LeBron Exquisite /99 - altered & damaged

[usmc03vet]

In the spirit of transparency, my name is Joe Venegas & I am the owner/operator of Veterans Investment Group based in LA.

Now that I have appropriate identified myself, I will start off with the fact that I don't engage/interact/chime in much on here or anywhere else.

That being said, I feel that in this case regarding the LeBron RPA #25/99 BGS 9.5/10, it would be an absolute injustice not to say something now.

Here are the facts as I understand them:

First and foremost the current owners of this card prior to making the purchase did as much legwork as humanly possible to vet this card, to include contacting certain member's of blowoutforums in good faith asking them to help verify that the card is authentic & in it's original factory state free of any alterations.

According to these members, the card was 100% original and unaltered. Fast forward, card was subsequently purchased & within a matter of weeks this stance taken by these members was walked back and photographs mysteriously surfaced showing (what I would determine as significant corner damage) to the card.

Now, let us examine the "evidence" of trimming proposed by these members. The photograph shown of the card in it's un-graded state points out the bottom left & right corner with notes (the bottom right corner note states, "Debris in scan goes off card") which is alarming in and of itself.

If anyone here is familiar with photo editing or photoshopping, you would know that absolutely ANYTHING & or EVERYTHING can be done to a photograph showing what the editor wants the viewer to see, to include adding lines that would indicate corner damage which is non existen; however in this case the editor of the photograph extended his line beyond the card itself (amateur mistake or oversight) not sure which but it is convincing enough to me and many others that this line was artificially added.

Something to think about:

IF this significant corner damage previously existed & the card was indeed trimmed, the spacing from the bottom of the text "2003-04 EXQUISITE COLLECTION" and the bottom edge of the card would be so significant, it would be absolutely impossible for the card to meet the dimensions published by Upper Deck for this product.

Now, one could argue that the 03-04 Exquisite cards varied in size due to inaccurate cutting at the factory. I actually believe this to be true as well, BUT in this case there is no amount of margin of error that could be taken into consideration by Beckett to grade the card a 9.5 instead of Authentic Altered.

With the amount of corner damage proposed, a person would need to trim so much off the bottom edge of the card, it would be absolutely impossible for the card to be given a numerical grade.

There is absolutely NO concrete or even plausible evidence given here to substantiate the claim that the card is trimmed.

I would caution anyone & everyone posting unsubstantiated claims to do your due diligence & use common sense prior to "bashing" someone's card. This type of behavior is irresponsible and does absolutely nothing good for the hobby!

Moving forward, professional grading companies exist for a reason; do they make mistakes ABSOLUTELY...But in cases like this people are basically taking the opinions of non paid non professionals over the professionals we pay for their options who actually have an opportunity to examine the card thoroughly and completely in "raw" form. If you don't like the grading companies opinions, don't buy the cards...but don't "kill" other peoples cards based on speculation or hearsay.

[PKIPP]

15 months later this thread is still delivering.

[KhalDrogo]

Bottom line is that the card was vetted by 312 and he reversed his opinion after the sale. Trimmed or not, it was improperly vetted. Everyone knows buybuymj is the guy to go to for this information. Why didn’t that happen during the vetting process? When 312 received this new information, what did he do with it? And what’s the point of having a card vetted by BODA if BODA may not have gotten it right the first time around on a card of this magnitude?

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by usmc03vet

In the spirit of transparency, my name is Joe Venegas & I am the owner/operator of Veterans Investment Group based in LA.

Now that I have appropriate identified myself, I will start off with the fact that I don't engage/interact/chime in much on here or anywhere else.

That being said, I feel that in this case regarding the LeBron RPA #25/99 BGS 9.5/10, it would be an absolute injustice not to say something now.

Here are the facts as I understand them:

First and foremost the current owners of this card prior to making the purchase did as much legwork as humanly possible to vet this card, to include contacting certain member's of blowoutforums in good faith asking them to help verify that the card is authentic & in it's original factory state free of any alterations.

According to these members, the card was 100% original and unaltered. Fast forward, card was subsequently purchased & within a matter of weeks this stance taken by these members was walked back and photographs mysteriously surfaced showing (what I would determine as significant corner damage) to the card.

Now, let us examine the "evidence" of trimming proposed by these members. The photograph shown of the card in it's un-graded state points out the bottom left & right corner with notes (the bottom right corner note states, "Debris in scan goes off card") which is alarming in and of itself.

If anyone here is familiar with photo editing or photoshopping, you would know that absolutely ANYTHING & or EVERYTHING can be done to a photograph showing what the editor wants the viewer to see, to include adding lines that would indicate corner damage which is non existen; however in this case the editor of the photograph extended his line beyond the card itself (amateur mistake or oversight) not sure which but it is convincing enough to me and many others that this line was artificially added.

Something to think about:

IF this significant corner damage previously existed & the card was indeed trimmed, the spacing from the bottom of the text "2003-04 EXQUISITE COLLECTION" and the bottom edge of the card would be so significant, it would be absolutely impossible for the card to meet the dimensions published by Upper Deck for this product.

Now, one could argue that the 03-04 Exquisite cards varied in size due to inaccurate cutting at the factory. I actually believe this to be true as well, BUT in this case there is no amount of margin of error that could be taken into consideration by Beckett to grade the card a 9.5 instead of Authentic Altered.

With the amount of corner damage proposed, a person would need to trim so much off the bottom edge of the card, it would be absolutely impossible for the card to be given a numerical grade.

There is absolutely NO concrete or even plausible evidence given here to substantiate the claim that the card is trimmed.

I would caution anyone & everyone posting unsubstantiated claims to do your due diligence & use common sense prior to "bashing" someone's card. This type of behavior is irresponsible and does absolutely nothing good for the hobby!

Moving forward, professional grading companies exist for a reason; do they make mistakes ABSOLUTELY...But in cases like this people are basically taking the opinions of non paid non professionals over the professionals we pay for their options who actually have an opportunity to examine the card thoroughly and completely in "raw" form. If you don't like the grading companies opinions, don't buy the cards...but don't "kill" other peoples cards based on speculation or hearsay.

While I can understand your sentiment, it’s objectively incorrect. A card could be beat up beyond comprehension and restored to a gem mint card. This has been happening since the dawn of grading. Can you go from a 1 to a 10? Probably not. Can you go from a 6/7 to a 10. Absolutely and plenty of cards have.

Debating the corner and the damage previous isn’t a slam dunk in either direction, but you can tell just from the computer measurements COMC has done that the bottom is short prior to the original pictures. When the measurements he grabbed are from the original photo and just placed upon the new scan thats available, it’s pretty damn definitive as to what happened.

Hell, it doesn’t take a super genius to look at the BGS/PSA pop reports and see that the #78 has been graded 104 times...

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Bottom line is that the card was vetted by 312 and he reversed his opinion after the sale. Trimmed or not, it was improperly vetted. Everyone knows buybuymj is the guy to go to for this information. Why didn’t that happen during the vetting process? When 312 received this new information, what did he do with it? And what’s the point of having a card vetted by BODA if BODA may not have gotten it right the first time around on a card of this magnitude?

New information can always be unearthed. It seems Abra could potentially have something to add down the road. It’s damn near impossible to 100% vet a card.

Who knows what happened here are who had scans and when they had them?

[usmc03vet]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

While I can understand your sentiment, it’s objectively incorrect. A card could be beat up beyond comprehension and restored to a gem mint card. This has been happening since the dawn of grading. Can you go from a 1 to a 10? Probably not. Can you go from a 6/7 to a 10. Absolutely and plenty of cards have.

Debating the corner and the damage previous isn’t a slam dunk in either direction, but you can tell just from the computer measurements COMC has done that the bottom is short prior to the original pictures. When the measurements he grabbed are from the original photo and just placed upon the new scan thats available, it’s pretty damn definitive as to what happened.

Hell, it doesn’t take a super genius to look at the BGS/PSA pop reports and see that the #78 has been graded 104 times...

Three points:

#1. The main issue here is being overlooked, the current owners of the card asked members of Blowoutforums to vet the card, they verified the card, then once it was purchased & listed with PWCC Vault the same members said it's "trimmed"...at the very least this is absolutely irresponsible and screams hidden agenda. So now these owners have become collateral damage, absolutely ridiculous based on the lack of evidence.

#2. Nobody said the card was restored, they said it was trimmed.

#3. I don't know exactly which original photograph of the card raw COMC is looking at and measuring distance from, because from what I can see the white background blends in with the white card making it absolutely impossible to find the bottom edge of the card. Measurements via pictures are irrelevant here, Beckett will measure the card raw and no doubt verify it is within specs.

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by usmc03vet

Three points:

#1. The main issue here is being overlooked, the current owners of the card asked members of Blowoutforums to vet the card, they verified the card, then once it was purchased & listed with PWCC Vault the same members said it's "trimmed"...at the very least this is absolutely irresponsible and screams hidden agenda. So now these owners have become collateral damage, absolutely ridiculous based on the lack of evidence.

#2. Nobody said the card was restored, they said it was trimmed.

#3. I don't know exactly which original photograph of the card raw COMC is looking at and measuring distance from, because from what I can see the white background blends in with the white card making it absolutely impossible to find the bottom edge of the card. Measurements via pictures are irrelevant here, Beckett will measure the card raw and no doubt verify it is within specs.

1. I think that’s a lot of assumption. We don’t know what conversation went on about that card and/or what was said between the parties. To try and put blame on a third party that was reached out to is silly.

2. I was speaking in generalities. Just saying arguing over corner damage and using the justification that if the corner was damaged and then “fixed” that BGS wouldn’t grade it is beyond ridiculous. Of course they would and they have. PSA has as well.

3. It’s plain as day where the bottom of the card is. You realize it’s casting a shadow right? He’s just zoomed in to the photo where the edge is distinguished on the photo I assume he was given from BBMJ. Honestly, the bottom being trimmed isn’t really disputable.

What can be disputed:

-why wasn’t this brought up in the vetting process
-the corners of the card

The bottom being trimmed is as much of a slam dunk as you’re going to get.

Edit to add: For that matter you can see chipping on the card to the right of the serial number that is no longer present in the graded copy. Anybody who has ever handled a 130 point card knows what’s up.

[brianaz29]

So doesn't this most recent picture from 8/6/2006, just set the time frame for the potential alteration? I would agree that the card looks better in that picture (albeit blurry), but considering the prior picture (that has potential flaws) is from 2/21/2006 it doesn't really confirm anything. I agree with Khal that the bottom left corner could be the inner sleeve crumpling, but the measurement differences, as well as the right side nicking on the 2/21 picture are still concerning.

Do we know of the disposition of the card between 2/21/2006 and 8/6/2006? A picture from prior to 2/21/2006 would also potentially clarify this. The 2/21 picture isn't the highest quality, so some of what we are seeing could be scanning artifacts for all we know.

I'd also be curious if the vetting 312 did for the card was a formal agreement or not? It seems pretty crummy to out the card after the fact, but we also don't know what that prior vetting consisted of, or if there were protections in place. I'm not sure we can really claim liability on his part until we get more details.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

While I can understand your sentiment, it’s objectively incorrect. A card could be beat up beyond comprehension and restored to a gem mint card. This has been happening since the dawn of grading. Can you go from a 1 to a 10? Probably not. Can you go from a 6/7 to a 10. Absolutely and plenty of cards have.

Debating the corner and the damage previous isn’t a slam dunk in either direction, but you can tell just from the computer measurements COMC has done that the bottom is short prior to the original pictures. When the measurements he grabbed are from the original photo and just placed upon the new scan thats available, it’s pretty damn definitive as to what happened.

Hell, it doesn’t take a super genius to look at the BGS/PSA pop reports and see that the #78 has been graded 104 times...

So which is it then Geech? Do you feel like you can definitively say where that bottom edge begins on the old crappy scan?

Calling this card trimmed is the hobby equivalent of sending a man to prison for life. And let's be clear, we're not calling out a trimmer here (maybe yet, Abra?). So the only people affected are the new owners and maybe the old owner depending on the contract of the sale. This is the only example I can think of where a card was called out, not associated with a trimmer, and did not have irrefutable evidence that it was trimmed (think of the Heritage LeBron SPA).

Like I said before, this is the most expensive card called out to-date. It is a somewhere in the range of a $500k-$750k card. There should be no dispute over any alleged alteration. Given the magnitude, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask the other BODA members their opinion on the evidence. Also not unreasonable to ask 312 how this all went down after his original assessment. There is a ton of money at stake here, and there are parties with financial interest in this card being legit and those who would benefit from it being altered.

[Doublestriker]

Great points by Joe and Dave on this one. I won’t add anything because I think you both covered it well! By the way great meeting you yesterday Dave.

Dustin
Ig:LJRookiecardvault

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

So which is it then Geech? Do you feel like you can definitively say where that bottom edge begins on the old crappy scan?

Calling this card trimmed is the hobby equivalent of sending a man to prison for life. And let's be clear, we're not calling out a trimmer here (maybe yet, Abra?). So the only people affected are the new owners and maybe the old owner depending on the contract of the sale. This is the only example I can think of where a card was called out, not associated with a trimmer, and did not have irrefutable evidence that it was trimmed (think of the Heritage LeBron SPA).

Like I said before, this is the most expensive card called out to-date. It is a somewhere in the range of a $500k-$750k card. There should be no dispute over any alleged alteration. Given the magnitude, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask the other BODA members their opinion on the evidence. Also not unreasonable to ask 312 how this all went down after his original assessment. There is a ton of money at stake here, and there are parties with financial interest in this card being legit and those who would benefit from it being altered.

Yes Khal you can absolutely see the bottom edge of the card. It casts a shadow...

Saying you can’t tell about the corners and then saying the edge doesn’t measure are not mutually exclusive. Again, you can also see chipping along the edge.

I get the sentiment you’re saying, but literally a pair of eyes and handling of raw Exquisites (or any 130 point card) tells you all you REASONABLY need to know.

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

So which is it then Geech? Do you feel like you can definitively say where that bottom edge begins on the old crappy scan?

Calling this card trimmed is the hobby equivalent of sending a man to prison for life. And let's be clear, we're not calling out a trimmer here (maybe yet, Abra?). So the only people affected are the new owners and maybe the old owner depending on the contract of the sale. This is the only example I can think of where a card was called out, not associated with a trimmer, and did not have irrefutable evidence that it was trimmed (think of the Heritage LeBron SPA).

Like I said before, this is the most expensive card called out to-date. It is a somewhere in the range of a $500k-$750k card. There should be no dispute over any alleged alteration. Given the magnitude, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask the other BODA members their opinion on the evidence. Also not unreasonable to ask 312 how this all went down after his original assessment. There is a ton of money at stake here, and there are parties with financial interest in this card being legit and those who would benefit from it being altered.

If anyone has a copy of what I sent to whoever PMed me about this card in December, feel free to post it. I think I stand behind everything in that PM. We shall see as I don’t have a copy.

A few weeks back someone sent this this photo of this card, so I looked into it and concluded it was trimmed. Before I was even sent that photo, someone had already backed out of a deal on that card after it was listed in the Vault and they had gotten a copy of the photo I was sent. That underscored the need have it removed from the public market, which has been successful.

That’s really all there is to it.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

Yes Khal you can absolutely see the bottom edge of the card. It casts a shadow...

Saying you can’t tell about the corners and then saying the edge doesn’t measure are not mutually exclusive. Again, you can also see chipping along the edge.

I get the sentiment you’re saying, but literally a pair of eyes and handling of raw Exquisites (or any 130 point card) tells you all you REASONABLY need to know.

I will agree to disagree then. I cannot 100% say I can see where the bottom edge of that card is. Everywhere but in the corners it blends into the background because the scan is overexposed. And if the edge is an issue, why was it not called out by 312? You think he missed it? Or is there doubt that the edge is really chipped (reflection by a sleeve?)?

312's post has permanently casted doubt on this card. We're not talking about a $1000 card that SSI guy obviously trimmed. We're talking about half a million dollars in cardboard being outed as trimmed with no associated trimmer.

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

If anyone has a copy of what I sent to whoever PMed me about this card in December, feel free to post it. I think I stand behind everything in that PM. We shall see as I don’t have a copy.

A few weeks back someone sent this this photo of this card, so I looked into it and concluded it was trimmed. Before I was even sent that photo, someone had already backed out of a deal on that card after it was listed in the Vault and they had gotten a copy of the photo I was sent. That underscored the need have it removed from the public market, which has been successful.

That’s really all there is to it.

Sorry 312, you did a poor job vetting the card. I just hope you had the courtesy to let the buyers personally know you made a mistake before going public.

If Dan and corndog would weigh in, I think that would help. Ultimately what helps most is having the card measured out. If it measures short, that is concerning. If it measures appropriately, I wouldn't hang my hat on a poor quality 14 year old scan with dirt covering the corners.

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

I will agree to disagree then. I cannot 100% say I can see where the bottom edge of that card is. Everywhere but in the corners it blends into the background because the scan is overexposed. And if the edge is an issue, why was it not called out by 312? You think he missed it? Or is there doubt that the edge is really chipped (reflection by a sleeve?)?

312's post has permanently casted doubt on this card. We're not talking about a $1000 card that SSI guy obviously trimmed. We're talking about half a million dollars in cardboard being outed as trimmed with no associated trimmer.


Sorry 312, you did a poor job vetting the card. I just hope you had the courtesy to let the buyers personally know you made a mistake before going public.

If Dan and corndog would weigh in, I think that would help. Ultimately what helps most is having the card measured out. If it measures short, that is concerning. If it measures appropriately, I wouldn't hang my hat on a poor quality 14 year old scan with dirt covering the corners.

Who are you to say that I did a poor job “vetting” (your word, not mine)? I’m not paid to give my opinion, and frankly, I would much rather not have to look at dozens of cards for various members every week, but I do it anyway as a public service. If someone doesn’t want my free opinion, put me on ignore and don’t PM me.

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

I will agree to disagree then. I cannot 100% say I can see where the bottom edge of that card is. Everywhere but in the corners it blends into the background because the scan is overexposed. And if the edge is an issue, why was it not called out by 312? You think he missed it? Or is there doubt that the edge is really chipped (reflection by a sleeve?)?

312's post has permanently casted doubt on this card. We're not talking about a $1000 card that SSI guy obviously trimmed. We're talking about half a million dollars in cardboard being outed as trimmed with no associated trimmer.


Sorry 312, you did a poor job vetting the card. I just hope you had the courtesy to let the buyers personally know you made a mistake before going public.

If Dan and corndog would weigh in, I think that would help. Ultimately what helps most is having the card measured out. If it measures short, that is concerning. If it measures appropriately, I wouldn't hang my hat on a poor quality 14 year old scan with dirt covering the corners.

We can agree to disagree. I’m good with that. I don’t really think it’s in dispute, especially the edges but to each his own.

What I do take issue with is with is calling out 312. It seems like people are blaming him for this and it comes across horrendously. Like this is his fault when all he’s doing is middle-manning information he has available to him at the time. The fact that others are relying on his opinion and ability to gather information should be the ultimate red flag and the purchaser should really look inward onto themselves and question if they want to take that risk. Again, anybody who’s handled the 03/04 Exquisites should realize that 99.99% of the cards did not come out Gem-Mint. They just flat out didn’t.

[usmc03vet]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

If anyone has a copy of what I sent to whoever PMed me about this card in December, feel free to post it. I think I stand behind everything in that PM. We shall see as I don’t have a copy.

A few weeks back someone sent this this photo of this card, so I looked into it and concluded it was trimmed. Before I was even sent that photo, someone had already backed out of a deal on that card after it was listed in the Vault and they had gotten a copy of the photo I was sent. That underscored the need have it removed from the public market, which has been successful.

That’s really all there is to it.

Let me get this straight.

COMC...you received a grainy, extremely poor quality photograph of a card worth 500K +, "looked into it" and concluded that it was trimmed coupled with knowledge of someone backing out of a deal for the card after receiving presumably the same photograph of the card that you based your conclusion on?

On these grounds, you walked back your previous assessment of the card verifying that it was legitimate?

As someone who has a platform & reputation for calling out cards that are trimmed, altered, or counterfeit...don't you think that it was extremely irresponsible to give the owners of this card your "stamp of approval" and then after they purchase it, publicly assassinate the card here on blowoutforums?

People come to you for advice and obviously value your opinion, not to potentially destroy a 1/2 million dollar investment.

If you had doubts or reservations giving these guys the OK to purchase...maybe you should have just removed yourself from the conversation.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

Who are you to say that I did a poor job “vetting” (your word, not mine)? I’m not paid to give my opinion, and frankly, I would much rather not have to look at dozens of cards for various members every week, but I do it anyway as a public service. If someone doesn’t want my free opinion, put me on ignore and don’t PM me.

Who am I? I'm a nobody. But I at least know to refer any LBJ Exquisite RPA inquiry to buybuymj to see if he has the card in his archive. You apparently didn't know that.

Do you think the submission I rebuilt is suggestive of a trimmer?

Do you think there is any doubt that this card is altered?

[Deadshot]

Originally Posted by brianaz29

So doesn't this most recent picture from 8/6/2006, just set the time frame for the potential alteration? I would agree that the card looks better in that picture (albeit blurry), but considering the prior picture (that has potential flaws) is from 2/21/2006 it doesn't really confirm anything. I agree with Khal that the bottom left corner could be the inner sleeve crumpling, but the measurement differences, as well as the right side nicking on the 2/21 picture are still concerning.

I might have missed it, but this was the only mention I saw of the right edge. That stuck out to me in the 2006 picture as well. Has this been addressed already?

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

What I do take issue with is with is calling out 312. It seems like people are blaming him for this and it comes across horrendously. Like this is his fault when all he’s doing is middle-manning information he has available to him at the time. The fact that others are relying on his opinion and ability to gather information should be the ultimate red flag and the purchaser should really look inward onto themselves and question if they want to take that risk. Again, anybody who’s handled the 03/04 Exquisites should realize that 99.99% of the cards did not come out Gem-Mint. They just flat out didn’t.

And I take issue with 312 providing his opinion before the sale, then changing his mind, outing the card here, and not even acknowledging that he made a mistake in his original assessment.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by Deadshot

I might have missed it, but this was the only mention I saw of the right edge. That stuck out to me in the 2006 picture as well. Has this been addressed already?

No. You'd have to ask 312 why he didn't flag the edge in his reassessment.

[cking]

Originally Posted by usmc03vet

at the very least this is absolutely irresponsible and screams hidden agenda..

Looking at your ebay name and your ebay inventory it seems you are the one with the hidden agenda

[usmc03vet]

Originally Posted by cking

Looking at your ebay name and your ebay inventory it seems you are the one with the hidden agenda

Do tell?

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by cking

Looking at your ebay name and your ebay inventory it seems you are the one with the hidden agenda

I don't think there's anything wrong with someone deeply invested in the market to have an interest in wanting the assessment of the most expensive modern day RC to be 100% kosher.

The bad guys are the trimmers. We don't want to lose sight of that.

[rebbrooks]

Originally Posted by usmc03vet

Do tell?

Are the owners going to try to get their money back?

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Who am I? I'm a nobody. But I at least know to refer any LBJ Exquisite RPA inquiry to buybuymj to see if he has the card in his archive. You apparently didn't know that.

As I recall, the first thing I stated in my comments on this card in December was that I am not an expert on the LBJ exquisite.