Jordan currently undervalued? Kobe and Lebron Affect

[KhalDrogo]

MJ has The Shoes. LeBron has shoes. MJ could die tomorrow and LeBron win a title this year in LA, and MJ still wouldn’t cede the throne to LeBron.

MJ will always be the most important basketball player to ever play the game. His card prices will continue to climb.

[tlm7995]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

No 3 2 1

You make perfect sense

If I was of an age where I didn’t witness the force of nature that was MJ throughout his career I might think Lebron was the best too.

There are still a lot of people buying cards who did, myself included.

Plenty for everyone. I can’t imagine the prices Jordan would cost if his best rookie was numbered to 99.

Hobby is different now vs then. Some things better and some worse.

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

with each passing day, when it come sto MJ, the "i was too young" becomes less and less relevant.

Thanks to YouTube and the like, there are plenty of tweens that are able to see MJ

will that ever be the same as being around back then? No, of course not.

i think that in 20 years time, the 15 year old now, is going to have the disposable income to collect both MJ and Bron

not trying to spark a debate, but where did I say I thought Lebron was better than jordan? I think you might just be sensitive to the thought of it.

I don't collect Jordan because (like I said) I didn't grow up watching him. I've watched "Come Fly with Me" and plenty of other games/highlights. In my opinion, he is the most skilled player of all time. I've grown up watching Kobe and Lebron so their cards mean more to me. Color me weird.

[Kobefan]

I agree, collectors don’t have to collect the best player, they collect who they like. For me, I started around 96-97 and wanted to collect a player from the beginning, so even though I recognized that mj is the goat, I refuse to collect someone who’s career is almost over.

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by tlm7995

Perhaps some of it has to do with their fan bases getting older and getting more money as a result of job/salary growth? I never got to see Jordan growing up, but I saw Kobe and Lebron. Those are the only cards I want, as a result.

Those are just my thoughts. I'm not saying it explains Kobe and Lebron's increases.

I think something else to factor in is that with every year that Lebron reaches more milestones, the line between who is the greatest gets more and more blurred...perhaps people have been selling Jordan to buy Lebron because of this?



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I wasn't trying to debate either. I was trying to see your point of view. I inferred as the result of the bolded.

I am not sensitive to any sort of reasonable conversation.

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by Kobefan

I agree, collectors don’t have to collect the best player, they collect who they like. For me, I started around 96-97 and wanted to collect a player from the beginning, so even though I recognized that mj is the goat, I refuse to collect someone who’s career is almost over.

Exactly, I collect Bird and Isiah. I don't think they are the goat. I just like them. A lot of people here religiously collect players that others throw in the trash. This hobby has a lot for every type of personality and interest. That's why it's great.

[6celtics33]

I've never been a kobe fan but he is the one player who I often have to talk myself out of buying. I know I could spend my hobby dollars somewhere I would enjoy it more but I think Kobe has some great cards and I find myself going that might be a nice one to own. Then i"m like no stop.

But his stuff is great. The employee gift game jersey auto of him dunking is one of the nicest cards ever made to me.

[Willikn]

Originally Posted by tlm7995

I don't collect Jordan because (like I said) I didn't grow up watching him. I've watched "Come Fly with Me" and plenty of other games/highlights. In my opinion, he is the most skilled player of all time. I've grown up watching Kobe and Lebron so their cards mean more to me. Color me weird.

Not weird man. Perfectly normal.

I'm as passionate as any Jordan fan. Not more so, but just as much. However, my passion (insanity) is the 80's stuff from my youth. I don't really pursue the items everyone else does aside to #57.

If I'm asked, "what Jordan stuff is undervalued?" I point to the true rarities (my opinion) instead of manufactured rarities. I too could be colored weird as a result. Since I'm in the minority, I suspect the items I love aren't undervalued.

[6celtics33]

I'm a 90s guy. I dont' care about the auto patch stuff as much. I like the cards for the cards sake. I know in 2000s Lebron gets a lot of love for refractors. Here is a card I would already own if I was a Lebron guy. To 100, this card looks fantastic to me and would fit right in the 90s.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/LeBron-Jame...0AAOSwgZteDjML

[MJGOAT23]

Originally Posted by tlm7995

Perhaps some of it has to do with their fan bases getting older and getting more money as a result of job/salary growth? I never got to see Jordan growing up, but I saw Kobe and Lebron. Those are the only cards I want, as a result.

Those are just my thoughts. I'm not saying it explains Kobe and Lebron's increases.

I think something else to factor in is that with every year that Lebron reaches more milestones, the line between who is the greatest gets more and more blurred...perhaps people have been selling Jordan to buy Lebron because of this?



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Doesn't matter if LBJ breaks every record. He can never top MJ's peak. Peak MJ is >anyone's

[6celtics33]

And if I was going to buy a kobe rookie I'd be buying one of these before I ever spent $ on a chrome refractor that would turn green on me. My 2 cents

https://www.ebay.com/itm/BGS9-96-97-...4dd0%7Ciid%3A1

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by MJGOAT23

Doesn't matter if LBJ breaks every record. He can never top MJ's peak. Peak MJ is >anyone's

no bias

[Willikn]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

I'm a 90s guy. I dont' care about the auto patch stuff as much. I like the cards for the cards sake. I know in 2000s Lebron gets a lot of love for refractors. Here is a card I would already own if I was a Lebron guy. To 100, this card looks fantastic to me and would fit right in the 90s.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/LeBron-Jame...0AAOSwgZteDjML

That is cool!!

[regularp]

Originally Posted by lietuvalabas

if we're talking autos then yeah maybe so, some dip for sure. obviously the playing days and 90s stuff would still be leaps and bounds more valuable. but even compare inserts, refractors of jordan vs kobe. rule of thumb used to be jordan X2 of kobe which seemed fair, jordan earned that. but 3-4X kobe? no way.

This is it right here. Kobe stuff was simply undervalued. I made a couple posts about it years ago and wondered if there'd be a trickle down effect to Kobe stuff.

[jj2]

Originally Posted by Hdpooh34

That's irrelevant. Kobe current and future Panini cards have no impact on his pre-Panini Upper Deck releases from the 90s and early 00s. This is why we are seeing his earlier stuff go up recently. If anything, they make people desire his earlier releases more, as those can never be replicated and are so much nicer than current Panini cards.

Of course later releases have an impact. You might be able to argue that it's a small impact, but you can't say they have no impact.

[SnipeLeafs101]

I grew up in the Lebron era.

I personally buy Lebron cards. I have a connection to watching Lebron more so than any other - even with Jordan youtube videos

I know Jordan cards are amazing, and they look great too.. but still, the collecting part of me wants Lebron

[csrockerzero]

MJ and Kobe were active during the golden age of production and collecting. Their card values are immortal IMO, at least anything pre-Poonini

[tlm7995]

Originally Posted by MJGOAT23

Doesn't matter if LBJ breaks every record. He can never top MJ's peak. Peak MJ is >anyone's

Will you define what "peak" is? I'm not trying to be a condescending jerk and I'm not looking to pick it apart. I'm just curious what you think.

[goldkobe]

Originally Posted by tlm7995

Will you define what "peak" is? I'm not trying to be a condescending jerk and I'm not looking to pick it apart. I'm just curious what you think.

In the game:
MJ #1 and will always be #1 of all time.
LBJ: top 3-5 of all time
KB: Tops 5- 10 all time


In the hobby:
MJ #1
LBJ #2
KB #3.

[Kobefan]

Originally Posted by goldkobe

In the game:
MJ #1 and will always be #1 of all time.
LBJ: top 3-5 of all time
KB: Tops 5- 10 all time


In the hobby:
MJ #1
LBJ #2
KB #3.

No offense, outside of mj, there are a list of players who can make an argument in the 2-10 positions, with no fixed position. I think Kobe is in the top 5.

[tlm7995]

Jordan was just leaps and bounds ahead of his peers. The distance between him and the guys he played against is greater than the distance between Lebron and his peers.

The natural order for any league/industry is for competition to increase over time. If Jordan had to go against Kawhi Leonard or Andre Iguadala in 5 of his finals appearances, i don't know that he would be 6-0

Something I wrestle with is that Lebron could do more with less. If you think Jordan could have taken 2 of those Cavs teams (2005 and 2015) to the Finals then I can't help you.

Jordan was the absolute perfect fit for Phil Jackson's triangle, and Scottie and role players were pretty good too. I think that system maximized Jordan's greatness. It certainly maximized Kobe's.

Jordan only made the finals with 1 coach. Same with Kobe. Lebron has made the Finals with 4 different coaches and maybe a 5th after this year.

Lebron is undeniably not the shooter/all around scorer that Jordan was (obviously Lebron plays SF, not SG). I kind of think that people just look at this fact and make the declaration of Jordan over Lebron based on this. Some days I do too.

Idk...it's fun to think about.

[Willikn]

Originally Posted by tlm7995

Something I wrestle with is that Lebron could do more with less. If you think Jordan could have taken 2 of those Cavs teams (2005 and 2015) to the Finals then I can't help you.

The flip side to this is that no Jordan led team was ever upset (beaten by a lesser seed) in the post season. Never mind failing to reach the Finals despite twice having the best record in the NBA. Both the Spurs and Mavs were underdogs to the Heat in the Finals as well, although we don't look at it that way now.

All of the comparisons become skewed given that MJ played 11 full seasons (not counting the Wizards thing) versus LeBron's 17 and counting.

[bberns]

Originally Posted by tlm7995

Jordan was just leaps and bounds ahead of his peers. The distance between him and the guys he played against is greater than the distance between Lebron and his peers.

The natural order for any league/industry is for competition to increase over time. If Jordan had to go against Kawhi Leonard or Andre Iguadala in 5 of his finals appearances, i don't know that he would be 6-0

Something I wrestle with is that Lebron could do more with less. If you think Jordan could have taken 2 of those Cavs teams (2005 and 2015) to the Finals then I can't help you.

Jordan was the absolute perfect fit for Phil Jackson's triangle, and Scottie and role players were pretty good too. I think that system maximized Jordan's greatness. It certainly maximized Kobe's.

Jordan only made the finals with 1 coach. Same with Kobe. Lebron has made the Finals with 4 different coaches and maybe a 5th after this year.

Lebron is undeniably not the shooter/all around scorer that Jordan was (obviously Lebron plays SF, not SG). I kind of think that people just look at this fact and make the declaration of Jordan over Lebron based on this. Some days I do too.

Idk...it's fun to think about.

A genuinely thoughtful post. You sir, are a true BO unicorn.

[Boomer105]

92-93 Bulls 57-25
93-94 Bulls 55-27

09-10 Cavs 61-21
10-11 Cavs 19-63

Nuff said

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by Boomer105

92-93 Bulls 57-25
93-94 Bulls 55-27

09-10 Cavs 61-21
10-11 Cavs 19-63

Nuff said

OK Boomer

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by tlm7995

Will you define what "peak" is? I'm not trying to be a condescending jerk and I'm not looking to pick it apart. I'm just curious what you think.

I’ll take a shot at this

Jordan played 15 years ok

2 with the wizards when he was old and volunteering
1 season he barely played due to injury
1 season he came back on the March/April border after being away for a year and a half and not even playing

So he had 11 full seasons

We will count all those as his peak, just when he was out there fully and ready

He averaged over 30 a game and that average went up in the playoffs. He has the record for both. And mind you, it wasn’t 138-122 every night. Late 90s finals games were atrocious and like first one to 90 wins.

In 11 years he won 10 scoring titles
5 mvps
6 finals mvps
6 titles 6-0
Defensive player of the year
All nba 1st team 10x
All nba 2nd team 1x
All nba defense 1st team 9x

So you look at a peak where he was all nba first team and defense first team for a decade

You say he was heads and shoulders above his peers.

On the periphery when he was young he was against Magic, Bird, Isiah

In his winning prime he was against Malone, Barkley, Olajuwon, Shaq, Penny, Drexler, Payton/Kemp, Stockton, Ewing, Robinson

On the back part he dealt a little with Duncan, Kg, and Kobe

So if you want to make that claim that he’s far and away better that’s fine but then throw names like Kawhi and iggy at me it feels a little crazy

Kawhi is a beast. Durant is a beast.

Do I think Jordan could take Kevin love and beat the warriors? No

Do I think Jordan quits against Boston and stacks with wade and bosh and then proceeds to go to the finals 4 times in a row and go 11-12 against three different non warrior teams? Also no

Laughing about it’s just basketball when they lose, also no

And I have evidence of that. Against that same franchise in 86 Jordan had 0 chance of winning a first round series. He’d been hurt. They wanted him to tank.

He went to Boston with gene banks and Dave corzine and scored 112 points in the first two games. They lost. But he emptied the clip.

He always tried. He always gave it everything on both ends.

That is what people mean when they say peak.

Just like Bird.

Right or wrong when you let Zach Lowe do a deep dive and analyze every number imaginable it might not show this, bit for the people that watched it, for their entertainment dollar, they gave you the impression that every game mattered and that their life was on the line.

Some people myself included are loyal to that and appreciate that.

What I get lost on with the Lebron comparison is how the argument always changes

For example

I always hear winning is a team game

But then I see posts like above saying Lebron left and they were a disaster but Jordan left and their record was basically the same

It sounds like when it benefits Lebron winning is all about lebron

Never mind other factors. Never mind the bulls went 34-31 in 94-95 without Jordan then 13-4 when he came back or 72-10 the next season

A lot of these talks get spun. It’s like the news media. It’s just spin.

Now can an argument be made for 17 years of A grade Lebron over 11 years of A+ Jordan and whatever else he gave those other 4? Sure it can

But Lebrons best is not as good as Jordan’s best in my opinion. I’ve never seen that.