2020 Politics Thread - Enter At Your Own Risk - RULES IN OP

[mike1498]

And to be clear, to me, being proLGBT is treating them with the rights that everyone else has. If someone was to discriminate against them, I’d have a problem with that. I don’t think privacy rights based on sex is discrimination. I suppose that’s an argument but unless you group them all together, I’d say I’m pro LGBT as well. I could care less what they do in their free time as long as it doesn’t infringe on other people’s rights.

[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by mike1498

And to be clear, to me, being proLGBT is treating them with the rights that everyone else has. If someone was to discriminate against them, I’d have a problem with that. I don’t think privacy rights based on sex is discrimination. I suppose that’s an argument but unless you group them all together, I’d say I’m pro LGBT as well. I could care less what they do in their free time as long as it doesn’t infringe on other people’s rights.

I hear you. I think we can, as a society, accommodate everyone if we just rethink the way we do a few things.

But back to the original point. Trump has tried many times to curtail what trans people think are their rights. Can we agree?

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[mike1498]

Originally Posted by JustRachel

Wow, there's a lot there ^^ to disect. You said a lot in a few words, lol.

I am pro, yes...in a general sense. Just like I can lean right without agreeing straight down the ticket, I can be pro LGBTQ rights without agreeing on every single issue they face. Correct so far?

Do I support the procedures and no restroom requirements? Kind of. I'd like to see the bathroom issue revisited in a different way, actually. I'd prefer bathrooms were single-user. Go in, do your thing, next person goes in after. I get creeped out by anyone of any gender in a bathroom with me. I also think that solves the trans thing too. Bathrooms (women's, anyway) already have stalls for private use. Make the stalls more robust, problem solved.

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So where is the disconnect between you and Trump then? Either you need to be straight down the ticket on it or you don't.

I don't think anyone has a problem with single use bathrooms. We just all realize it's unrealistic. Maybe not smaller places but sports venues, colleges etc. there just isn't enough room to be efficient.

[Brobocop]

Originally Posted by mike1498

Okay, so based on what you said, your pro LGBT so you support the procedures and no restroom requirements? Is that what proLGBT is these days? I have to basically give up my rights to be supportive of another group? Or does being pro LGBT means that I support their outlook on life when it doesn’t infringe on the rights of others?

Well the T in LGBT is transgendered. I support a person using the restroom of their preferred gender.

There was all this outcry about it because people like to live in fantasy worlds where a bearded man could say they identify as a woman and then use the restroom next to your little daughter and nobody would bat an eye. I am also in favor of just single person restrooms. Just have four or so rooms that a person could use. It'd probably save a bit on space since I imagine 99.9% of the time, public restrooms in places like Target go unused.

[mike1498]

Originally Posted by JustRachel

I hear you. I think we can, as a society, accommodate everyone if we just rethink the way we do a few things.

But back to the original point. Trump has tried many times to curtail what trans people think are their rights. Can we agree?

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Sure if you admit you aren't pro LGBT. Why because some people have issues with only the privacy part of it makes them antiLGBT? You admitted you don't agree completely with it.

[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by mike1498

And to be clear, to me, being proLGBT is treating them with the rights that everyone else has. If someone was to discriminate against them, I’d have a problem with that. I don’t think privacy rights based on sex is discrimination. I suppose that’s an argument but unless you group them all together, I’d say I’m pro LGBT as well. I could care less what they do in their free time as long as it doesn’t infringe on other people’s rights.

What if....

This happened back in the 90s. I was in a McDonald's at like 9pm. There was a family there with a couple young kids, maybe 5-6 years old. A gay couple wandered in and we're placing their order when they decided to hold hands.

The father of the kids flipped out. He told them to take that shyt back to their bedroom. He didn't think his kids should be seeing it.

Who's rights were in need of protection? The father's, the kids', the gay couple?

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[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by mike1498

Sure if you admit you aren't pro LGBT. Why because some people have issues with only the privacy part of it makes them antiLGBT? You admitted you don't agree completely with it.

But I am pro LGBTQ. Lol. Perhaps more importantly, why does it matter what label I wear?

Trump and I do not see the issue the same way. I would not have done what his administration has done in terms of trans rights. Label it however...he and I do not agree.

Does that make me liberal? Maybe, one that one point for sure. But who cares? It's just a one size fits all term that doesn't quite fit right.

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[discostu]

I'm not going to hammer people for not understanding transgender Americans, it's not an easy thing to wrap your brain around. The 'T' in LBGTQ+ is typically the most confusing.

One thing however, to say that a transgender woman has the "mind of a man" would be incorrect.

Also, the idea that cisgender men are somehow disguising themselves to get into women's restrooms masquerading as women en masse is incorrect.

(Note: I'm fully aware that some of you will chase down anecdotes to counter the above, but it's folly. Move on.)

[Boo]

Originally Posted by JustRachel

What if....

This happened back in the 90s. I was in a McDonald's at like 9pm. There was a family there with a couple young kids, maybe 5-6 years old. A gay couple wandered in and we're placing their order when they decided to hold hands.

The father of the kids flipped out. He told them to take that shyt back to their bedroom. He didn't think his kids should be seeing it.

Who's rights were in need of protection? The father's, the kids', the gay couple?

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Seems no one's right were infringed upon. People just had different opinion (which happens every minute of every day). The father had the right to say something and the people had a right to hold hands, which both did.

[mike1498]

Originally Posted by Brobocop

Well the T in LGBT is transgendered. I support a person using the restroom of their preferred gender.

There was all this outcry about it because people like to live in fantasy worlds where a bearded man could say they identify as a woman and then use the restroom next to your little daughter and nobody would bat an eye. I am also in favor of just single person restrooms. Just have four or so rooms that a person could use. It'd probably save a bit on space since I imagine 99.9% of the time, public restrooms in places like Target go unused.

As someone who had to clean the bathrooms at Target I can assure you that's farthest from the truth lol.

And to your point, it's a fair argument. At the end of the day someone's rights are being infringed upon. I do think it's an unfair situation for either side, because you can't define privacy.

That being said, does having different views about privacy make me antiLGBT? Does that mean I support them being discriminated against.

Also to me everyone says a single use bathroom system that are too afraid to say they like the current system. We all know it isn't realistic in larger areas.

[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by Boo

Seems no one's right were infringed upon. People just had different opinion (which happens every minute of every day). The father had the right to say something and the people had a right to hold hands, which both did.

Reasonable.

But what if that gay couple was treated like that everywhere they went? What if they were subjected to insults or whatever? What if their problem was systemic rather than isolated? What if they began to fear for their safety?

I hear what you're saying. None of that happened in that mcdonald's that night. But I'd like to think that a gay couple can go to a restaurant and hold hands without being insulted or bullied. Today, I think they probably can. Back then, not so much.

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[mike1498]

Originally Posted by JustRachel

But I am pro LGBTQ. Lol. Perhaps more importantly, why does it matter what label I wear?

Trump and I do not see the issue the same way. I would not have done what his administration has done in terms of trans rights. Label it however...he and I do not agree.

Does that make me liberal? Maybe, one that one point for sure. But who cares? It's just a one size fits all term that doesn't quite fit right.

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Basically this is the conversation and feel free to correct me where it's wrong.

You: I'm Pro-LGBT, Trump isn't
Me: Trump isn't really Anti LGBT he just has issues for certain privacy rights
You: So he's anti LGBT
Me: So do you support everyone using the same bathroom
You: Not really...
Me: So then are you anti LGBT?
You: No
Me: So what's the difference between you and trump?

[Boo]

Originally Posted by JustRachel

Reasonable.

But what if that gay couple was treated like that everywhere they went? What if they were subjected to insults or whatever? What if their problem was systemic rather than isolated? What if they began to fear for their safety?

I hear what you're saying. None of that happened in that mcdonald's that night. But I'd like to think that a gay couple can go to a restaurant and hold hands without being insulted or bullied. Today, I think they probably can. Back then, not so much.

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To be clear, you want to suppress free speech?

[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by mike1498

As someone who had to clean the bathrooms at Target I can assure you that's farthest from the truth lol.



And to your point, it's a fair argument. At the end of the day someone's rights are being infringed upon. I do think it's an unfair situation for either side, because you can't define privacy.



That being said, does having different views about privacy make me antiLGBT? Does that mean I support them being discriminated against.



Also to me everyone says a single use bathroom system that are too afraid to say they like the current system. We all know it isn't realistic in larger areas.

I am not afraid to say I like the current system. I actually don't like it. Big difference.

We've been doing bathrooms the same way for a long time. Maybe it's time to update them.

Extra space? How so? All ya gotta do is make those walls that form stalls go all the way up and all the way down to the floor. Maybe make em slightly thicker for soundproofing and improve the lock on the inside of the door. Boom. Done.

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[mike1498]

Originally Posted by JustRachel

I am not afraid to say I like the current system. I actually don't like it. Big difference.

We've been doing bathrooms the same way for a long time. Maybe it's time to update them.

Extra space? How so? All ya gotta do is make those walls that form stalls go all the way up and all the way down to the floor. Maybe make em slightly thicker for soundproofing and improve the lock on the inside of the door. Boom. Done.

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You’re not being realistic. I think everyone agrees that a single person system is the best solution but it doesn’t exist on a large scale, why?

[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by Boo

To be clear, you want to suppress free speech?

Free speech is already suppressed in many ways.

I would like to see anti-bullying or anti-hate crime legislation, though I think we already have that and I'd leave that to Constitutional experts to hammer out.

What do you propose, if anything?

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[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by mike1498

You’re not being realistic. I think everyone agrees that a single person system is the best solution but it doesn’t exist on a large scale, why?

Because it hasn't been done yet.

Seriously, it's not that hard. Too many blowhards out there say crap like "why should I have to" nonsense. It exists on a smaller scale and it works. Give it a couple decades, it's the way of the future.

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[Boo]

Originally Posted by JustRachel

Free speech is already suppressed in many ways.

I would like to see anti-bullying or anti-hate crime legislation, though I think we already have that and I'd leave that to Constitutional experts to hammer out.

What do you propose, if anything?

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Is calling Trump supporters nazi or racist ok? Is it any different than what you laid out?

Wouldn't Congress need to pass a law, not Trump?

I propose people put their big boy/girl pants on and deal with life. Stop worrying about what other people say.

[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by mike1498

Basically this is the conversation and feel free to correct me where it's wrong.

You: I'm Pro-LGBT, Trump isn't
Me: Trump isn't really Anti LGBT he just has issues for certain privacy rights
You: So he's anti LGBT
Me: So do you support everyone using the same bathroom
You: Not really...
Me: So then are you anti LGBT?
You: No
Me: So what's the difference between you and trump?

Umm, yeah. Not so much.

There are dozens of examples in the link I posted about Trump's policies. They're not all about bsthrooms, lol. Honestly, I doubt bathrooms is even in the top 5 issues for transpeople. They want workplace protections, fair housing, marriage rights, etc.

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[mike1498]

Originally Posted by JustRachel

Because it hasn't been done yet.

Seriously, it's not that hard. Too many blowhards out there say crap like "why should I have to" nonsense. It exists on a smaller scale and it works. Give it a couple decades, it's the way of the future.

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See you really do let the media talk to you. I’d like to believe most the world isn’t the radical right. Just most business aren’t going to allocate half their store to bathrooms. A sports venue isn’t going to increase the size of its already long bathroom lines to change urinals to stalls

[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by Boo

Is calling Trump supporters nazi or racist ok? Is it any different than what you laid out?



Wouldn't Congress need to pass a law, not Trump?



I propose people put their big boy/girl pants on and deal with life. Stop worrying about what other people say.

Lol.

Calling Trump supporters nazi or racist solely because they support Trump is not okay.

That being said, yes it is different. Being racist is a choice. Being gay is not. I feel it's okay to judge people based on choices, not on inherent characteristics.

Yes, Congress passes laws. Did somebody say Trump should? Or did somebody imply that his administration should push for it to get done?

Excellent proposal. Just tell em to man up.

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[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by mike1498

See you really do let the media talk to you. I’d like to believe most the world isn’t the radical right. Just most business aren’t going to allocate half their store to bathrooms. A sports venue isn’t going to increase the size of its already long bathroom lines to change urinals to stalls

I'm not sure if you're not listening or not understanding. It wouldn't take up any more space. It doesn't.

Take an existing multi-person bathroom and extend the stall walls up and down to the floor. How does that take up space?

Urinals are the way of the past. Those are going away regardless.

[mike1498]

Originally Posted by JustRachel

I'm not sure if you're not listening or not understanding. It wouldn't take up any more space. It doesn't.

Take an existing multi-person bathroom and extend the stall walls up and down to the floor. How does that take up space?

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Obviously every bathroom is different. As someone who has had to clean both the male and females bathrooms at target, the females bathroom is bigger. It may be coincidental but I’m fairly confident it’s not. Female’s have more stalls by design which take up more space than urinals. There’s also a reason the makes bathroom usually doesn’t have as long of a line as the females bathroom. I wonder why?

I think offering one single person bathroom isn’t a bad idea but I have to imagine trans will feel targeted by that.

[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by mike1498

Obviously every bathroom is different. As someone who has had to clean both the male and females bathrooms at target, the females bathroom is bigger. It may be coincidental but I’m fairly confident it’s not. The females have more stalls by design which take up more space than urinals. There’s also a reason the makes bathroom usually doesn’t have as long of a line as the females bathroom. I wonder why?



I think offering one single person bathroom isn’t a bad idea but I have to imagine trans will feel targeted by that.

Are you old enough to remember trough urinals?

Disgusting.

We evolved. We will continue to do so.

The LGBTQ statement that I feel differently than Trump has been backed up. Yes, he is anti-trans, simply by being pro-not trans.

If you want to disagree about whether I am pro or Trump is anti, I think we've gone full circle and there's nothing left to discuss without repeating ourselves.

I feel like somehow you or someone else will accuse me of skirting the issue now. Isn't that the next move of the playbook? Have at it. I'll just say "see above".

It's time to move on to another topic. Shall we?

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[Astros19]

Originally Posted by JustRachel

Reasonable.

But what if that gay couple was treated like that everywhere they went? What if they were subjected to insults or whatever? What if their problem was systemic rather than isolated? What if they began to fear for their safety?

I hear what you're saying. None of that happened in that mcdonald's that night. But I'd like to think that a gay couple can go to a restaurant and hold hands without being insulted or bullied. Today, I think they probably can. Back then, not so much.

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To answer your questions in the first paragraph, then they would know what it's like to be a Trump supporter.

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