Kobe fans - why do you think he's one of the greatest?

[Pierce09]

Originally Posted by Kobefan

I would take both Kobe and TD and remove Bill Russell and Wilt. It's only my personal opinion, but the 60s and 70s basketball were weak. Players were underpaid and many had multiple jobs. Aside from the superstars, most of the players in that era are only as good as the G-League players. Also, possessions per game were at all-time high.

On your side with this one.

[markinca]

Originally Posted by Kobefan

I would take both Kobe and TD and remove Bill Russell and Wilt. It's only my personal opinion, but the 60s and 70s basketball were weak. Players were underpaid and many had multiple jobs. Aside from the superstars, most of the players in that era are only as good as the G-League players. Also, possessions per game were at all-time high.

You can't do that though. The 12th man on pretty much any roster these days would dominate the NBA if he were sent back to the 50s. You can only measure players by how they played against their peers.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by markinca

You can't do that though. The 12th man on pretty much any roster these days would dominate the NBA if he were sent back to the 50s. You can only measure players by how they played against their peers.

Right, Lebron has been over-rated because his peers have been inferior compared to Kobe's peers.

[whoaitsg33]

Originally Posted by markinca

Beg? No. But if you think they even think about trading Shaq without asking Kobe what he thought about it, you're out of your mind.

They didn’t want to pay Shaq what he deserved. When he was negotiating his new contract they said they didn’t need to pay him top dollar because Kobe could carry the team without him.


Not sure why this is still a debate, it's known for a decade that Buss did not want to grant O'Neal $25 million a year with declining health/knees, Ultimately, Shaq's tactic against Dr. Buss (Pay me!!! rant on Live TV) was the nail in the coffin.


If Kobe was 33 and Shaq was 24 at that time, Buss would still sign the younger player. This was all about the long term financial gain of the franchise, not this TMZ he said, she said scenario most people have built in their imagination.

[markinca]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

Right, Lebron has been over-rated because his peers have been inferior compared to Kobe's peers.

what are you even talking about?

[Brye86]

So to me Kobe is one of the greatest because, well, he has 5 championships and the closest thing to Jordan that I've ever seen. I can't really begin to rank players in order other than I rank MJ first and whatever player I'd put second I'm not sure but Kobe is ahead of Lebron in my mind.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by markinca

what are you even talking about?

That's how Lebron homers always respond. "You can only measure players by how they played against their peers" - your quote.

Look at the draft classes four years (1999-2002) prior to lebron's draft and three years (2004-2006) afterwards - his peers.

Let me know what superstars, contemporaries, Lebron had to compete and play against and compare them to the superstars Kobe had to play against (players drafted from 1992-1995, and 1998-2000), then you will see what I mean.

Try it. Name all the top players that were drafted as Lebron's contemporaries and compare them to Kobe's.

The best picks during Lebron's contemporary years - steve francis, Kenyon Martin, Pau Gasol, Yao Ming, then dwight howard, Chris Paul and Rudy Gay.

The best picks during Kobe's contemporary years - Shaquille o'neal, chris webber, Grant Hill, Kevin Garnett, then Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki, and steve francis.

Who played against better peers?

Kobe by a landslide.

Kobe is an all time great while playing against tougher competition.

Lebron can't even win championships despite his cupcake competition.

If you think Lebron is an all time great, Kobe must be as well because he is better than Lebron.

[Kobefan]

Originally Posted by markinca

You can't do that though. The 12th man on pretty much any roster these days would dominate the NBA if he were sent back to the 50s. You can only measure players by how they played against their peers.

That's my barometer for measuring players, so I'm sticking to it.

[markinca]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

That's how Lebron homers always respond. "You can only measure players by how they played against their peers" - your quote.

Look at the draft classes four years (1999-2002) prior to lebron's draft and three years (2004-2006) afterwards - his peers.

Let me know what superstars, contemporaries, Lebron had to compete and play against and compare them to the superstars Kobe had to play against (players drafted from 1992-1995, and 1998-2000), then you will see what I mean.

Try it. Name all the top players that were drafted as Lebron's contemporaries and compare them to Kobe's.

The best picks during Lebron's contemporary years - steve francis, Kenyon Martin, Kwame Brown, Yao Ming, then dwight howard, Chris Paul and Rudy Gay.

The top picks during Kobe's contemporary years - Shaquille o'neal, chris webber, Grant Hill, Kevin Garnett, then Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki, and steve francis.

Who played against better peers?

Kobe by a landslide.

I'm not sure why you're looking at draft picks. That's a strange way to gauge the quality of the nba.

It'd be better to look at the players during the years where Lebron was at his peak (somewhere around 2007 - 2013), and if you do, you'd see that those years were just about as rich in talent as any other era in nba history.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by markinca

I'm not sure why you're looking at draft picks. That's a strange way to gauge the quality of the nba.

It'd be better to look at the players during the years where Lebron was at his peak (somewhere around 2007 - 2013), and if you do, you'd see that those years were just about as rich in talent as any other era in nba history.

But you are comparing peak year Lebron playing against rookie Durant, rookie Steph Curry, and aging Duncan and aging Nowitzki.

If you can compare Lebron to players that are of relative same career period as him, he played, along with others near his level of experience, against cream puffs.

Just because you won against Fat Jordan his final year on the Wizards doesn't mean you were better than Jordan, for example.

You need to compare Lebron again other players that were drafted around the same time as him and see how good his peers were to establish a better historical sense. The best player in that seven year contemporary draft period that I described for Lebron, was, in fact, the only guy who could help him win an nba championship as a teammate - Dwayne Wade. A guy from the same draft that won before Lebron ever did, ironically.

The nba was bereft of any talent in that seven year period when Lebron was drafted, a factor that contributed to his complacency.

[Noles939913]

Originally Posted by 8collector34

Because Kobe won 2 championships with players who were not really NBA material. The team was always dead last when Kobe got injured. Muhammad Ali was not the pound for pound best fighter, but he is regarded the greatest as he had to overcome many obstacles like racism and Vietnam, and prevailed. Kobe overcame many obstacles as well, and would have never joined a stacked team to win championships. He was a fighter, thus he is the greatest basketball player of all time, as far as his career. Shaq is the best when it comes to who was the greatest when they were on top of their game.

Ali was also a prick and a pervert, but notice how you don’t hear anything about that? But sure everyone wanted to hold him down and he had to fight the “man” his entire life. You’re basically lapping up the narrative you’re supposed to believe, not only that you’re spreading it to others lol.

Also most boxing historians agree that Ray Robinson is the pound for pound greatest.

[markinca]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

But you are comparing peak year Lebron playing against rookie Durant, rookie Steph Curry, and aging Duncan and aging Nowitzki.

If you can compare Lebron to players that are of relative same career period as him, he played, along with others near his level of experience, against cream puffs.

Durant's rookie year was 07-08. By 2013 he'd already led the league in scoring 3 years straight. During 07-13 he was as in his prime as anyone could be.

Nowitzki was the centerpiece of an NBA title-winning team in 2011.

Duncan was just _barely_ out of his peak by the times the 2000's were coming to an end.

And not to mention 07-13 saw the peaks of Kobe, Derrick Rose, Dwight Howard, and I'm sure I'm forgetting a few more big names. Lebron's opponent quality was about as high as you could get.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by markinca

Durant's rookie year was 07-08. By 2013 he'd already led the league in scoring 3 years straight. He was as in his prime as anyone could be.

Nowitzki was the centerpiece of an NBA title-winning team in 2011.

Duncan was just _barely_ out of his peak by the times the 2000's were coming to an end.

And not to mention 07-13 saw the peaks of Kobe, Derrick Rose, Dwight Howard, and I'm sure I'm forgetting a few more big names. Lebron's opponent quality was about as high as you could get.

And Kobe had to play against peak Jordan, Barkley, Duncan, Nowitzki, Lebron, Malone, Durant, Real Dream Teamers, etc. etc.

Just Kobe's draft class included Iverson, Ray Allen, etc, etc.

Lebron's rivals were Wade, Carmelo Anthony and Darko......He couldn't even win an nba championship until he joined wade and bosh.

[Noles939913]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

And Kobe had to play against peak Jordan, Barkley, Duncan, Nowitzki, Lebron, Malone, Durant, Real Dream Teamers, etc. etc.

Just Kobe's draft class included Iverson, Ray Allen, etc, etc.

Lebron's rivals were Wade, Carmelo Anthony and Darko......He couldn't even win an nba championship until he joined wade and bosh.

Wait what Kobe had to play against peak Barkley lol.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by Noles939913

Wait what Kobe had to play against peak Barkley lol.

Ok, chunky Chuck, but you get my point.

[Noles939913]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

Ok, chunky Chuck, but you get my point.

No I really don’t considering you’re planting falsehoods into your point to prove it.

[markinca]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

And Kobe had to play against peak Jordan, Barkley, Duncan, Nowitzki, Lebron, Malone, Durant, Real Dream Teamers, etc. etc.

Just Kobe's draft class included Iverson, Ray Allen, etc, etc.

Lebron's rivals were Wade, Carmelo Anthony and Darko......He couldn't even win an nba championship until he joined wade and bosh.

I'm really puzzled as to why you think Kobe and Lebron were playing in different times.

Kobe's prime, depending on how you define it, is probably somewhere from the early 2000s to the early 2010s. That prime overlaps Lebron's prime. They're basically contemporaries.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by markinca

I'm really puzzled as to why you think Kobe and Lebron were playing in different times.

Kobe's prime, depending on how you define it, is probably somewhere from the early 2000s to the early 2010s. That prime overlaps Lebron's prime. They're basically contemporaries.

I'm simply referring to how each player compares to other players that are at a similar stage of their career, cause you mentioned you can only compare players by how they played against their peers. Peers meaning players that are at a similar career stage as who you are talking about.

Kobe was drafted seven years earlier than Lebron, Kobe caught the peak performances of certain players that had retired by the time Lebron was drafted, and my argument is that Kobe played against tougher vets than Lebron had to play against at a similar stage in their careers.

[Brye86]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

I'm simply referring to how each player compares to other players that are at a similar stage of their career, cause you mentioned you can only compare players by how they played against their peers. Peers meaning players that are at a similar career stage as who you are talking about.

Kobe was drafted seven years earlier than Lebron, Kobe caught the peak performances of certain players that had retired by the time Lebron was drafted, and my argument is that Kobe played against tougher vets than Lebron had to play against at a similar stage in their careers.

You know, since lebron entered the league he played against a prime iverson, mcgrady " his rc year", kobe, wade, durant, carmelo, westbrook, curry and harden......

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by Brye86

You know, since lebron entered the league he played against a prime iverson, mcgrady " his rc year", kobe, wade, durant, carmelo, westbrook, curry and harden......

But regarding Lebron's contemporaries (draft class mates, and the four drafts prior and three drafts afterwards), he played against no one significant compared to who Kobe had to play against.

You guys still don't understand that you need to compare how a player played against the players that are of similar career stage as that player, and Kobe had to play tougher players who were at his similar career stage than Lebron. There is no debating that.

I'll make it simple for you guys to understand. Let's use Tim Duncan. When Kobe was a seventh year player, he had to play against a sixth year Duncan.

When Lebron was a seventh year player, he had to play again a sixth year Dwight Howard.

Duncan was and is better than Howard. Get it?

[whoaitsg33]

they both pretty much played in a tough era. kobe faced some tough teams out west trailblazers, kings, spurs and played reggie millers pacers, yao/tmac rockets, melo in denver when he was still useful, prime dwight howard.


but i'll give this one to lebron. on his 14-17th season, he had to play a ridiculously stack golden state warriors, giannis and kawhi. lebron's road to a title was definitely much more difficult.

[markinca]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

You guys still don't understand that you need to compare how a player played against the players that are of similar career stage as that player, and Kobe had to play tougher players who were at his similar career stage than Lebron. There is no debating that.

Um, yes there most certainly is.

[Brye86]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

But regarding Lebron's contemporaries (draft class mates, and the four drafts prior and three drafts afterwards), he played against no one significant compared to who Kobe had to play against.

You guys still don't understand that you need to compare how a player played against the players that are of similar career stage as that player, and Kobe had to play tougher players who were at his similar career stage than Lebron. There is no debating that.

I'll make it simple for you guys to understand. Let's use Tim Duncan. When Kobe was a seventh year player, he had to play against a sixth year Duncan.

When Lebron was a seventh year player, he had to play again a sixth year Dwight Howard.

Duncan was and is better than Howard. Get it?

That's understandable but a very very very weird and misconstrued way to look at things. I named all the players that Lebron had the chance to play with in their primes. Listen, I think Kobe is better than Lebron tbh and Lebron for the majority of career has played in a "softer" league but there's no denying that he's also a great player.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by markinca

Um, yes there most certainly is.

Why don't you use some concrete examples? I've already provided plenty of evidence.

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by Brye86

That's understandable but a very very very weird and misconstrued way to look at things. I named all the players that Lebron had the chance to play with in their primes. Listen, I think Kobe is better than Lebron tbh and Lebron for the majority of career has played in a "softer" league but there's no denying that he's also a great player.

I agree Lebron is great, in fact he and Shaq are the most naturally gifted players in the history of the NBA. But Kobe still ranks above them imo because Kobe had the desire to win like Jordan, whereas Lebron and Shaq both fall short of the players they could of been due to a lack of focus and heart.