Does Card Grading Prop Up The Hobby?

MOONBASE1 · 08-31-2020, 10:49 PM

In other words if grading did not exist would we still see these high prices? I would still collect regardless of grading or not. At present I only have 4 graded cards so grading does not mean much to me. They were graded more for authentication purposes than the assigned grade. Makes it easier to sell as well.

ThoseBackPages · 08-31-2020, 10:58 PM

i am not sure

ovrcollect · 08-31-2020, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MOONBASE1

In other words if grading did not exist would we still see these high prices? I would still collect regardless of grading or not. At present I only have 4 graded cards so grading does not mean much to me. They were graded more for authentication purposes than the assigned grade. Makes it easier to sell as well.

In my opinion, grading added scarcity in an era where there wasn't any. Sure - it can be used for authenticity purposes in older sets, but it's current purpose is to try to set your cards apart from all the others of the same copy. People don't try to count how many base rookie cards of a set exist - but they DO count the 10s.

It eventually translated into the belief that a high grade version of any card needs to carry a massive premium. People are grading 1/1's, which shows the value the slab suddenly carries versus the actual card. It's ridiculous, but there's a whole generation of collectors that now have that belief.

The current explosion in popularity would've happened regardless - the graded cards just add another series of "parallels."

epatmythes · 08-31-2020, 11:09 PM

Social media, and in the case of record setting sales, actual media, is a far, far, far greater influencer on current prices than grading! Grading is just a measuring stick (or a tool) that can be used to help justify price/cost/value/etc.

Grading has also been around a heck of a lot longer than social media!

Vegemight · 08-31-2020, 11:48 PM

There are two issues here - the grading of cards, and the prices being paid for them.

Condition has always been an important aspect of trading in collectibles, and whether it's an old Rolex watch, a Ming Dynasty vase, a Penny Black stamp, or a vintage Ferrari, the better the condition the higher the sale price is likely to be.

Back when most of our sports card purchases were made in a shop, or at a fair/convention (remember those days!) a potential buyer could decide whether the condition of a card was acceptable to them by examining it in person.

With the growth of online purchasing buyers had to trust that sellers would accurately and honestly describe the card they were selling, but unfortunately this was not always the case.

Grading is a subjective, far from perfect process, but many buyers have concluded that it does provide a more reliable guide to overall condition of a card than the crappy photos that accompany many raw card listings.

Now, as to why people are prepared to pay so much for modern graded cards that are not even remotely scarce (base Topps Chrome, for example) I do not know.

In the case of a low numbered modern parallel is grading doing much more than providing protection? Isn't the value more a feature of the low print run, and not the grading?

It's not like high grade vintage cards which attract high prices because they are genuinely scarce.

I think grading is here to stay, but maybe the current crazy market for artificial scarcity will soften, and once again the clectors will rule!

Pink Pussycat · 09-01-2020, 12:03 AM

I would love to see it go away. A minority view I know, but until we have a TPG that's free of corruption and favoritism, I have no use for it.

If a card I that need happens to be already graded, I just break it out.

kkart · 09-01-2020, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vegemight

Now, as to why people are prepared to pay so much for modern graded cards that are not even remotely scarce (base Topps Chrome, for example) I do not know.

THIS.

sickmantz · 09-01-2020, 09:34 AM

Prop up is the wrong phrase.

I agree with what people say about modern cards. Almost everything is already an 8 or better and the distinction between a 9 and a 10 is usually minimal, so its basically splitting hairs. But I think it goes to human nature of segregating things and defining them as "better" or "worse."

Anyway, grading also provides a really valuable service for older cards, especially vintage. The market for vintage would probably be a lot smaller without the trust created by reputable slabs. Vintage cards are much easier to counterfeit and alter and the cards themselves skew towards worse condition on the bell curve, so higher condition cards have a clear distinction and value.

I think trust is the main value-added factor. But people are overvaluing that trust for modern cards.

mfw13 · 09-01-2020, 11:32 AM

Grading has enabled the commoditization of cards....i.e. made it easier for them to be treated like investments.

It has had a huge impact on the hobby by turning every new product release into a potential "investment opportunity", thus helping to drive up wax prices.

That said, other areas of the hobby are largely unaffected by grading.

MoreToppsPlease · 09-01-2020, 11:58 AM

A grade is nothing more than another type of parallel.

/thread

shayscards79 · 09-01-2020, 12:01 PM

Grading adds value to the vintage market

Grading props up the junk wax era

Grading adds value to the modern market

MoreToppsPlease · 09-01-2020, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pink Pussycat

I would love to see it go away. A minority view I know, but until we have a TPG that's free of corruption and favoritism, I have no use for it.

If a card I that need happens to be already graded, I just break it out.

I agree the importance of grading has been grossly over-inflated.

It’s subjective nature makes it easy for groups of colluding investors to prop up their value.

Thor34 · 09-01-2020, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

A grade is nothing more than another type of parallel.

/thread

I like this thought.

ThoseBackPages · 09-01-2020, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

A grade is nothing more than another type of parallel.

/thread

the best type, i agree!

asujbl · 09-01-2020, 12:56 PM

We absolutely would not see the same prices.

A - Grading makes it incredibly easy (as mentioned above) for casual fans to "invest" and flip cards. You can dislike it all you want as a collector, I've been collecting for 30 years, but it makes it so much simpler for the gamblers of the world to get involved. I can tell my buddy (who is huge into gambling and fantasy sports) about slabs and he will buy some to flip some. He doesn't want to deal with raw cards. That's just a hassle.

B - The registry is still king for the johnson measuring contests.

Would raw cards still be going up over the last 9 months? Absolutely... many still are.

But Kobe Topps isn't going to sell for $5,000 raw if grading didn't exist.

Triple B · 09-01-2020, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shayscards79

Grading adds value to the vintage market

Grading props up the junk wax era

Grading adds value to the modern market

This.

Without grading, values are down across the board (with the junk era facing the worst of it). People may hate it but grading is responsible for the way things are right now, only amplified by breakers.

Grading may not prop up the hobby, but it definitely did give it a major boost.

ThoseBackPages · 09-01-2020, 01:07 PM

Grading has helped save the hobby for sure

theplane · 09-01-2020, 01:42 PM

Just found this: https://twitter.com/Cardhops

This makes me very scared for the immediate future of the hobby. It's a total pump and dump racket that they (and others) have going on. As you can see from their tweets, both they and their members have figured out that grading means they can get more money from their cards. It's this part of grading that worries me.

08-31-2020, 10:49 PM	#1
MOONBASE1 Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: East Coast Posts: 1,125	Does Card Grading Prop Up The Hobby? In other words if grading did not exist would we still see these high prices? I would still collect regardless of grading or not. At present I only have 4 graded cards so grading does not mean much to me. They were graded more for authentication purposes than the assigned grade. Makes it easier to sell as well.

08-31-2020, 10:58 PM	#2
ThoseBackPages Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Long Island Posts: 90,899 ThoseBackPages	i am not sure __________________ Pumpers Paradise #YouCryIBuy Four things that we cannot change each others minds about: Politics, Religion, Third Party Grading, and 2021 Bowman's Best Rookie Cards

09-01-2020, 09:34 AM	#8
sickmantz Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: CA Posts: 2,471 vashthe84	Prop up is the wrong phrase. I agree with what people say about modern cards. Almost everything is already an 8 or better and the distinction between a 9 and a 10 is usually minimal, so its basically splitting hairs. But I think it goes to human nature of segregating things and defining them as "better" or "worse." Anyway, grading also provides a really valuable service for older cards, especially vintage. The market for vintage would probably be a lot smaller without the trust created by reputable slabs. Vintage cards are much easier to counterfeit and alter and the cards themselves skew towards worse condition on the bell curve, so higher condition cards have a clear distinction and value. I think trust is the main value-added factor. But people are overvaluing that trust for modern cards. __________________ In a system built on racism, status quo sustains it.

09-01-2020, 11:58 AM	#10
MoreToppsPlease Member Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 8,676	A grade is nothing more than another type of parallel. /thread __________________ IRS Tax Tip 2022-57 A hobby is any activity that a person pursues because they enjoy it and with no intention of making a profit. People operate a business with the intention of making a profit.

09-01-2020, 12:01 PM	#11
shayscards79 Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: San Diego Posts: 3,876 shayscards79	Grading adds value to the vintage market Grading props up the junk wax era Grading adds value to the modern market __________________ Cubs and Colts fan!!! Collecting all vintage stars... especially Ernie Banks Collecting any and all Indianapolis Colts cards

08-31-2020, 11:09 PM	#4
epatmythes Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Da U.P. Eh! Posts: 2,503 epatmythes	Social media, and in the case of record setting sales, actual media, is a far, far, far greater influencer on current prices than grading! Grading is just a measuring stick (or a tool) that can be used to help justify price/cost/value/etc. Grading has also been around a heck of a lot longer than social media!

08-31-2020, 11:48 PM	#5
Vegemight Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 161	There are two issues here - the grading of cards, and the prices being paid for them. Condition has always been an important aspect of trading in collectibles, and whether it's an old Rolex watch, a Ming Dynasty vase, a Penny Black stamp, or a vintage Ferrari, the better the condition the higher the sale price is likely to be. Back when most of our sports card purchases were made in a shop, or at a fair/convention (remember those days!) a potential buyer could decide whether the condition of a card was acceptable to them by examining it in person. With the growth of online purchasing buyers had to trust that sellers would accurately and honestly describe the card they were selling, but unfortunately this was not always the case. Grading is a subjective, far from perfect process, but many buyers have concluded that it does provide a more reliable guide to overall condition of a card than the crappy photos that accompany many raw card listings. Now, as to why people are prepared to pay so much for modern graded cards that are not even remotely scarce (base Topps Chrome, for example) I do not know. In the case of a low numbered modern parallel is grading doing much more than providing protection? Isn't the value more a feature of the low print run, and not the grading? It's not like high grade vintage cards which attract high prices because they are genuinely scarce. I think grading is here to stay, but maybe the current crazy market for artificial scarcity will soften, and once again the clectors will rule!

09-01-2020, 12:03 AM	#6
Pink Pussycat Member Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 595	I would love to see it go away. A minority view I know, but until we have a TPG that's free of corruption and favoritism, I have no use for it. If a card I that need happens to be already graded, I just break it out.

09-01-2020, 11:32 AM	#9
mfw13 Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 17,913	Grading has enabled the commoditization of cards....i.e. made it easier for them to be treated like investments. It has had a huge impact on the hobby by turning every new product release into a potential "investment opportunity", thus helping to drive up wax prices. That said, other areas of the hobby are largely unaffected by grading.

09-01-2020, 12:56 PM	#15
asujbl Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 64,299 ohiosundevils	We absolutely would not see the same prices. A - Grading makes it incredibly easy (as mentioned above) for casual fans to "invest" and flip cards. You can dislike it all you want as a collector, I've been collecting for 30 years, but it makes it so much simpler for the gamblers of the world to get involved. I can tell my buddy (who is huge into gambling and fantasy sports) about slabs and he will buy some to flip some. He doesn't want to deal with raw cards. That's just a hassle. B - The registry is still king for the johnson measuring contests. Would raw cards still be going up over the last 9 months? Absolutely... many still are. But Kobe Topps isn't going to sell for $5,000 raw if grading didn't exist. __________________ https://ohiosundevils.smugmug.com/ Browns/Cavs/Tribe/Buckeyes/Jackets/Devils TheFrenzy - “Blowout ain't a place for normies”

09-01-2020, 01:07 PM	#17
ThoseBackPages Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Long Island Posts: 90,899 ThoseBackPages	Grading has helped save the hobby for sure __________________ Pumpers Paradise #YouCryIBuy Four things that we cannot change each others minds about: Politics, Religion, Third Party Grading, and 2021 Bowman's Best Rookie Cards

09-01-2020, 01:42 PM	#18
theplane Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 794	Just found this: https://twitter.com/Cardhops This makes me very scared for the immediate future of the hobby. It's a total pump and dump racket that they (and others) have going on. As you can see from their tweets, both they and their members have figured out that grading means they can get more money from their cards. It's this part of grading that worries me.