PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc

[pete2345]

So what is being done about this whole grading scandal? Maybe it's been said in here somewhere but way to much to look through to find it. Are the altered cards still being graded and sold? It hasn't seemed to slow any of the big auction houses down.There still listing big ticket items. Other than the few people that have been compensated for buying altered cards and sending them back. Will anything come from all of this?

[Pink Pussycat]

Originally Posted by pete2345

So what is being done about this whole grading scandal? Maybe it's been said in here somewhere but way to much to look through to find it. Are the altered cards still being graded and sold? It hasn't seemed to slow any of the big auction houses down.There still listing big ticket items. Other than the few people that have been compensated for buying altered cards and sending them back. Will anything come from all of this?

Well, that's certainly the question of the day. We are all wondering the same thing. Since it's pretty obvious that PSA wants to shove it under the rug (and do absolutely nothing about it, other than to deflect and deny) it will be up to the FBI to determine the fate of the card doctors, shady dealers, and inept/incompetent/criminal/complicit TPGs.

It's become obvious that a majority of Collectors are too blinded or too naive to make their own decisions, and prices realized have not been impacted much (if at all) to this point. The combination of naivete and greed is something that cannot easily be fixed. So we are left to hoping Law Enforcement does the right thing by shutting down these corrupt and criminal entities. They would seem to be our only hope for change.

[Bo Hunter]

The TPGs are not going to get shut down simply because they cannot tell the difference between whether a piece of cardboard was cut by machine #1 or machine #2. I'll wager my right testicle on that. They will likely just have to ramp up their grading game to pay closer attention when looking out for trimmed cards, which will increase prices for submissions. If it turns out that there is someone on the inside taking bribes, then that person or persons will probably be the one who takes the biggest fall in all of this scandal (I'd guess moreso than the trimmers themselves even).

The guys operating machine #2 (the trimmers) will likely be facing some fraud charges which may or may not stick. I don't think it will be an easy case for the prosecution to win despite the clear as day evidence that they have in fact been trimming cards.

As far as PWCC and similar entities go, I have no idea. That will obviously depend on their precise level of involvement and how complicit they are in all this. If they are in fact just a front for one big trimming operation (as many here believe to be the case), then they'll probably go down in flames. But if they can demonstrate that they are a legit operation that just gets taken advantage of by the trimmers, then they'll be fine.

[pip]

Bo Hunter,

Wondering if you've also been diagnosed with some form of hypergraphia because your frequent hobby musings here are just completely specious. But I suspect you already know that. Perhaps you could explain why you continue to defend PWCC, however oblique your reasoning.

Edited to add -- specifically this:

But if they can demonstrate that they are a legit operation that just gets taken advantage of by the trimmers, then they'll be fine.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by pip

Bo Hunter,

Wondering if you've also been diagnosed with some form of hypergraphia because your frequent hobby musings here are just completely specious. But I suspect you already know that. Perhaps you could explain why you continue to defend PWCC, however oblique your reasoning.

Edited to add -- specifically this:

Obviously he discredits or ignores what both of us have pointed out repeatedly, namely that Brent has admitted his culpable knowledge going back at least a decade.

Selective myopia or something.

At this point both of us should just ignore him, really.

[3124508 on COMC]

PSA sub:

43732705 1970 TOPPS FOOTBALL CARDS #180 JOHN UNITAS NM-MT+ 8.5 First Sale: 10/23/2019 $104.50 eBay (pwcc_auctions)
43732706 1970 TOPPS BASEBALL CARDS #350 ROBERTO CLEMENTE NM-MT 8
43732707 1971 TOPPS BASEBALL CARDS #5 THURMAN MUNSON ALL-STAR ROOKIE EX-MT 6 First Sale: 10/16/2019 $68.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions)
43732708 1971 TOPPS BASEBALL CARDS #630 ROBERTO CLEMENTE NM-MT 8 First Sale: 10/16/2019 $999.99 eBay (pwcc_auctions)
43732710 1973 TOPPS FOOTBALL CARDS #487 KEN STABLER MINT 9 First Sale: 10/23/2019 $915.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions)
43732711 1974 TOPPS BASEBALL CARDS #215 AL KALINE NM-MT 8 First Sale: 10/16/2019 $62.57 eBay (pwcc_auctions)
43732712 1974 TOPPS FOOTBALL CARDS #219 RAY GUY MINT 9 First Sale: 10/23/2019 $510.84 eBay (pwcc_auctions)
43732713 1975 TOPPS BASEBALL CARDS #228 GEORGE BRETT NM-MT 8
43732714 1975 TOPPS BASEBALL CARDS #660 HANK AARON MINT 9
43732715 1975 TOPPS MINI BASEBALL CARDS #500 NOLAN RYAN NM-MT 8 First Sale: 10/16/2019 $157.50 eBay (pwcc_auctions)
43732716 1976 TOPPS BASEBALL CARDS #98 DENNIS ECKERSLEY MINT 9
43732717 1976 TOPPS FOOTBALL CARDS #148 WALTER PAYTON NM-MT 8
43732718 1976 TOPPS FOOTBALL CARDS #148 WALTER PAYTON NM-MT+ 8.5
43732719 1978 TOPPS BASEBALL CARDS #20 PETE ROSE GEM MT 10 First Sale: 10/16/2019 $244.94 eBay (pwcc_auctions)
43732720 1951 BOWMAN BASEBALL CARDS #253 MICKEY MANTLE VG-EX 4
Sir Francis Drake cards...Not sure if in this sub or not:
43732721
43732722
43732723
43732724

Originally Posted by corndog

This altered Moser/Huigens purchase from July 31, 2018 is now a current live auction offer from PWCC. This was literally the first newly graded card that I checked from the current PWCC listings...


PSA Cert #43732714

1975 Topps Hank Aaron #660

Value gain of currently over $1,900.00

This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from Ebay seller PWCC as a PSA 8 for $307.58 on July 31, 2018.
PWCC link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1690923



Same card is now currently listed for sale in a live auction by PWCC as a PSA 9 and is currently bid up to over $2,000.00+.
Ebay link: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1975-Topps-...QAAOSwPuVdvyvD



Yellow circles are print, fiber, or chipping identifiers.
Red box identifies a colored in hickey in the black solid drop shadow of the team name.

[ken161]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

PSA sub:

43732705 1970 TOPPS FOOTBALL CARDS #180 JOHN UNITAS NM-MT+ 8.5 First Sale: 10/23/2019 $104.50 eBay (pwcc_auctions)
43732706 1970 TOPPS BASEBALL CARDS #350 ROBERTO CLEMENTE NM-MT 8
43732707 1971 TOPPS BASEBALL CARDS #5 THURMAN MUNSON ALL-STAR ROOKIE EX-MT 6 First Sale: 10/16/2019 $68.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions)
43732708 1971 TOPPS BASEBALL CARDS #630 ROBERTO CLEMENTE NM-MT 8 First Sale: 10/16/2019 $999.99 eBay (pwcc_auctions)
43732710 1973 TOPPS FOOTBALL CARDS #487 KEN STABLER MINT 9 First Sale: 10/23/2019 $915.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions)
43732711 1974 TOPPS BASEBALL CARDS #215 AL KALINE NM-MT 8 First Sale: 10/16/2019 $62.57 eBay (pwcc_auctions)
43732712 1974 TOPPS FOOTBALL CARDS #219 RAY GUY MINT 9 First Sale: 10/23/2019 $510.84 eBay (pwcc_auctions)
43732713 1975 TOPPS BASEBALL CARDS #228 GEORGE BRETT NM-MT 8
43732714 1975 TOPPS BASEBALL CARDS #660 HANK AARON MINT 9
43732715 1975 TOPPS MINI BASEBALL CARDS #500 NOLAN RYAN NM-MT 8 First Sale: 10/16/2019 $157.50 eBay (pwcc_auctions)
43732716 1976 TOPPS BASEBALL CARDS #98 DENNIS ECKERSLEY MINT 9
43732717 1976 TOPPS FOOTBALL CARDS #148 WALTER PAYTON NM-MT 8
43732718 1976 TOPPS FOOTBALL CARDS #148 WALTER PAYTON NM-MT+ 8.5
43732719 1978 TOPPS BASEBALL CARDS #20 PETE ROSE GEM MT 10 First Sale: 10/16/2019 $244.94 eBay (pwcc_auctions)
43732720 1951 BOWMAN BASEBALL CARDS #253 MICKEY MANTLE VG-EX 4
Sir Francis Drake cards...Not sure if in this sub or not:
43732721
43732722
43732723
43732724

Since the first sales of these cards were just a few weeks ago, I would assume this particular card doctor had been outed when this was submitted? Third party submission perhaps, pardon the pun.

They keep getting by the goalie. Say it ain't so, Joe.

[Bo Hunter]

Originally Posted by pip

Bo Hunter,

Wondering if you've also been diagnosed with some form of hypergraphia because your frequent hobby musings here are just completely specious. But I suspect you already know that. Perhaps you could explain why you continue to defend PWCC, however oblique your reasoning.

Edited to add -- specifically this:

Originally Posted by pspa123

Obviously he discredits or ignores what both of us have pointed out repeatedly, namely that Brent has admitted his culpable knowledge going back at least a decade.

Selective myopia or something.

At this point both of us should just ignore him, really.

I'm not sorry if my agnostic approach to the evidence upsets you. As you conveniently ignored, I prefaced my above statement about PWCC by saying if they are guilty of running a full scale trim shop, they will likely go down in flames.

Why would I possibly accept either of you at your word? I can't even trust pip to accurately represent my own viewpoint on a completely meaningless topic. This guy still trolls me by saying I thought all Bird/Magic rookies had print marks on them despite himself even quoting me CLEARLY saying otherwise. All pip does is follow me around, putting words in my mouth every time I post and making personal attacks. His words hold negative sway.

You want to point me to some actual evidence, fire away, I'll read it with an open mind. But I'm a scientist, and I don't believe in anything without sufficient evidence. I'm not going to arrive at your conclusions simply because you've told me to do so. Especially after witnessing pip's complete disregard for the truth in other matters first hand.

The best evidence I've seen to date in these threads is "card X was purchased by an eBay account that we believe is linked to PWCC and it was later resold in a better holder for more money", and accusations that a trimmed card was in their possession both before and after it was trimmed. Don't get me wrong, it's not looking great for PWCC, and when there's smoke, there's usually fire. But feel free to ignore me if my continued agnosticism on this topic offends you. If you have some real, hard evidence to support your claims, then please, point me to them. But until then, I'll continue to toe the agnostic line until the FBI concludes the real investigation.

Also, why not leave out the personal attacks? What value or joy are you getting out of those? It's actually pretty sad. You do realize that it makes you look bad, not me, right? I tell you I have autism, and then just a few posts later, you attack my mental health. Well played sir, well played.

[pspa123]

Yeah I'm lying Bo. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. I'm making up the emails and conversations. No, the problem is YOU haven't read anywhere close to the full exposition of this fraud, and if you had you would have seen emails reproduced and discussions recounted. Here and on 54. It's not up to me to dig them out for you. You want to make pronouncements, do the work yourself before you make them. Who cares what you have seen in the fraction you've happened to read? As I said, it's like someone walking through two rooms at the Louvre and saying, I haven't seen any evidence there are Da Vincis here. It's beyond absurd.

A scientist, by the way, doesn't draw conclusions from a fraction of the available evidence. Just sayin.

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by ken161

Since the first sales of these cards were just a few weeks ago, I would assume this particular card doctor had been outed when this was submitted? Third party submission perhaps, pardon the pun.

They keep getting by the goalie. Say it ain't so, Joe.

All the cards I checked were sold by PWCC in other slabs to Whitman111

[pip]

Bo Hunter,

You're completely delusional. Pspa123 is right. Best to ignore you. Nothing you write is of any value. You are completely unable to weigh evidence or judge things in a reasonable, rational manner...autistic or not.

Really, you're the worst kind of troll and you don't even realize it.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by pip

Bo Hunter,

You're completely delusional. Pspa123 is right. Best to ignore you. Nothing you write is of any value. You are completely unable to weigh evidence or judge things in a reasonable, rational manner...autistic or not.

Really, you're the worst kind of troll and you don't even realize it.

I haven't found a poster this annoying and obstinate since SCR was insisting PSA's guarantee somehow didn't apply to marketplace purchasers.

[Bo Hunter]

Originally Posted by pspa123

You want to make pronouncements, do the work yourself before you make them.

A scientist, by the way, doesn't draw conclusions from a fraction of the available evidence. Just sayin.

I'm not the one making pronouncements though. You guys are. This is my point when I say "how can I trust you guys at your word when you can't even accurately represent what I've said?" Go back and read my phrasing. It is agnostic. Repetitively agnostic. I'm not coming to conclusions. I keep saying over and over again "if this, then that". Yet somehow, you guys keep prescribing words to me that I never said. Why are you doing this? When have I ever said "PWCC is completely innocent"?

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by Bo Hunter

I'm not the one making pronouncements though. You guys are. This is my point when I say "how can I trust you guys at your word when you can't even accurately represent what I've said?" Go back and read my phrasing. It is agnostic. Repetitively agnostic. I'm not coming to conclusions. I keep saying over and over again "if this, then that". Yet somehow, you guys keep prescribing words to me that I never said. Why are you doing this? When have I ever said "PWCC is completely innocent"?

Straw men and misdirection galore. I am done with you. Ignore the evidence that has been presented as you wish. I don't need to be agnostic because I know what happened and have posted what I know multiple times in an effort to inform people. If you don't want to be informed, don't be.

[Bo Hunter]

Originally Posted by pip

Bo Hunter,

You're completely delusional. Pspa123 is right. Best to ignore you. Nothing you write is of any value. You are completely unable to weigh evidence or judge things in a reasonable, rational manner...autistic or not.

Really, you're the worst kind of troll and you don't even realize it.

...

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by pspa123

I haven't found a poster this annoying and obstinate since SCR was insisting PSA's guarantee somehow didn't apply to marketplace purchasers.

he has no idea what you are talking about. Pip is "new", remember? lol

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by Bo Hunter

My ability to process information has been intensely studied by academicians my entire life. I'm an autistic savant with tourrete's syndrome. As superdan pointed out earlier in his attempt to "dox" me, my nickname is "rainman" for a reason. I was tutoring college calculus students before I was old enough to drive a car. Make fun of me all you want, but I was the little kid walking up to my math professors 30 minutes into a 2 hour final exam turning in my answers while everyone else was still stuck on the problems printed on the first page. You couldn't even begin to fathom what it's like to be able to process information at the level I'm capable of despite the fact that you're a relatively bright guy in some respects.

You are modest too, that's refreshing.

[base set]

Keep on keepin' on, Bo. Criticism strengthens arguments, ultimately. Too many Yes-Men weaken them. This board is doing a wonderful job in all directions on this.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by Bo Hunter

My ability to process information has been intensely studied by academicians my entire life. I'm an autistic savant with tourrete's syndrome. As superdan pointed out earlier in his attempt to "dox" me, my nickname is "rainman" for a reason. I was tutoring college calculus students before I was old enough to drive a car. Make fun of me all you want, but I was the little kid walking up to my math professors 30 minutes into a 2 hour final exam turning in my answers while everyone else was still stuck on the problems printed on the first page. You couldn't even begin to fathom what it's like to be able to process information at the level I'm capable of despite the fact that you're a relatively bright guy in some respects.

Which is why I directed you to the BGS/Black Label/Joe Clemons thread. It is a data-driven thread which has gone cold. Perhaps your skill set could find patterns where others did not and you could breathe some life back into that investigation.

Otherwise suit yourself and just clog up this thread with your with beef with pip.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by pete2345

So what is being done about this whole grading scandal? Maybe it's been said in here somewhere but way to much to look through to find it. Are the altered cards still being graded and sold? It hasn't seemed to slow any of the big auction houses down.There still listing big ticket items. Other than the few people that have been compensated for buying altered cards and sending them back. Will anything come from all of this?

Eventually there will be so many card doctors and altered cards in slabs that slabbed card prices will come down.

[corndog]

Originally Posted by Bo Hunter

My ability to process information has been intensely studied by academicians my entire life. I'm an autistic savant with tourrete's syndrome. As superdan pointed out earlier in his attempt to "dox" me, my nickname is "rainman" for a reason. I was tutoring college calculus students before I was old enough to drive a car. Make fun of me all you want, but I was the little kid walking up to my math professors 30 minutes into a 2 hour final exam turning in my answers while everyone else was still stuck on the problems printed on the first page. You couldn't even begin to fathom what it's like to be able to process information at the level I'm capable of despite the fact that you're a relatively bright guy in some respects.

Sounds like you are a prodigy.

You haven't done well processing this thread and others though.

I would ask that you please stop derailing this thread with your thoughts.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

Eventually there will be so many card doctors and altered cards in slabs that slabbed card prices will come down.

when???

[pip]

Originally Posted by Bo Hunter

My ability to process information has been intensely studied by academicians my entire life. I'm an autistic savant with tourrete's syndrome. As superdan pointed out earlier in his attempt to "dox" me, my nickname is "rainman" for a reason. I was tutoring college calculus students before I was old enough to drive a car. Make fun of me all you want, but I was the little kid walking up to my math professors 30 minutes into a 2 hour final exam turning in my answers while everyone else was still stuck on the problems printed on the first page. You couldn't even begin to fathom what it's like to be able to process information at the level I'm capable of despite the fact that you're a relatively bright guy in some respects.

So I was somewhat close when I guessed hypergraphia. Similar pathology. Makes sense. You still have no idea how to effectively process the written word.

[Bo Hunter]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

he has no idea what you are talking about. Pip is "new", remember? lol

You mean the guy who signed up here 2 months before me that constantly berates me for being too new to know anything? The guy whose entire existence on this site can only be found within just a few select threads, all of which pertain to the trimming scandal? On day 1, he "discovers" this thread and somehow just never leaves it? The guy who fights anyone disagreeing with him on any topic except for this one?

All anyone has to do is take a look at his post history and it's clear as day that this isn't his first rodeo here. I don't know if he's a PBM or just someone's second account, but his post history certainly doesn't add up to someone who just discovered this site for the first time.

Meanwhile, I get accused daily of being a PBM by people who think it's impossible for a noob to discover the multi-quote button and ignore list features lol.

[Bo Hunter]

Originally Posted by pip

So I was somewhat close when I guessed hypergraphia. Similar pathology. Makes sense. You still have no idea how to effectively process the written word.

Coming from the guy who thinks "very common" is equivalent to "always"...