Larry Legend. Better than MJ, Kobe or LeBron?

[markinca]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

Again...I ask anyone....how can you simultaneously marginalize Kobe's accomplishments whilst building up Bird?

I'm not saying Bird above Kobe is wrong or vice versa...I'm just intrigued by some of the reasoning.

'Kobe's defense in his later stages was overrated'. >12x all-defensive selections given out as consolation prizes?

'Bird's defense was vastly underrated and appreciated..it didn't show up on stat sheets or awards.' >'The Man' keeping Larry down? o wait...

'Larry was better at rebounding' Well yeah...he also played an entirely different position. No doubt he was a great and one of the best, but that's like saying MJ isn't better than half the people on the list because he couldn't secure 10 boards a game as a sg. Or that Shaq should be ranked lower than Nash because he couldn't drop 10 dimes a game.



Larry was a beast, and so was Kobe. There is no marginalizing either. Because they're both all time greats and dominated the league for a stretch.

For this, you can look at some numbers.

Bird was in the top 20 in defensive rating 9 seasons. He was in the top 20 in defensive win shares 10 seasons (including 4 times at #1). He was in the top 20 in defensive box plus minus for 9 seasons. His career was only 13 seasons.

Kobe was in the top 20 in defensive rating once. He was in the top 20 in defensive win shares 5 times. He was never in the top 20 in defensive box plus minus. His career was 20 seasons.

Now, from this I'm not going to automatically conclude that Bird was hands down the better defender. But as far as I know, Defensive Rating, Defensive Win Shares, and Defensive Box Plus/Minus are all calculated differently. Yet they ALL agree that Bird was an excellent defender.

And yes, I understand that Kobe was voted to more all-defense teams.

But I think it would be more than a fair statement to say that at _worst_, Bird was Kobe's equal defensively. To say that Kobe was miles ahead of Bird defensively is just not really a defensible position.

Add to that that Bird was a far better well-rounded offensive player than Kobe, and I don't think it's hard for many to come to the conclusion that Bird was better than Kobe.

For me personally, it's close - I'd have Bird at #7 all time and Kobe at #11, so it's not like we're far apart. But yes, I do feel Bird was a better player.

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by markinca

For this, you can look at some numbers.

Bird was in the top 20 in defensive rating 9 seasons. He was in the top 20 in defensive win shares 10 seasons (including 4 times at #1). He was in the top 20 in defensive box plus minus for 9 seasons. His career was only 13 seasons.

Kobe was in the top 20 in defensive rating once. He was in the top 20 in defensive win shares 5 times. He was never in the top 20 in defensive box plus minus. His career was 20 seasons.

Now, from this I'm not going to automatically conclude that Bird was hands down the better defender. But as far as I know, Defensive Rating, Defensive Win Shares, and Defensive Box Plus/Minus are all calculated differently. Yet they ALL agree that Bird was an excellent defender.

And yes, I understand that Kobe was voted to more all-defense teams.

But I think it would be more than a fair statement to say that at _worst_, Bird was Kobe's equal defensively. To say that Kobe was miles ahead of Bird defensively is just not really a defensible position.

Add to that that Bird was a far better well-rounded offensive player than Kobe, and I don't think it's hard for many to come to the conclusion that Bird was better than Kobe.

For me personally, it's close - I'd have Bird at #7 all time and Kobe at #11, so it's not like we're far apart. But yes, I do feel Bird was a better player.

I can certainly get with this line of reasoning. Well put.

[Willikn]

Need some help with defensive rating. I recall Bruce Bowen and Tony Allen having very average ratings. That'll happen I'd guess when you draw the other team's best every night, right? Conversely, if you are guarding Bruce Bowen, you will fair well no matter how bad you are, yes?

[yaoming]

Originally Posted by markinca

everyone's prime/career was short back then. It's easy to forget nowadays with charter flights and first-class lodging, trainers, and diets, but it wasn't like that back then. Players flew commercial. Players smoked and drank during halftimes. No one was playing 15+ years back then.

Magic? 13 year career.

Bird? 13 years.

Wilt? 14 years.

Russell? 13 years.

West? 14 years.

and so on and so on and so on. The only great player who played a long time back then (that's off the top of my head) is Kareem.

Karl malone and John stockton did
Robert parish etc


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[markinca]

Originally Posted by yaoming

Karl malone and John stockton did
Robert parish etc


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think it was around the 90s when people really started to turn their attention towards longevity and taking care of their bodies. Malone/Stockton had their primes during the 90s and that's why I didn't count them (or Jordan) in my list.

Robert Parish is a good example though - though he's not gonna appear on too many people's greatest players list.

[Whodey14]

Originally Posted by markinca

I think it was around the 90s when people really started to turn their attention towards longevity and taking care of their bodies. Malone/Stockton had their primes during the 90s and that's why I didn't count them (or Jordan) in my list.



Robert Parish is a good example though - though he's not gonna appear on too many people's greatest players list.

20,000 points on under 15 ppg has to put you in the goat discussion

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[jrb]

Most players played 3-4 years of college pre-1995. That makes more recent NBA careers 3-4 years longer on top of the advances in training/nutrition that slow age-related decline.

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by jrb

Most players played 3-4 years of college pre-1995. That makes more recent NBA careers 3-4 years longer on top of the advances in training/nutrition that slow age-related decline.

Was going to add this. These days 1 year is the norm if you're great.

[markinca]

Yea, the college years is a good point, but we can just look at the ages of players' last seasons:

Magic: 31 (because of HIV, then had one more season at 36)

Bird: 35

Wilt: 36

Russell: 34

West: 35

Mikan: 31

Cousy: 34 (he played 7 games at 5mpg as a 41 year old, but let's not count that)

Oscar: 35

Baylor: 35 (he played 11 total relatively unproductive games after his 35 season)

Then you look at more modern-type players:

Kobe: 37

Duncan: 39

KG: 39

Shaq: 38

Malone: 40

Dirk: 40

Wade: 37

Kidd: 39

I could go on and on but you get the point. Players play into their late 30's regularly these days - in the past it was basically mid 30's, tops. Even if players stayed in school the same amount now as they did back then, advances in nutrition and overall health are probably adding at least 3-5 productive years to the typical superstar.

You might be thinking 'but wait, these days players don't play as many minutes.' - well even if you look at the top minutes played leaders of all time (nba/aba combined), only 7 of the top 20 players retired before the turn of the century.

[isles4life]

Didn't Larry play games left handed just for fun, and still dominate?

[RogerGodahell]

Originally Posted by isles4life

Didn't Larry play games left handed just for fun, and still dominate?

Yeah he did. I believe it was against Portland. He was bored because they were so dominant at the time he said he was going to play an entire game left handed. I think he dropped 47 points that night. He was the biggest trash talker in the league. He would tell the guy who was guarding him where he was going to score on him the next time down the court and he did. Then he'd go over to the other team's bench and tell the coach to put someone else in because he's killing this guy and he can't guard him. lol


Here is the left handed game.

[JewVol]

Originally Posted by kevbojones

We always compare Jordan, Kobe and Lebron.

Am I the only one who thinks Larry Bird should be in the mix for GOAT?

Bird at his best was one of if not the best. Issue is he was not at his best for nearly as long as the others.

[JewVol]

Originally Posted by drobfan8

I'd like to see how Larry Bird would go in the modern era, but if he was born the same year as Kobe.

It would be incredible to watch.

He would be better now due to the three pointer.

[pcptrade]

If Bird and Magic are ranked in the top 10, why are their exquisite autos selling for less compared to Jordan, Lebron and Kobe? Are they under-priced compared to Kobe or is it because the people who grew up watching Bird and Magic are not into sports cards?

[Whodey14]

Originally Posted by pcptrade

If Bird and Magic are ranked in the top 10, why are their exquisite autos selling for less compared to Jordan, Lebron and Kobe? Are they under-priced compared to Kobe or is it because the people who grew up watching Bird and Magic are not into sports cards?

Jason Williams also outsells Bird, Magic and other stars before the 90s. Is he better than Bird? On court ability and card prices have minimal correlation. It's a popularity contest.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[tpeichel34]

Originally Posted by JewVol

He would be better now due to the three pointer.

It’s interesting, maybe Bird doesn’t develop the shooting repertoire that made him the greatest shooter in the history of the sport if he had spent time perfecting three pointers.

Because of the three pointer, I don’t think we’ll ever see a better shooter than Bird.

[markinca]

Originally Posted by Whodey14

Jason Williams also outsells Bird, Magic and other stars before the 90s. Is he better than Bird? On court ability and card prices have minimal correlation. It's a popularity contest.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Yup, this. Exciting players like Jason Williams, or Kobe, Jordan, Iverson, Vince Carter, etc etc will always have huge fanbases and popular cards.

Great players who were 'boring' like Kareem, Stockton, etc usually don't. Kareem is generally regarded by pretty much everyone as a top-5 all-time player at worst, and you can get an auto card of his for around $50 all day long.

[rhigh2390]

Originally Posted by markinca

Yea, the college years is a good point, but we can just look at the ages of players' last seasons:

Magic: 31 (because of HIV, then had one more season at 36)

Bird: 35

Wilt: 36

Russell: 34

West: 35

Mikan: 31

Cousy: 34 (he played 7 games at 5mpg as a 41 year old, but let's not count that)

Oscar: 35

Baylor: 35 (he played 11 total relatively unproductive games after his 35 season)

Then you look at more modern-type players:

Kobe: 37

Duncan: 39

KG: 39

Shaq: 38

Malone: 40

Dirk: 40

Wade: 37

Kidd: 39

I could go on and on but you get the point. Players play into their late 30's regularly these days - in the past it was basically mid 30's, tops. Even if players stayed in school the same amount now as they did back then, advances in nutrition and overall health are probably adding at least 3-5 productive years to the typical superstar.

You might be thinking 'but wait, these days players don't play as many minutes.' - well even if you look at the top minutes played leaders of all time (nba/aba combined), only 7 of the top 20 players retired before the turn of the century.

Another big factor is how the game was played. Players can obviously last longer now since they aren't allowed to be touched. Game is much easier on the body than ever before.

[Willikn]

Originally Posted by pcptrade

If Bird and Magic are ranked in the top 10, why are their exquisite autos selling for less compared to Jordan, Lebron and Kobe? Are they under-priced compared to Kobe or is it because the people who grew up watching Bird and Magic are not into sports cards?

A PSA 9 copy of their collective RC sells at $10k. I would go with under-priced.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[RogerGodahell]

Originally Posted by rhigh2390

Another big factor is how the game was played. Players can obviously last longer now since they aren't allowed to be touched. Game is much easier on the body than ever before.

This is true too. Back then people used to grab Bird's jersey to try and keep him from moving around and getting to his spots. They couldn't stop him so the only way to try and slow him down was to play dirty. The league was a lot more physical overall than it is today. The NBA was a lot more like the NFL where everyone hates the other team. Players today grow up together since they were teenagers playing AAU. They're all buddies. They don't hate each other like in the football world.