2020 Politics Thread - Enter At Your Own Risk - RULES IN OP

[HBMC]

Originally Posted by discostu

Let Hillary go of what? Crazy conspiracies that morons and halfwits believe in?

Violating the Federal Records Act and also the Espionage Act isn't a conspiracy theory, the reason she will never be prosecuted is because it isn't politically feasible and furthermore, Trump cynically used this situation as a ploy. If he lost the 2016 Election, he would maintain victim status. Since he won, it is a cudgel to whip up his base.

Establishment of a private e-mail server (that wasn't adequately secured mind you) that handled sensitive documents per their own cataloguing system is ripe for being exploited by foreign governments. It is also a violation of the public trust.

Any piece of sensitive correspondence that is found to have been mishandled by said Government employee is punishable under the following clause of the Federal Espionage Act:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/793

(f)Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

This clause also applies per offense, not just for one lump sum of screw ups (and that is a generous case here, the intent to establish a server offsite is clearly made). For every mishandled communique (irrespective of media source or type) violations of this act are punishable by the maximum term stated above. Negligence is the standard, not intent.

This isn't a conspiracy, it is merely another example of the people who wield power in this nation being utterly unaccountable. We're being robbed blind and plundered as a society and the jibbering masses just cry out for "MOAR!"

[RedSoxFan28]

Originally Posted by free2131

Anyone else see the Alex Azar wouldn't say that a vaccine for the Corona Virus would be affordable for everyone and talked about how "price controls" aren't the answer? This is the same guy who was in charge of Eli Lilly when they increased prices for insulin.

He does say they will be trying their most bestest to make it affordable. I think we have a pic of them at the meeting...

The pharmaceutical industry needs to make money too, they dont make enough currently, let them charge whatever they want and let the poor die. Rather have that than a communist-socialist.

[jdandns]

They're always looking for "signs", aren't they?

Here's a couple to consider:

W. got Katrina.
Trump got Corona.

So far, yer doin' a heckuva job, Trumpie!

[preakness]

Really? Realllllly??

Lol

[jdandns]

No, not really.

Michael Brown was only over his head in a job he was wholly unqualified for.

Trump has that problem, too, but he's piling on top of his obvious incompetence his traditional tired shtick of making something all about himself.

[HBMC]

Originally Posted by free2131

You can have some socialistic programs in a government that is mostly capitalistic. It's not one or the other.

We already do and they're creating disparities all over society. Those programs everyone loves to death grip are bankrupting us all and robbing our pockets a little more every day.

The amount of economic dislocation that exists in the health industry can be directly attributed to the FDR era wage controls during WWII (and the complete reliance on employer provided health insurance that subsequently followed) and creation of the Great Society programs of Medicare and Medicaid. Now we have not only have 3rd party payers, but 4th and 5th party middlemen in the market that bloat every single health related cost that goes through insurance.

Aetna and Cigna have been able to grow post-ACA, they were big proponents of the bill as it would push some of their direct competition out of business (think carriers that provided policies that didn't meet the minimum requirements of the ACA regs, essentially a price floor), now Aetna merged with CVS and they're raking in record revenues (and profits). Conglomerates run the market now and they keep expanding.

Most large companies are more than happy to thrive off of venture socialism when the Federal Government bulldozes their competition out of the way. This happens in every industry and it only requires a tiny bit of clarity and research to see it.

Saying you agree with some policies that were enacted by a murderous dictator does not mean you support that murderous dictator or want to enact a dictatorship.

Maybe tell that to some of the crackpots that work in Bernie's inner circle (or his campaign), or maybe Bernie himself, since he thinks all those Communist regimes really need some more apologetics, because in his eyes, they were just misunderstood instead of being meat-grinders that smothered individualism and murdered heaps of their own citizens to reach utopia.

If you're trying to sell utopia, you are trying to peddle a religion, not an ideology. I am not buying and nor should anyone else who hasn't been worked over in an Orwellian institution of higher "learning".

People should be smart enough for us not to have to qualify that every time someone brings up good policies made by bad governments.

A literacy program at the barrel of a gun isn't a good policy, it is thuggery. The two cannot be separated (and don't try with me, the application of policy is an indicator of intent, not the other way around). The Soviet subway system having nice chandeliers is part of this too. A fascia of aesthetics isn't a substitute for a more free society.

Trying to apologize for aspects of regimes like these makes me question how much you (or anyone else who thinks Bernie is merely in the social democracy model of Scandinavia) has actually read about Cuba, Russia, the Soviet satellites and the other nations that succumbed to "popular" Communist revolutions. Same goes for the Third Reich, fascist Italy or the military junta of Imperial Japan (which was far more cultural than ideological).

This topic needs an enema.

[RedSoxFan28]

[chezball]

Originally Posted by discostu

Let Hillary go of what? Crazy conspiracies that morons and halfwits believe in?

Good grief, if there was a shred of anything that could give Trump the possibility of getting her "locked up," we would have seen it already. But sadly, there's nothing. Nothing. Nothing criminal and nothing that even warrants a public shaming spectacle in front of Congress that Trump would love.

But let's call it what it is...a chant to entertain idiots. These dimwitted clowns regurgitate these inane chants like they're at a WWE event cheering on their favorite wrestler. It's theater, nothing more.

How many "Deep State" crackpot theories can you handle?

Those e-mails she deleted and bleach bit were under subpoena.
Obstruction of justice right there. times 33k how many years would that get her. Everyone single person who handled the case is gone. Nothing to see, right.

[free2131]

Originally Posted by HBMC

We already do and they're creating disparities all over society. Those programs everyone loves to death grip are bankrupting us all and robbing our pockets a little more every day.

Now we have not only have 3rd party payers, but 4th and 5th party middlemen in the market that bloat every single health related cost that goes through insurance.

Eliminate the middlemen. No need for insurance. I wasn't a fan of the ACA because of the fact that it didn't cut out the insurance companies and regulate costs. The ACA wasn't socialism because it didn't go far enough to remove the profit motive.

A literacy program at the barrel of a gun isn't a good policy, it is thuggery.

I agree. Which is why saying that the policy in a vacuum is a good policy is not the same as condoning the regime that implemented the policy or the way it was implemented.

I don't agree with him saying that the only reason people didn't rise against Castro was because of education and healthcare. It is much more complicated than that. When he was pressed on it, he played "whataboutism" with Trump and Un and Putin which, while true, is something I can't stand people doing. He should have made his statement, agreed that is wasn't that simple, and own up to it.

Socialized healthcare is, in my opinion, the best and most moral way to provide healthcare to everyone. Regulating the costs associated with healthcare and cutting out insurance companies will lower the costs associated with healthcare. Almost every study shows that the amount paid in taxes for this would be counterbalanced by the lowering of costs related to healthcare we now have.

[Madoka]

Originally Posted by jdandns

O was only over his head in a job he was wholly unqualified for.
Trump has that problem, too, but he's piling on top of his obvious incompetence his traditional tired shtick of making something all about himself.

Hey now, what would your fellow liberals say if they found you referring to Obama that way?

[rman112]

I couldn't sleep, so I came back to the Ilhan Omar story brought up a few days back.

https://alphanewsmn.com/brother-ilha...ed-send-email/

If those emails from Elmi himself aren't doctored (Alpha certainly has an axe to grind with Ilhan), then it's some of the most ridiculous sh*t that I've ever seen.

Elmi says he "doesn't recall being to married to anyone. Not that I can remember." LMAO. Jesus effing Christ.

[fulltritty]

Originally Posted by Soxfanguy

If Democrats flip senate and Bernie wins there is nothing stopping them

Yes there is. It's called the 2nd Amendment.

[TheHeel]

Again....too much Bernie fear.

I would think that after Super Tuesday then there is a chance for worry. That California vote will hurt everyone not named Bernie though.

[callou2131]

Originally Posted by free2131

You can have some socialistic programs in a government that is mostly capitalistic. It's not one or the other.

Saying you agree with some policies that were enacted by a murderous dictator does not mean you support that murderous dictator or want to enact a dictatorship. People should be smart enough for us not to have to qualify that every time someone brings up good policies made by bad governments.

Good policies...
Cuba’s literacy rate rose by 26 percent between 1950/53 and 2000. But literacy rose even more, by 37 percent, in Paraguay. Food consumption in Cuba actually declined by 12 percent between 1954/57 and 1995/97. It rose by 19 percent in Chile and by 28 percent in Mexico over the same time period. Between 1954/57 and 1995/97, the rate of change in car ownership per 1,000 people in Cuba declined at an annual rate of 0.1 percent. It increased at an annual rate of 16 percent in Brazil, 25 percent in Ecuador and 26 percent in Colombia.

Next, consider healthcare. Sanders has repeatedly extolled Cuba’s healthcare system, opining that in Cuba the communist revolutionary and dictator Fidel Castro “gave them [the Cuban people] health care, totally transformed the society, you know?” Yet a recent study has found that Cuba’s seemingly impressive health performance is partly due to data manipulation and coercion.

Life expectancy is the best proxy measure of health. According to Cuba’s official data, it rose by 25 percent between 1960 and 2017. Yet life expectancy increased even faster in comparable countries: in Mexico it improved by 35 percent, in the Dominican Republic by 43 percent, and in impoverished Haiti by 51 percent.

https://www.cato.org/blog/senator-sa...ion-healthcare

[Soxfanguy]

Originally Posted by callou2131

Good policies...

Cuba’s literacy rate rose by 26 percent between 1950/53 and 2000. But literacy rose even more, by 37 percent, in Paraguay. Food consumption in Cuba actually declined by 12 percent between 1954/57 and 1995/97. It rose by 19 percent in Chile and by 28 percent in Mexico over the same time period. Between 1954/57 and 1995/97, the rate of change in car ownership per 1,000 people in Cuba declined at an annual rate of 0.1 percent. It increased at an annual rate of 16 percent in Brazil, 25 percent in Ecuador and 26 percent in Colombia.



Next, consider healthcare. Sanders has repeatedly extolled Cuba’s healthcare system, opining that in Cuba the communist revolutionary and dictator Fidel Castro “gave them [the Cuban people] health care, totally transformed the society, you know?” Yet a recent study has found that Cuba’s seemingly impressive health performance is partly due to data manipulation and coercion.



Life expectancy is the best proxy measure of health. According to Cuba’s official data, it rose by 25 percent between 1960 and 2017. Yet life expectancy increased even faster in comparable countries: in Mexico it improved by 35 percent, in the Dominican Republic by 43 percent, and in impoverished Haiti by 51 percent.



https://www.cato.org/blog/senator-sa...ion-healthcare

But those countries aren’t communist so Bernie doesn’t like them

[pac213up]

Originally Posted by Soxfanguy

If Democrats flip senate and Bernie wins there is nothing stopping them

Moderate Dems and 67 votes in Senate.

[free2131]

Originally Posted by callou2131

Good policies...

Firstly, that was meant in a general sense, not specifically involving Castro. Secondly, I wonder how much the embargo effects those numbers, considering that we have threatened to hold up foreign aid to countries who trade with Cuba.

The WHO had Cuba listed as 39th best in overall healthcare in the world. The US was number 37. Guess what the ranks on amount spent per capita in healthcare costs was. US was #1. Cuba was #118. Imagine without the embargo and economic sanctions how high their rank would be. Imagine how much higher ours could be.

[JeremyNick]

Originally Posted by free2131

You can have some socialistic programs in a government that is mostly capitalistic. It's not one or the other.

You are conflating socialist programs with a socialist government.

My point was that a capitalistic program (I.e. for profit healthcare) can’t be “reformed” into something else and stay a capitalist program - especially a state run healthcare program. It’s simply lying so that you don’t have to call it socialism.

Bernie is really good at that. Twisting words and phrases so he doesn’t have to come out and saying his policies, programs and reforms are simply to drive socialist change.

Anyone who knows history, or present day news - knows socialist programs and governments have a short shelf life that typically end in financial and social failure. But if you talk about “reforming” programs and “basic rights” it makes it all sound so neat and good.

[free2131]

Originally Posted by JeremyNick

My point was that a capitalistic program (I.e. for profit healthcare) can’t be “reformed” into something else and stay a capitalist program - especially a state run healthcare program. It’s simply lying so that you don’t have to call it socialism.

Obviously. I'm pretty sure no one is thinking that socialized healthcare is a capitalistic program.

Anyone who knows history, or present day news - knows socialist programs and governments have a short shelf life that typically end in financial and social failure.

There are several countries who have been running universal healthcare coverage since the 50s and 60s. Setting up an entire government based on Socialism, Communism, laissez-faire Capitalism, or strictly one form of government without flexibility is always a bad idea. You need a mix of ideas and checks and balances.

[discostu]

Originally Posted by Soxfanguy

If Democrats flip senate and Bernie wins there is nothing stopping them

Originally Posted by fulltritty

Yes there is. It's called the 2nd Amendment.

It's comments like this that make threads like this disappear.

It also negates any semblance of credibility you have.

[JeremyNick]

Originally Posted by free2131

Obviously. I'm pretty sure no one is thinking that socialized healthcare is a capitalistic program

Well that’s not the case. This whole exchange started because of someone quoting Bernie that he was just going to reform health care.

And then strawmen got put up, points got twisted and conflated and you make a statement completely antithetical to the statement that started this whole exchange.

I encourage reading and comprehending over just jumping into a conversation and posting.

I am not for Universal Healthcare. Not because I don’t think it could have benefit, but because we can’t even manage partial universal healthcare with Medicare. Also because as a society we lack responsibility for self care and lifestyle choices. Most all of the top morality and morbidity drivers are lifestyle related disease. If we want to talk fairness and basic rights, I should not have to fund healthcare for individuals who take no ownership of their lifestyle and decisions. I think it is poor stewardship of government to dump all the cost onto the American people. At least with for profit healthcare, you generally bear the greater burden of your choices. That would completely go away with Universal Healthcare. Our society is not advanced enough to manage that.

[Soxfanguy]

Why did jdandns get a vacation?

[Soxfanguy]

Originally Posted by discostu

It's comments like this that make threads like this disappear.

It also negates any semblance of credibility you have.

What did I say that was bad?

[cnewby]

Originally Posted by Soxfanguy

Why did jdandns get a vacation?

Who cares.

President Trump giving Pence the reigns for Coronavirus response - I like it.

[free2131]

Originally Posted by JeremyNick

This whole exchange started because of someone quoting Bernie that he was just going to reform health care.

Semantics.

Reform: make changes in (something, typically a social, political, or economic institution or practice) in order to improve it.

You're reforming our for-profit form of healthcare into one that is not.

Originally Posted by JeremyNick

At least with for profit healthcare, you generally bear the greater burden of your choices.

You don't think you subsidize the poor choices of others with our current system? You think insurance and for profit hospitals are just taking a hit? Most people actually (according to many studies) will end up paying less for healthcare than they do now with this system.

Your argument reminds me of people who don't have children complaining that they pay taxes to put other people's children in school. In a society you have to sometimes do things for the greater good, and educating children and providing people healthcare is for the greater good, IMO.

Once profit is taken out of the equation and medical costs can be controlled, it will cost a lot less for healthcare. Health is one of the places that Capitalism doesn't belong.