay for his business, but you need to try harder if you're going to convince me that we can just let small businesses fail and then when the dust clears, they'll just pop right back up, or a new business (started by who?) will go in its place.

I say everyone suffers. No bail outs, no stimulus. I don't care how bad it hurts or who suffers. We couldn't ride out the lockdown because we wanted to protest, party, whatever else. Now it's pain time. I'm well prepared for everything. I have money in all kinds of places. You don't think you should pay for someone's business... I'll raise you... I don't think I should pay for someone's anything. If you (not you specifically, but anyone) go homeless, not my problem. Should've saw it coming and been better prepared. I'm either all in or all out, but don't believe in playing favorites.

Thanks, I started to reply but decided to just drop it. Your post sums up my thoughts pretty well.

[charnick]

Originally Posted by techtre2003

That's the tricky part. How does a gym owner for example hang in there if the government doesn't allow his business to be open?

Did you know that reopening guidelines are often based on test positivity rate? Get the number down low enough, things that might be closed can start to reopen.

Do you get tested on the reg? Even if you know you're clean and healthy, getting tested regularly contributes to lowering that overall test positivity rate.

So instead of popping off on the boards, you can actually do something about keeping your local gym in business! I hope you care as much as you purport to, step up and do your part!

[Brobocop]

On the Pennsylvania ruling, were those ballots that were waiting to be cured counted or just set aside to be counted once cured? Couldn't find that out.

[techtre2003]

Originally Posted by JustRachel

"Sounds a lot like communism" is not saying I think you are in favor of it. It was implying your position is confusing because I know you're not for communism.

I don't think "choosing winners and losers" means what you think it means. Choosing winners and losers means giving an edge to one company over a direct competitor in the same sector.

Supporting grocery stores while letting gyms fail is not choosing winners and losers. Supporting one grocery store and letting a different grocery store fail would be picking winners and losers.

Business owners take a risk. Government does not insure investments. If the market takes a hit, is the government going to compensate everyone who owned a losing stock?


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Unless you're a big bank, airline, or auto manufacturer.

[ballhawkdawk]

Originally Posted by Jopeal

What do you have against turtles?

Heartless.

Nothing. I actually try to save the turtles (don't tell anyone). My wife told me them plastic jawns that six packs of soft drinks come in will end up in the ocean and get wrapped around their heads, so I always make sure to pull them apart before throwing them out. I'm a pretty soft guy... I just play a bad guy on the internet.

[discostu]

Originally Posted by cnewby

More coffee needed.

Are these the same ballots that have not yet been counted because they were already set aside in an "uncured" state?

So yes, it's a "victory" for Trump, maybe he doesn't lose Pennsylvania by 100,000 votes, maybe he just loses by 75,000 votes.

Take the wins where you can.

Victory indeed!

[cnewby]

Originally Posted by discostu

Victory indeed!

Sho is, more to come.

[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by ballhawkdawk

There's a lot to unpack here. His business could've been thriving, but maybe he was hanging on by a thread with six months of lockdowns, and another round would crush him. He could've just opened his business a month before lockdowns and taken out a bunch of loans to get going, and now he's screwed. It's not as simple as just "reopen when it's over." Many of these businesses are still paying hefty rent. I know a number of business owners who, when lockdowns first started, exhausted savings to try to pay their employees and pay their monthly bills associated with the business to make sure the employees were taken care of and the bills were paid. Maybe he loses his business after doing everything he could to save it, and now he can't pay his mortgage.



Many small business owners aren't making a killing. They just have a business... that's it. Small business is the lifeblood of a lot of communities. That's how the economy works. Imagine our cities without small businesses. There'd be nothing left. I'm not saying you should pay for his business, but you need to try harder if you're going to convince me that we can just let small businesses fail and then when the dust clears, they'll just pop right back up, or a new business (started by who?) will go in its place.



I say everyone suffers. No bail outs, no stimulus. I don't care how bad it hurts or who suffers. We couldn't ride out the lockdown because we wanted to protest, party, whatever else. Now it's pain time. I'm well prepared for everything. I have money in all kinds of places. You don't think you should pay for someone's business... I'll raise you... I don't think I should pay for someone's anything. If you (not you specifically, but anyone) go homeless, not my problem. Should've saw it coming and been better prepared. I'm either all in or all out, but don't believe in playing favorites.

Fair enough on all points.

There are lots of unspecified variables in our gym scenario. Like you, I don't care much what the situation is with the owner. That's his problem and he needs to solve it without the contents of my wallet. Obviously, as you noted, that's gonna bring pain. Yep, I'm cool with that too. Sometimes things just suck. It is what it is. Also, not my wallet's problem.

I feel differently about the human side though. While I respect your stance, I just have a hard time walking past a hungry person without helping. That's my choice though, and I have no right to offer them anything from your wallet. (Yeah, I'm that schmuck that goes to a deli and buys a dozen sandwiches once a month or so and hands them out to homeless people that sleep under the Metrorail near my home. It makes me feel good.)

Still, people pay taxes and part of those taxes they pay is intended for a safety net. In some instances, they're entitled to it. Unemployment and whatnot is part of what our government promises, and we can't go back on that now. But those benefits are limited, and maybe not limited enough, but limited to helping people in need, not anyone who made a risky investment and rolled snake eyes.

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[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by techtre2003

Unless you're a big bank, airline, or auto manufacturer.

True lol. I guess that backs up Mike's point about winners. I stand corrected.


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[NeedChapmans]

Originally Posted by Brobocop

On the Pennsylvania ruling, were those ballots that were waiting to be cured counted or just set aside to be counted once cured? Couldn't find that out.

A ruling was issued November 5th instructing PA to set aside the ballots that were not cured by the 9th. Thus any ballot who did not meet the guideline was not yet counted (and now will not be counted).

No votes will be subtracted from current totals as a result of the ruling.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ots-judge-says

[sonnyday]

Originally Posted by JustRachel

I'm all for a safety net. Safety nets are for people, not entities.

The PPP Loan saved 800 jobs for my company. My company is the safety net for all them and all their families.

We were able to continue payroll while shut down. When business turn back on in late April, our revenue went from $3,200,00 a month to $1,200,000 a month. Instead of laying off 50% of our workforce, we were able to keep employing them and keep paying 1/2 their health insurance.

I do not think is socialism one bit. And yes the american tax payer will likely foot the bill. But its better to foot the bill for the PPP Loan then the soup kitchen line.

[techtre2003]

Originally Posted by charnick

Did you know that reopening guidelines are often based on test positivity rate? Get the number down low enough, things that might be closed can start to reopen.

Do you get tested on the reg? Even if you know you're clean and healthy, getting tested regularly contributes to lowering that overall test positivity rate.

So instead of popping off on the boards, you can actually do something about keeping your local gym in business! I hope you care as much as you purport to, step up and do your part!

My local gym is in business. As I posted earlier COVID isn't really an issue in my area. The thing is IL was separated into regions and my region is doing the best in the state; as of the end of October we were under 3% testing positive when the threshold is 8%. We shouldn't be in this newest lockdown stage and that's why businesses are defying orders. I mean, when you have Lori Lightfoot even disagreeing with Pritzker that tells you something. In my opinion JB is pissed he spent $56 million out of his own pocket to push moving to a progressive tax which the voters rejected so he's trying to show us peons who's boss.

[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by sonnyday

The PPP Loan saved 800 jobs for my company. My company is the safety net for all them and all their families.



We were able to continue payroll while shut down. When business turn back on in late April, our revenue went from $3,200,00 a month to $1,200,000 a month. Instead of laying off 50% of our workforce, we were able to keep employing them and keep paying 1/2 their health insurance.



I do not think is socialism one bit. And yes the american tax payer will likely foot the bill. But its better to foot the bill for the PPP Loan then the soup kitchen line.

Well I'm glad your company was able to put some of the mismanaged funds to good use. Kudos for that.

Your company is not the safety net though. The PPP is. Also, socialism seems like a broad label and I'm not so concerned with labels. It is what it is regardless of what we call it. Maybe the label fits, maybe not...but the label itself changes nothing imo.

I'd rather foot the bill for the soup kitchen line. If your company provides a desired product (or service), and apparently it does, then as soon as America is functioning again the desire for your product will be fulfilled, one way or another. If opportunity exists, someone steps up. In terms of what the nation needs, I'd say capitalism will sort it all out.

That being said, I'm happy that you're doing well and that at least some of the stimulus did some good for some people. If all of the stimulus was used to help people like your company used it, I would be less likely to oppose it.

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[Jopeal]

Originally Posted by ballhawkdawk

Nothing. I actually try to save the turtles (don't tell anyone). My wife told me them plastic jawns that six packs of soft drinks come in will end up in the ocean and get wrapped around their heads, so I always make sure to pull them apart before throwing them out. I'm a pretty soft guy... I just play a bad guy on the internet.

I know. Your secret's safe.

[ballhawkdawk]

Originally Posted by JustRachel

Fair enough on all points.

There are lots of unspecified variables in our gym scenario. Like you, I don't care much what the situation is with the owner. That's his problem and he needs to solve it without the contents of my wallet. Obviously, as you noted, that's gonna bring pain. Yep, I'm cool with that too. Sometimes things just suck. It is what it is. Also, not my wallet's problem.

I feel differently about the human side though. While I respect your stance, I just have a hard time walking past a hungry person without helping. That's my choice though, and I have no right to offer them anything from your wallet. (Yeah, I'm that schmuck that goes to a deli and buys a dozen sandwiches once a month or so and hands them out to homeless people that sleep under the Metrorail near my home. It makes me feel good.)

Still, people pay taxes and part of those taxes they pay is intended for a safety net. In some instances, they're entitled to it. Unemployment and whatnot is part of what our government promises, and we can't go back on that now. But those benefits are limited, and maybe not limited enough, but limited to helping people in need, not anyone who made a risky investment and rolled snake eyes.

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I'll occasionally take a homeless guy to lunch as long as they don't look like they're on heroin. Keep your AIDS away from me, bro. I'm not handing out a dozen hoagies a month, though... I'm too greedy for all that. One of my points was that I see the ripple effect of a small business closing when I think about that scenario, not just a business owner losing his business. I don't see why that person gets left out in the cold and stuck with a real uphill battle once we've moved past this. Everybody gets a check or we all suffer together.

[Jopeal]

Originally Posted by sonnyday

The PPP Loan saved 800 jobs for my company. My company is the safety net for all them and all their families.

We were able to continue payroll while shut down. When business turn back on in late April, our revenue went from $3,200,00 a month to $1,200,000 a month. Instead of laying off 50% of our workforce, we were able to keep employing them and keep paying 1/2 their health insurance.

I do not think is socialism one bit. And yes the american tax payer will likely foot the bill. But its better to foot the bill for the PPP Loan then the soup kitchen line.

Thanks for sharing and glad to hear the PPP loan was a success.
This is socialism though.