Topps Project 2020 is the worst product since 1991 Fleer

[FT35]

Was out yesterday and feel it’s important to comment here on something.

But wanted to respectfully draw attention to a couple of things regarding the bitterness from those who have “lost so much money.” Big stock losses, now cards, big losses continue—this is not investing...it’s more a sign of gambling. Rolling the dice on the next big thing to hopefully get rich quick. People falling for the “easy money schemes.”

This product has derailed for so many because for them, this is all they saw it for. One guy came in, went strong early on and ended up with a gold mine. Then many thought that would happen to them. The illusion/delusion of everyone finally hitting it big from a money standpoint is what killed the momentum of this project for THEM. This was THE “can’t lose” moment everyone was waiting for.

Well...when the numbers flipped and it turned out not to be the case (yet), people would rather trash the product than trash their long record of failed thinking. Then we get to see an active stream of bitterness in a thread about a PRODUCT as those make every attempt to ensure that their misery has company.

Believe it or not, there are people here who enjoy P2020 and enjoy collecting/discussing it. If you’re a gambler and rolled the dice on this and failed, that’s on you. Not on the product, not on those who like it. You’re obviously free to post anywhere—which is great—but I would honestly recommend that you’re next call be to a gambler support number. That’s not an insult, but an observation. Do it now while the sting you feel is still “teachable” and before your next big gamble/loss. Then come back and talk cards with us! I can assure you whenever that is, we’ll still be talking about this set!

Again, trying to help. My intent is pure—if this applies to you, it’s not shameful to get some help. It’s probably better than trashing others’ passions and you’ll be better off for it. Just do it.

[TheChukler]

Hear, hear!

[JRX]

I got burnt "on paper" on some cards, but I still love the set and plan to hang up at least one artist set (gotta see how crazy ermsy cards get lol)

[tysonbeck]

Originally Posted by FT35

Was out yesterday and feel it’s important to comment here on something.

But wanted to respectfully draw attention to a couple of things regarding the bitterness from those who have “lost so much money.” Big stock losses, now cards, big losses continue—this is not investing...it’s more a sign of gambling. Rolling the dice on the next big thing to hopefully get rich quick. People falling for the “easy money schemes.”

This product has derailed for so many because for them, this is all they saw it for. One guy came in, went strong early on and ended up with a gold mine. Then many thought that would happen to them. The illusion/delusion of everyone finally hitting it big from a money standpoint is what killed the momentum of this project for THEM. This was THE “can’t lose” moment everyone was waiting for.

Well...when the numbers flipped and it turned out not to be the case (yet), people would rather trash the product than trash their long record of failed thinking. Then we get to see an active stream of bitterness in a thread about a PRODUCT as those make every attempt to ensure that their misery has company.

Believe it or not, there are people here who enjoy P2020 and enjoy collecting/discussing it. If you’re a gambler and rolled the dice on this and failed, that’s on you. Not on the product, not on those who like it. You’re obviously free to post anywhere—which is great—but I would honestly recommend that you’re next call be to a gambler support number. That’s not an insult, but an observation. Do it now while the sting you feel is still “teachable” and before your next big gamble/loss. Then come back and talk cards with us! I can assure you whenever that is, we’ll still be talking about this set!

Again, trying to help. My intent is pure—if this applies to you, it’s not shameful to get some help. It’s probably better than trashing others’ passions and you’ll be better off for it. Just do it.

Best post of the 1114 pages

[mwheeler27]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

Pack pulled cards will always be greater than print on demand.

Yes, yes, I've heard that for a while now. I also heard about Sapphire never being worth much because it was an online offering only. I suppose the 4 boxes of 2018 sapphire I paid $800 total for and traded them for a sealed case of 2019 National Treasures basketball+ was just luck. Or maybe this year's NT basketball isn't worth much.

On Demand cards will get their due, eventually. It might take a long time, or P2020 might change peoples' minds.

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

Those early cards will always have value over MSRP because people weren’t on the set at the time.

Hmm...

Which is it?...On Demand cards won't ever be worth much, or they will IF people didn't know about them in time?

You see, there are all kinds of people that have yet to hear anything about P2020. You might think that 80% of all people that might "eventually" want a set, (or singles), already know about the set, but as we will all agree, more and more people are coming into this hobby constantly, (probably on a daily basis). Time will tell how poorly or how well it ends up doing. You might be right that it sucks for ever. And you might be wrong. As a fan and collector of the set, I will cherish these cards for a very, very long time.

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

I agree that the concept of the set is a lot cooler than previous print on demand sets, but the way to acquire the set is the same. The market dynamics are the same. There’s a reason why all the print on demand sets can be snagged in set form below MSRP even when the early cards are valued above MSRP. The 80% brings down the 20% when you go to sell together.

"All" is a pretty big word. Of course I disagree with you and can give examples, but you probably didn't really mean "all".

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

Wheeler, are you still buying the new releases in bulk like you did the early ones?

Yes, of course.

[okumeister]

Originally Posted by mwheeler27

Dang...I saw your first picture and was like, “Man that looks good! I want one.”

It still looks good, and for what it’s worth, you found a way to increase the value of a one-touch. You now have a good, unique story to go along with the card. I wouldn’t be too disappointed.

Originally Posted by MCyganik

As long as the autograph isn’t smudged it’s kind of a fun concept. You could now essentially put any Gooden card in the holder and it’s automatically “autographed”. Swap it out every now and then and you’ve got a new display haha

Originally Posted by 55Lincecum

Did you ask for the “gold” pen to be used?

Thank you guys!
I was so upset when I first opened the package, but now I fell pretty okay.
The cost of autograph was just $20, so that kind of eases my pain a bit too.

And yes, I asked for the card to be signed in gold ink.

[okumeister]

Looks like King Saladeen’s Nolan Ryan or Doc Gooden is coming out tomorrow.

Edit : probably Gooden, the letters in background looks like “DEN”

[Ctjwa]

Originally Posted by tysonbeck

Best post of the 1114 pages

I agree. And for people that are fans of P2020 not flippers, I encourage to go back to the Topps Now thread.

[JRX]

Originally Posted by okumeister

Looks like King Saladeen’s Nolan Ryan or Doc Gooden is coming out tomorrow.

Edit : probably Gooden, the letters in background looks like “DEN”

OMG that is awesome

[rcearley]

Originally Posted by jfan2024

Today's 10k print runs are an absolute death toll for this set imo. We absolutely should be praying for sky high print runs as collectors or investors because that is the main thing that will hold the set up. INTEREST IN THE SET.

10k print runs to me also mean the hobby AT LARGE DOES NOT CARE about this set. There are 17.5k Acuna US250 in the PSA registry, 14k Soto US300, and 15.5k Luka prizm. Look at those values. These are base cards only, not counting any of the million parallels topps/panini are shipping out, only PSA meaning it doesn't account for raw or other grading companies, and ignores the fact that there are about 50 different products each year that have these guys with RC logos on them nowadays. I find it crazy people are claiming that a 10k print run on a P2020 card is too large and the hobby can't support it. Yet this ship is tanking as fast as any set I can remember. If you truly believe 10k print is too large and P2020 is appropriately priced currently, what does that say about the hobby at large and how painful the fall will be when the bubble bursts entirely? I'm actually in the camp that 10k should be viewed as a minuscule print run to the hobby

Ninja is right we've hit despair and if cards=stocks now is the time to be buying and buying big to dollar cost average but I just see no reason for a big jump up. We need something to happen to pump life back into the P2020 market. We need Gary V QE

Every time I get mail with these cards it just pisses me off. Love hate. Can't think of any set of cards released the last few years I'd take over these cards as a collector, but receiving packages with these cards just puts me in a bad mood for days on end given the dollar loss. Sorry for rant, received Grotesk Jeter today in the mail and in an awful mood all day

Yeah yeah hobby purists like thosebackpages (his youtube is great if you don't follow him btw) can flame me for thinking of set value and talk about how great the set is when you buy MSRP from topps I get it. But I'm sorry while I also miss the days on breaking a 16-box case of revolution or 24-box optic basketball retail case for like $800, no way do I want to go back to days of this hobby being a pure cost

Originally Posted by Ferg1945

Hate to be the bearer of bad news.... the "hobby" NEVER really cared about this set. It was HYPED beyond belief on this board and that alone can move the needle on prices. Add in the "cook" groups and prices go up even more. Once that happened it gain even more popularity on this board and the needle moved even more. The artists joining and talking to the group just added fuel to the fire.

If you bought in at the peak... I'm sorry.

2 things changed this set for me. First being mwheelers pic of the mountain he had acquired. At first I thought the "hobby" cared about this set only to find out it was just a small group hoarding everything. That pic made me take a step back... told me the prices we were seeing were not sustainable. And the second was the obvious one everyone knows...Shore Griffey PR. That made everyone take a step back and soon prices just crashed.

People hate the Living Set comparison...but this set basically mimicked Living. First week had Judge and it sold well... Panik and Castellanos did ok. 2nd week Hoskins did OK...Happ and Markakis considerably less. Third week the prices of the first 2 weeks started to go up and Ohtani being in week 3 helped Bradley Jr and Martin have decent PRs... now week 1 and 2 started to go up more and people started to see the money possible and others jumped in seeing dollar signs. Fast forward to week 7... Shore Griffey... i mean Acuna was released and all hell broke loose. It had been a good 3-4 weeks for the first 2 weeks worth of cards to gain even more popularity as the PRs started to increase making Panik, Castellanos, Happ and Markakis THE cards to chase.... Week 6... Paul DeJong sold nearly 5,000.... DeJong!! making Markakis 2,678 even MORE popular. Week 7 Acuna... 46,809!! The first 3 weeks outsold the Acuna by 13,777... that was 9 cards that included Judge 13,256 and Ohtani 20,966. After Acuna... the PRs were 6-7000 per card. After Acuna the rest of the cards were barely above cost after release.

The difference for Project 2020 is 10 cards released each week compared to 3 for Living... after 3 weeks... 30 vs 9...50 vs 15 after 5 weeks... just meant more lower PR cards before the set took off.

Going forward the cards will likely be just above $20.... collect what you enjoy (full set, artist, player).... the investment others were hoping for is long gone.

Reading posts like this to start the day is buzz kill. If you are in this set to make money then leave. If you are in this set to collect then please participate. I wanted a Blake Jamieson and Tyson Beck signed card of all their print runs but then the flippers got into the product and ruined it for me. I decided to no longer go after them and stick to what I was originally doing from the beginning of collecting Trout and Griffey.

[rcearley]

Originally Posted by FT35

Was out yesterday and feel it’s important to comment here on something.

But wanted to respectfully draw attention to a couple of things regarding the bitterness from those who have “lost so much money.” Big stock losses, now cards, big losses continue—this is not investing...it’s more a sign of gambling. Rolling the dice on the next big thing to hopefully get rich quick. People falling for the “easy money schemes.”

This product has derailed for so many because for them, this is all they saw it for. One guy came in, went strong early on and ended up with a gold mine. Then many thought that would happen to them. The illusion/delusion of everyone finally hitting it big from a money standpoint is what killed the momentum of this project for THEM. This was THE “can’t lose” moment everyone was waiting for.

Well...when the numbers flipped and it turned out not to be the case (yet), people would rather trash the product than trash their long record of failed thinking. Then we get to see an active stream of bitterness in a thread about a PRODUCT as those make every attempt to ensure that their misery has company.

Believe it or not, there are people here who enjoy P2020 and enjoy collecting/discussing it. If you’re a gambler and rolled the dice on this and failed, that’s on you. Not on the product, not on those who like it. You’re obviously free to post anywhere—which is great—but I would honestly recommend that you’re next call be to a gambler support number. That’s not an insult, but an observation. Do it now while the sting you feel is still “teachable” and before your next big gamble/loss. Then come back and talk cards with us! I can assure you whenever that is, we’ll still be talking about this set!

Again, trying to help. My intent is pure—if this applies to you, it’s not shameful to get some help. It’s probably better than trashing others’ passions and you’ll be better off for it. Just do it.

Originally Posted by tysonbeck

Best post of the 1114 pages

This is the way!

[SaveMeTheGum]

Originally Posted by FT35

Was out yesterday and feel it’s important to comment here on something.

But wanted to respectfully draw attention to a couple of things regarding the bitterness from those who have “lost so much money.” Big stock losses, now cards, big losses continue—this is not investing...it’s more a sign of gambling. Rolling the dice on the next big thing to hopefully get rich quick. People falling for the “easy money schemes.”

This product has derailed for so many because for them, this is all they saw it for. One guy came in, went strong early on and ended up with a gold mine. Then many thought that would happen to them. The illusion/delusion of everyone finally hitting it big from a money standpoint is what killed the momentum of this project for THEM. This was THE “can’t lose” moment everyone was waiting for.

Well...when the numbers flipped and it turned out not to be the case (yet), people would rather trash the product than trash their long record of failed thinking. Then we get to see an active stream of bitterness in a thread about a PRODUCT as those make every attempt to ensure that their misery has company.

Believe it or not, there are people here who enjoy P2020 and enjoy collecting/discussing it. If you’re a gambler and rolled the dice on this and failed, that’s on you. Not on the product, not on those who like it. You’re obviously free to post anywhere—which is great—but I would honestly recommend that you’re next call be to a gambler support number. That’s not an insult, but an observation. Do it now while the sting you feel is still “teachable” and before your next big gamble/loss. Then come back and talk cards with us! I can assure you whenever that is, we’ll still be talking about this set!

Again, trying to help. My intent is pure—if this applies to you, it’s not shameful to get some help. It’s probably better than trashing others’ passions and you’ll be better off for it. Just do it.

Spot on. For some reason people still believe that they can get rich doing either a) The same thing everyone else is doing, or b) trying to do exactly the same as what other people did in the past, even though the environment has changed.

When all is said and done, I will have exactly what I set out to have in the beginning -- 1 full Trout run (I might actually have 3 now), and 1 full Ted Williams run. If the prices keep coming down on the early stuff, I may even end up with 1 full set run. I'll also have some fun side items, and a few autographs. Prices crashing doesn't hurt me, it actually helps me fill out a set. Of all the cards I have, only about 15 were purchased in the secondary market, and only a couple of those were during the crazy last week of May.

I've also become familiar with the work of 20 artists I never knew existed, and started following the ones whose work I enjoy. Whether prices go up, down or stay flat I'm good.

[Powell7db]

What is going to be the best looking Trout from the set? Have we already seen it? Is it still to come do you think?

[jfan2024]

Originally Posted by FT35

Was out yesterday and feel it’s important to comment here on something.

But wanted to respectfully draw attention to a couple of things regarding the bitterness from those who have “lost so much money.” Big stock losses, now cards, big losses continue—this is not investing...it’s more a sign of gambling. Rolling the dice on the next big thing to hopefully get rich quick. People falling for the “easy money schemes.”

This product has derailed for so many because for them, this is all they saw it for. One guy came in, went strong early on and ended up with a gold mine. Then many thought that would happen to them. The illusion/delusion of everyone finally hitting it big from a money standpoint is what killed the momentum of this project for THEM. This was THE “can’t lose” moment everyone was waiting for.

Well...when the numbers flipped and it turned out not to be the case (yet), people would rather trash the product than trash their long record of failed thinking. Then we get to see an active stream of bitterness in a thread about a PRODUCT as those make every attempt to ensure that their misery has company.

Believe it or not, there are people here who enjoy P2020 and enjoy collecting/discussing it. If you’re a gambler and rolled the dice on this and failed, that’s on you. Not on the product, not on those who like it. You’re obviously free to post anywhere—which is great—but I would honestly recommend that you’re next call be to a gambler support number. That’s not an insult, but an observation. Do it now while the sting you feel is still “teachable” and before your next big gamble/loss. Then come back and talk cards with us! I can assure you whenever that is, we’ll still be talking about this set!

Again, trying to help. My intent is pure—if this applies to you, it’s not shameful to get some help. It’s probably better than trashing others’ passions and you’ll be better off for it. Just do it.

I understand your sentiment, but the people on blowout flipping or investing are not gamblers. For years, this was truly a hobby and I'm sure many people like myself treated it as such meaning we allocate an affordable spend to it taking a 100% financial loss. I didn't bother really selling or flipping because most cards weren't even worth the $3 cost of shipping to USPS. I remember selling Strasburg at his peak and thinking holy cow something just issued can pay for the $20 box it came out of?

If you've been in this hobby for longer than two years, you should have made significant potentially life changing money the last few years. Paying off student loans entirely and many years off your mortgage money. You know what has enabled that? It's not all collectors, it's flippers and sneaker bois and everything we hate about the hobby. Without them, we'd be back to the days of celebrating selling a Trout update or Giannis rookie for $20 thinking wow what a large sale that was. Nobody enjoys being elbowed by three wife beater beard necks in the card aisle at Target/Walmart, but I don't understand the "hobby purist" sentiment either of wanting to return to the days of 100% spend and guaranteed loss if you want to make sports cards your hobby. People have made life changing money the last few years and it certainly was not through "gambling". The blowout members who flip/invest are not any less collectors and certainly not gamblers

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by mwheeler27

Yes, yes, I've heard that for a while now. I also heard about Sapphire never being worth much because it was an online offering only. I suppose the 4 boxes of 2018 sapphire I paid $800 total for and traded them for a sealed case of 2019 National Treasures basketball+ was just luck. Or maybe this year's NT basketball isn't worth much.

On Demand cards will get their due, eventually. It might take a long time, or P2020 might change peoples' minds.



Hmm...

Which is it?...On Demand cards won't ever be worth much, or they will IF people didn't know about them in time?

You see, there are all kinds of people that have yet to hear anything about P2020. You might think that 80% of all people that might "eventually" want a set, (or singles), already know about the set, but as we will all agree, more and more people are coming into this hobby constantly, (probably on a daily basis). Time will tell how poorly or how well it ends up doing. You might be right that it sucks for ever. And you might be wrong. As a fan and collector of the set, I will cherish these cards for a very, very long time.



"All" is a pretty big word. Of course I disagree with you and can give examples, but you probably didn't really mean "all".



Yes, of course.

Very fair points. I think FT35 summed up the other side of the coin nicely as wel.

[pryantexas]

Originally Posted by rats60

No, they are two of the best. Shore and Fucci are the least appealing.

This what makes art (and hence this set) so great.

Rats60: Oldmanalan and Jk5 are two of the best
Myself: Oldmanalan and JK5 are two of the worst

Rats60: Shore and Fucci are the least appealing
Myself: Shore and Fuccie are the most appealing

And neither of us are wrong

[ObanMontecristo]

Here’s my take- there’s interest in the hobby for this as demonstrated by the 100K Shore Griffey run, but most people don’t have the time or patience to go online and pick up the new cards every day (or they didn’t want to spend insane amounts of money to catch up on the low PR cards and have only random P2020 cards sitting around). So they’ll wait until the end and will look to pick up the 20 player/artist sets when they’re all assembled (and look really cool).

I’m glad that the PRs have come back to earth, 5-10K Print Runs for each seems about right to me.

[SaveMeTheGum]

Originally Posted by Powell7db

What is going to be the best looking Trout from the set? Have we already seen it? Is it still to come do you think?

Best lookng will obviously be subjective. Love the Ermsy so far. Baller's is awesome. Blake's is cool too. Can't wait to see Don C, JK5 and Oldmanalan's. It'll be interesting to see if/how some of the artists change up how they've done past ones.

[SaveMeTheGum]

Originally Posted by ObanMontecristo

Here’s my take- there’s interest in the hobby for this as demonstrated by the 100K Shore Griffey run, but most people don’t have the time or patience to go online and pick up the new cards every day (or they didn’t want to spend insane amounts of money to catch up on the low PR cards and have only random P2020 cards sitting around). So they’ll wait until the end and will look to pick up the 20 player/artist sets when they’re all assembled (and look really cool).

I’m glad that the PRs have come back to earth, 5-10K Print Runs for each seems about right to me.

100k Shore Griffey is a terrible example to use for hobby interest. This was probably 80% flipper/shoeboy/get rich interest. I'd say there are probably about 10k of people "interested" in the set (at this point, could increase). 20k print runs still have people buying 10+ at a time and expecting to be able to re-sell. It doesn't take a lot of time or patience to buy a 2 pack every day or a couple 2 packs a couple times a week.

[ObanMontecristo]

Originally Posted by Powell7db

What is going to be the best looking Trout from the set? Have we already seen it? Is it still to come do you think?

So far I would say I like Baller’s Trout the best, although Ermsy has grown on me more with time. But I think/hope the best one is yet to come.

I will say I didn’t like Fucci’s version of Trout at all- I wish he had used the same 2011 Update photo/pose. I’m collecting all the Clementes too and hope all the artists stick with the same horizontal layout. I just think the set will look much better if all the cards at least share the same basic look.

[pryantexas]

Originally Posted by okumeister

Thank you guys!
I was so upset when I first opened the package, but now I fell pretty okay.
The cost of autograph was just $20, so that kind of eases my pain a bit too.

And yes, I asked for the card to be signed in gold ink.

Honestly, there is an argument to be made for getting a case signed instead of the card. I like it

[Snakeonia]

Originally Posted by Powell7db

What is going to be the best looking Trout from the set? Have we already seen it? Is it still to come do you think?

Have when seen what hasn’t been created yet... this is too deep of a question my man.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[OneBuck]

If you bought anything over Memorial Day weekend chances are you’re taking a loss. Other than those few days I’m not sure how anyone is considering this set a loser. Every one of the 40 or so cards I’ve bought over the past month are worth more than what I paid (except the shore Griffey), which is more than you can say for just about any product. Will that be the case in a year from now, or 5 years down the road? No idea & really don’t care since I’m pretty much just buying what I like for my PC. But just because they are selling for what they did that one weekend & you can’t retire off them after a month I’m not sure how you can consider the set a loser


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ThoseBackPages]

Us (us, us, us, us) and them (them, them, them, them)
And after all we're only ordinary men
Me
And you (you, you, you)
God only knows
It's not what we would choose (choose, choose) to do (to do, to do)
Forward he cried from the rear
And the front rank died
And the general sat
And the lines on the map
Moved from side to side
Black (black, black, black)
And blue (blue, blue)
And who knows which is which and who is who
Up (up, up, up, up)
And down (down, down, down, down)
And in the end it's only round 'n round (round, round, round)
Haven't you heard it's a battle of words
The poster bearer cried
"Listen son", said the man with the gun
There's room for you inside
"I mean, they're not gonna kill ya
So if you give 'em a quick short, sharp, shock
They won't do it again. Dig it?
I mean he get off lightly, 'cause I would've given him a thrashing
I only hit him once! It was only a difference of opinion, but really
I mean good manners don't cost nothing do they, eh?"
Down (down, down, down, down)
And out (out, out, out, out)
It can't be helped that there's a lot of it about
With (with, with, with), without
And who'll deny it's what the fighting's all about?
Out of the way
It's a busy day
I've got things on my mind
For the want of the price
Of tea and a slice
The old man died

[gmoney328]

Originally Posted by Mattsurewood

You guys that think the "sky is falling" because of 10k print runs...TEN THOUSAND...that's a lot..I want to see it go down to 5k or less, that's when I think the cards will show "value" down the road. Just my opinion. Let "investors" catch on to these in a year or so, that's when values will go up (if that's what you are looking the cards to do). 40k-75k print runs just mean these will be in every Topps "Archives Retired" release for the next 10 years (for the players that are alive and signing).

Comparing these to pack pulled RCs of young superstars doesn't equate to me..yes, I am one who collects Acuna/Soto AND this set, but think about the checklist: Bob Gibson/Ted Williams/Koufax/Clemente...I would think VINTAGE guys may like this set more than the Acuna/Soto chasers, but that's just me.

I'm happy the artists are getting paid for the big print runs, but under 10k is A-O-K with me from a long-term collecting/value standpoint.

I’m a vintage guy and I LOVE this set. Think of all the vintage people and PCs. These cards will be long term gets for a lot of people. Especially AFTER the set is no longer going on.