PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc - Page 70

ThoseBackPages · 05-26-2019, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chezball

GL on them using FB, where they give your info to every tom, dick and harry.

that's the point, to get the word out there, isnt it?

not sure how much you know about how Major League Baseball Organization structure works, but for sports CARDS, this place is the Gulf Coast League Yankees. FaceBook is the New York Yankees

Dan and 312 are the guys that started this, they need to "be promoted" to the Major Leagues.

What they are doing here is great, but its time to go bigger

LSUNatChamps · 05-26-2019, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chezball

What happened to the owner of the Chamberlain is disgusting.

Can you provide more background, or did you mean the Russell?

pspa123 · 05-26-2019, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

that's the point, to get the word out there, isnt it?

not sure how much you know about how Major League Baseball Organization structure works, but for sports CARDS, this place is the Gulf Coast League Yankees. FaceBook is the New York Yankees

Dan and 312 are the guys that started this, they need to "be promoted" to the Major Leagues.

What they are doing here is great, but its time to go bigger

Be patient. People who read this, and 54 where this stuff is crossposted, have contacts. It may take time but word will spread.

mjohnatgt · 05-26-2019, 09:56 AM

I'm hoping that PSA will have a statement in June, right after the May 31 Set Registry annual awards deadline. Just think if they were to decertify 1000 high grade cards right before the deadline and guys in the 3rd position in a set were immediately promoted to first. That would cause major waves and the collectors would really notice.

chezball · 05-26-2019, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LSUNatChamps

Can you provide more background, or did you mean the Russell?

I screwed up, the russell.

Morgoth · 05-26-2019, 09:56 AM

Honestly this is worse than i first thought and i am seriously questioning anything i have bought from pwcc over the yeard

tconte · 05-26-2019, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pspa123

Be patient. People who read this, and 54 where this stuff is crossposted, have contacts. It may take time but word will spread.

You mean like the t206s with the bad signatures? How's that working out?

LOL

KhalDrogo · 05-26-2019, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

I'm hoping that PSA will have a statement in June, right after the May 31 Set Registry annual awards deadline. Just think if they were to decertify 1000 high grade cards right before the deadline and guys in the 3rd position in a set were immediately promoted to first. That would cause major waves and the collectors would really notice.

We wish. PSA would never take that drastic of a step. Too harmful to the business.

mjohnatgt · 05-26-2019, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tconte

You mean like the t206s with the bad signatures? How's that working out?

Well, as SGC closed their autograph authentication shop, it let to real change in the industry.

rngrdanny22 · 05-26-2019, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tconte

You mean like the t206s with the bad signatures? How's that working out?

LOL

I think that market was a little to niche for widespread attention. Bad, yes.

This scheme is crossing modern/vintage/everything in between. This will leave more of a crater IMO.

cking · 05-26-2019, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chezball

What happened to the owner of the Russell is disgusting.

What card are you talking about?

rngrdanny22 · 05-26-2019, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cking

What card are you talking about?

Couple pages back.

chezball · 05-26-2019, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cking

What card are you talking about?

pg. 68

6celtics33 · 05-26-2019, 10:20 AM

I am the person that owned the BVG 7 Bill Russell

I primarily collect modern (80s and 90s) in 9.5 slabs. I am very picky and particular about what I collect but my eye for what makes a card a 5, 6, 7, or 8 is not very good. I am good about spotting over or undergraded cards in the gem mint realm.

So as my user name suggests with the number 6, I am a celtics fan and wanted a russell. I'm obviously not going to get a 9.5 on it so I picked one with great eye appeal.

I fell in love with that card. I traded MandLcards who owned it before me a kings ransom for it. The centering was unbelievable.

Now, I also wondered why it was in a bvg holder because as we all hear psa is king of vintage. I'm a bgs collector but I can't really defend or have the knowledge to go to war over beckett's vintage skills.

When I received it I was happy with it. I kept it for awhile. As my attention turned more and more toward building my Michael Jordan 90s pc, as many of you are probably aware, that gets expensive. I began looking for things to unload to turn into more MJ's.

My understanding of the pwcc high end and pq designations were that they were based on eye appeal. Eye appeal on vintage largely resting on centering.

So I thought to myself that I had a lock candidate for that.

Now, I was skeptical because I have seen many times where Brent or whoever writes the descriptions writes a love story about a psa card and then lists an equal grade bgs one very basically as though it is nothing.

So I reached out to Brent about it. I have consigned to him before. I have reported issues of cards in his auctions before and he has always responded quickly and taken action and I felt good about our relationship in as much as I knew him what little bit that I did. I showed him a pic and told him what I was after and inquired about how and who reviews the cards. He told me he would personally review it and that he would be excited to see it in person and couldn't really make a claim about whether it would or would not qualify until he had it in person. (I thought that was fair)

Now, as far as the rules go I had been told that once a card hits the preview, it is in that auction and could not be pulled. I've had two cards go unpaid in my previous submissions and they are always relisted. They do not send stuff back to people as far as I'm aware. Having said that I did notice an MJ card in the preview that WAS pulled before this auction started so maybe that rule has changed or maybe it was just an altered one that they found and pulled or maybe different rules for different people I don't know.

So the point to me sending it was there was an ultra stars gold mj 9.5 in auction with all 9.5 and 10 and I was determined to get it. I packed up the Russell and a bunch of other cards to send to cover the cost of the MJ should I win.

During the run up to the auction I asked Brent multiple times about it and if I remember correctly and I could be wrong but I think that he had it during the National and it was when they said they were going to be displaying some nice pieces there for people to see before that next round. I'm not sure if it made it to the National or not.

To skip to the point, he does it by sport so when he got around to the basketball he told me it did not qualify. He had written a nice description which he then even made better for me. He told me it was a nice piece but that he found the wrinkle (s) (1 or 2) and that it wouldn't grade above a psa 5 because of that. He also said that people will wonder why a card like that is in a bvg holder. Evidence to back that up is TBP up above asking that very question.

I personally did not see or notice any wrinkles myself. This was before their ultra zoom images. Eye appeal wise, I felt like this was as nice a 7 as you could get. It looked like a 9 if you just held it out and looked at it.

However as mentioned vintage is not my specialty and I think I probably had some bias drilled into my head about bvg not knowing what they were doing combined with the fact that I trusted Brent and just assumed that if he sees them then they are there.

So I let it go with the nice description. Felt like a punch in the gut this morning to see it posted.

What sickens me the most is that everyone jumps on psa and says they are the standard in grading vintage. Brent said people would wonder why it was in a BVG holder and assume something is wrong with it. But it was PSA who graded it high AFTER it was apparently altered.

So I don't know why PSA gets the leadership nod there. Not saying BVG is any better but it seems like it was more accurately graded there than now.

I reached out to Brent. I am very aggravated about this to say the least.

On top of that, I did not even win the ultra stars gold 9.5 so it was kind of all pointless.

I hope the winner of the psa 7.5 sees this and gets their money back.

I should also add that I am not a profiteer who looks to squeeze every penny out of the hobby. Not judging just not why I collect cards. I like high grade cards for my ocd nature but I have never submitted a card for grading. I sent one card one time to bgs to get a centering bump and I was unsuccessful. Cost me $300 with insurance and fees and didn't accomplish anything so that was my first and last try with that nonsense.

Sorry for the long rant, trying to answer questions that I saw.

Yes I am pissed
Not sure what I can do about it
Thinking about quitting for good

6celtics33 · 05-26-2019, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superdan49

You'd probably be second-guessing yourself, "Gee, maybe I did miss a wrinkle or two." You'd probably think the consignor was perhaps a little too scrupulous, but many folks would likely still let the card run to completion.

exactly

KhalDrogo · 05-26-2019, 10:28 AM

Not a rant at all! Please keep up updated on Brent’s response. Appreciate you taking the time to post that information.

ThoseBackPages · 05-26-2019, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

I hope the winner of the psa 7.5 sees this and gets their money back.

Yes I am pissed
Not sure what I can do about it
Thinking about quitting for good

i am sorry this has happened to you (or anyone), you are a valuable contributor here (not that that makes a difference, just saying)

the best thing you can do is take this to the masses, post about it on FaceBook, tag him.

get the word out to the money people

LSUNatChamps · 05-26-2019, 10:32 AM

Thank you for sharing your story. Regardless of one's feelings about BVG for vintage, I do find it very concerning how easily Brent was willing to pump PSA, particularly given the nature of the PWCC/PSA advertising/marketing relationship, but even more so now that we have seen the sheer volume of trimmed cards going through the PSA and PWCC pipeline.

Morgoth · 05-26-2019, 10:37 AM

Thanks 6celtics33 i can 10000% tell you are a collector who was taken advantage of just trying to build there collection. I have sold cards prior to auctions just to lose out and it feels awful. To get this kind of sucker punch to go along with that is just awful.

Brent taking advantage of his collector base is shameful

hxcmilkshake · 05-26-2019, 11:09 AM

Idk maybe I'm dense and not getting it, 6celtics33 why did you care about the sticker? But otherwise man that's crazy Brent cares about nothing but the $.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

cking · 05-26-2019, 11:09 AM

I am not quite following on the Russell.

Are you saying that PWCC listed it with wrinkles on purpose, even though it had no wrinkles so whitman could win it for a low price and then trim it and resell it?

Basically trying to scare away others from bidding because of the wrinkle issue?

Do you think the whole thing was a set up by PWCC and whitman? Like they were in on it together?

Or did PWCC just list it with wrinkles on accident and whitman just happened to win it?

I am confused

GatorPie · 05-26-2019, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cking

I am not quite following on the Russell.

Are you saying that PWCC listed it with wrinkles on purpose, even though it had no wrinkles so whitman could win it for a low price and then trim it and resell it?

Basically trying to scare away others from bidding because of the wrinkle issue?

Do you think the whole thing was a set up by PWCC and whitman? Like they were in on it together?

Or did PWCC just list it with wrinkles on accident and whitman just happened to win it?

I am confused

I took it as Brent deliberately keeping the price as low as possible so it could be bought and flipped, yes.

The stickers, as I understand them, are for EYE APPEAL - not necessarily that the card is undergraded. Hence, any wrinkles on the reverse should have been irrelevant. If any card deserved a "high end" designation for eye appeal, it was that Russell card.

The whole thing is nuts.

superdan49 · 05-26-2019, 11:15 AM

1952 Topps Look 'N See #132 Henry VIII PSA 6.5 to PSA 8

Sold on 9/28/2018 as a PSA 6.5 by PWCC to whitman111 (Gary Moser) for $26
Consigned to PWCC and sold on 3/27/2019 as a PSA 8 for $128.05
Value gain of $102.05

Please note: I will now be including dollars and cents in the sales figures. My previously-stated figures were all rounded the the nearest dollar.

This is not a lucrative trim, but obviously it shows that Moser will trim anything for profit. This was uncovered only because it was in the same PSA submission batch that included the trimmed PSA 8 Queen Elizabeth II, which you can view here. It is only three serial numbers after that Queen card.

The left edge shows a distinct trim, as shown by the bright green rectangles. The image fibers and print spots on the card's reverse demonstrate the PSA 6.5 and the PSA 8 are one and the same, as seen in the third image below.

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1755288

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1936741

cking · 05-26-2019, 11:19 AM

I think somehow, some way.............I dont know how but it is high time people start demanding some answers from PSA.

How to go about that, I dont know. There has to be a way to get them to respond.

If you post on their social media accounts do they instantly remove it?

Rucchin · 05-26-2019, 11:26 AM

Assuming the Russell had wrinkles, and assuming both cards above are the same, the wrinkles either “disappeared” or PWCC omitted that fact in the second auction description.

05-26-2019, 10:28 AM	#1741
KhalDrogo Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 41,325	Not a rant at all! Please keep up updated on Brent’s response. Appreciate you taking the time to post that information. __________________ I love PSA!

05-26-2019, 11:15 AM	#1748
superdan49 BODA Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 4,272	1952 Topps Look 'N See #132 Henry VIII PSA 6.5 to PSA 8 Sold on 9/28/2018 as a PSA 6.5 by PWCC to whitman111 (Gary Moser) for $26 Consigned to PWCC and sold on 3/27/2019 as a PSA 8 for $128.05 Value gain of $102.05 Please note: I will now be including dollars and cents in the sales figures. My previously-stated figures were all rounded the the nearest dollar. This is not a lucrative trim, but obviously it shows that Moser will trim anything for profit. This was uncovered only because it was in the same PSA submission batch that included the trimmed PSA 8 Queen Elizabeth II, which you can view here. It is only three serial numbers after that Queen card. The left edge shows a distinct trim, as shown by the bright green rectangles. The image fibers and print spots on the card's reverse demonstrate the PSA 6.5 and the PSA 8 are one and the same, as seen in the third image below. https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1755288 https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1936741 __________________ Cardboard Detective Emeritus superdan49@protonmail.com — Anonymous Tip-line

05-26-2019, 09:56 AM	#1729
mjohnatgt Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Niceville, FL Posts: 14,717 mjohnatgt mjohnatgt	I'm hoping that PSA will have a statement in June, right after the May 31 Set Registry annual awards deadline. Just think if they were to decertify 1000 high grade cards right before the deadline and guys in the 3rd position in a set were immediately promoted to first. That would cause major waves and the collectors would really notice.

05-26-2019, 09:56 AM	#1731
Morgoth Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 3,924	Honestly this is worse than i first thought and i am seriously questioning anything i have bought from pwcc over the yeard

05-26-2019, 10:20 AM	#1739
6celtics33 Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 8,278	I am the person that owned the BVG 7 Bill Russell I primarily collect modern (80s and 90s) in 9.5 slabs. I am very picky and particular about what I collect but my eye for what makes a card a 5, 6, 7, or 8 is not very good. I am good about spotting over or undergraded cards in the gem mint realm. So as my user name suggests with the number 6, I am a celtics fan and wanted a russell. I'm obviously not going to get a 9.5 on it so I picked one with great eye appeal. I fell in love with that card. I traded MandLcards who owned it before me a kings ransom for it. The centering was unbelievable. Now, I also wondered why it was in a bvg holder because as we all hear psa is king of vintage. I'm a bgs collector but I can't really defend or have the knowledge to go to war over beckett's vintage skills. When I received it I was happy with it. I kept it for awhile. As my attention turned more and more toward building my Michael Jordan 90s pc, as many of you are probably aware, that gets expensive. I began looking for things to unload to turn into more MJ's. My understanding of the pwcc high end and pq designations were that they were based on eye appeal. Eye appeal on vintage largely resting on centering. So I thought to myself that I had a lock candidate for that. Now, I was skeptical because I have seen many times where Brent or whoever writes the descriptions writes a love story about a psa card and then lists an equal grade bgs one very basically as though it is nothing. So I reached out to Brent about it. I have consigned to him before. I have reported issues of cards in his auctions before and he has always responded quickly and taken action and I felt good about our relationship in as much as I knew him what little bit that I did. I showed him a pic and told him what I was after and inquired about how and who reviews the cards. He told me he would personally review it and that he would be excited to see it in person and couldn't really make a claim about whether it would or would not qualify until he had it in person. (I thought that was fair) Now, as far as the rules go I had been told that once a card hits the preview, it is in that auction and could not be pulled. I've had two cards go unpaid in my previous submissions and they are always relisted. They do not send stuff back to people as far as I'm aware. Having said that I did notice an MJ card in the preview that WAS pulled before this auction started so maybe that rule has changed or maybe it was just an altered one that they found and pulled or maybe different rules for different people I don't know. So the point to me sending it was there was an ultra stars gold mj 9.5 in auction with all 9.5 and 10 and I was determined to get it. I packed up the Russell and a bunch of other cards to send to cover the cost of the MJ should I win. During the run up to the auction I asked Brent multiple times about it and if I remember correctly and I could be wrong but I think that he had it during the National and it was when they said they were going to be displaying some nice pieces there for people to see before that next round. I'm not sure if it made it to the National or not. To skip to the point, he does it by sport so when he got around to the basketball he told me it did not qualify. He had written a nice description which he then even made better for me. He told me it was a nice piece but that he found the wrinkle (s) (1 or 2) and that it wouldn't grade above a psa 5 because of that. He also said that people will wonder why a card like that is in a bvg holder. Evidence to back that up is TBP up above asking that very question. I personally did not see or notice any wrinkles myself. This was before their ultra zoom images. Eye appeal wise, I felt like this was as nice a 7 as you could get. It looked like a 9 if you just held it out and looked at it. However as mentioned vintage is not my specialty and I think I probably had some bias drilled into my head about bvg not knowing what they were doing combined with the fact that I trusted Brent and just assumed that if he sees them then they are there. So I let it go with the nice description. Felt like a punch in the gut this morning to see it posted. What sickens me the most is that everyone jumps on psa and says they are the standard in grading vintage. Brent said people would wonder why it was in a BVG holder and assume something is wrong with it. But it was PSA who graded it high AFTER it was apparently altered. So I don't know why PSA gets the leadership nod there. Not saying BVG is any better but it seems like it was more accurately graded there than now. I reached out to Brent. I am very aggravated about this to say the least. On top of that, I did not even win the ultra stars gold 9.5 so it was kind of all pointless. I hope the winner of the psa 7.5 sees this and gets their money back. I should also add that I am not a profiteer who looks to squeeze every penny out of the hobby. Not judging just not why I collect cards. I like high grade cards for my ocd nature but I have never submitted a card for grading. I sent one card one time to bgs to get a centering bump and I was unsuccessful. Cost me $300 with insurance and fees and didn't accomplish anything so that was my first and last try with that nonsense. Sorry for the long rant, trying to answer questions that I saw. Yes I am pissed Not sure what I can do about it Thinking about quitting for good

05-26-2019, 10:32 AM	#1743
LSUNatChamps Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 2,264 cfa10123 TakingStock	Thank you for sharing your story. Regardless of one's feelings about BVG for vintage, I do find it very concerning how easily Brent was willing to pump PSA, particularly given the nature of the PWCC/PSA advertising/marketing relationship, but even more so now that we have seen the sheer volume of trimmed cards going through the PSA and PWCC pipeline.

05-26-2019, 10:37 AM	#1744
Morgoth Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 3,924	Thanks 6celtics33 i can 10000% tell you are a collector who was taken advantage of just trying to build there collection. I have sold cards prior to auctions just to lose out and it feels awful. To get this kind of sucker punch to go along with that is just awful. Brent taking advantage of his collector base is shameful

05-26-2019, 11:09 AM	#1745
hxcmilkshake Member Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Apopka FL Posts: 11,515 hxcmilkshake	Idk maybe I'm dense and not getting it, 6celtics33 why did you care about the sticker? But otherwise man that's crazy Brent cares about nothing but the $. Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

05-26-2019, 11:09 AM	#1746
cking Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 16,263	I am not quite following on the Russell. Are you saying that PWCC listed it with wrinkles on purpose, even though it had no wrinkles so whitman could win it for a low price and then trim it and resell it? Basically trying to scare away others from bidding because of the wrinkle issue? Do you think the whole thing was a set up by PWCC and whitman? Like they were in on it together? Or did PWCC just list it with wrinkles on accident and whitman just happened to win it? I am confused

05-26-2019, 11:19 AM	#1749
cking Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 16,263	I think somehow, some way.............I dont know how but it is high time people start demanding some answers from PSA. How to go about that, I dont know. There has to be a way to get them to respond. If you post on their social media accounts do they instantly remove it?

05-26-2019, 11:26 AM	#1750
Rucchin Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: NJ Posts: 830	Assuming the Russell had wrinkles, and assuming both cards above are the same, the wrinkles either “disappeared” or PWCC omitted that fact in the second auction description.