A discussion of PWCC's interview among basketball collectors

[BruceS]

How in the world could we let someone like PWCC describe or set the rules for our hobby standards.
Who do they think they are? We , as a collector community should never accept this.
I'll never ever buy again only one card of them.
Oh well, I bought a card once that I had to return as it was trimmed to death....

[Deadshot]

Originally Posted by exclusively_nba

I don't really do much with vintage at all, and it seems like modern basketball mainly has issues with patch faking and trimmed cards. Neither of which would fall under his definition of conservation, right? I might be naive to what kind of alterations modern cards have undergone, but does that seem to be about right from what you guys are all seeing?

There's also been some talk of people using McGuire's car wax to work on scratches in Chrome and Prizm cards.

[exclusively_nba]

Originally Posted by Deadshot

There's also been some talk of people using McGuire's car wax to work on scratches in Chrome and Prizm cards.

This sucks...
Knowing is better than not knowing, but man...

[jj2]

Originally Posted by pspa123

Before and after pictures are not evidence

It's one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

[Morgoth]

It sounds like he is going to try and get Burge and his posse to pay for the cards being returned as trimmed.

Good luck with that Bret, you better get your lawyers on the phone.

[ninjacookies]

Car wax is a very gray area. Because not all waxes are 'pure' waxes...and I'm sure a lot that do that procedure don't actually have a clue what their product actually contains...nor care.

Most over the counter waxes are actually combination wax/cleaners...meaning they're aggressive with minor abrasives to take off such a thing as a UV protectant layer on a card. Why is this significant? Because over time, these same cards, though having a better physical appearance, will most likely be prone to greening/fading/discoloring.

Food for thought.

[imbluestreak23]

I have never used wax, but will likely give it a try one day.

[jmeryllman]

Very interested in a card tonight, then I realized it is PWCC. I didn't bid. Not sure if it was "conserved".

[ilikenicecards]

Originally Posted by exclusively_nba

Part of what makes this so weird is that his definition of conservation is something along the lines of "restoration that doesn't leave any evidence of restoration", which does kind of make sense - or at least, I understand the point behind it. If all you have to look at is the card in front of you, if you don't see any evidence of tampering, you wouldn't give it the "altered" designation. However, if you found photo matched evidence of the card in a different condition previously, then I really don't understand how you could continue to call it "conserved" and keep it with a number grade instead of the "Authentic Altered" grade, much less have no reservations about selling it with no disclosure. That part of the conversation was what I had the biggest issue with.

Am I way off, or is the vintage card market the primary market that will run into cards being washed or treated to remove stains, having corners rebuilt, creases flattened out, and other things like that? I don't really do much with vintage at all, and it seems like modern basketball mainly has issues with patch faking and trimmed cards. Neither of which would fall under his definition of conservation, right? I might be naive to what kind of alterations modern cards have undergone, but does that seem to be about right from what you guys are all seeing?

It's his bogus definition so he can continue selling trimmed cards, as long as they passed BGS or PSA, he doesn't care, it's his business. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[Jasondr91]

Originally Posted by DajuanWagner

The trick is to not get caught. I am more concerned with his idle threats at the end of the infomercial. Any idea what he plans to do if he catches anyone (other than himself) altering cards???

He’s mad and angry. He wants the crooks writing checks. That sounds all warm and fuzzy, kinda like free college and health care. But it ain’t happening.

[MVBSportsCards]

Couldn't listen to more than a few minutes of that interview. I wont be using pwcc in the future. Will pwcc give refunds for purchases that were made months ago? Years ago?

[boxbreak]

I would not be going near pwcc or probstein anymore

[COMCMax]

Originally Posted by boxbreak

I would not be going near pwcc or probstein anymore

Yea, hard pass. Still think it gets brushed under the rug unfortunately.

[ballhawkdawk]

Originally Posted by DajuanWagner

The trick is to not get caught. I am more concerned with his idle threats at the end of the infomercial. Any idea what he plans to do if he catches anyone (other than himself) altering cards???

This is my biggest takeaway from the podcast. I'm trying to keep an open mind here and give Brent/PWCC a chance to out the bad guys. Brent has a proven history of shady dealings with shilling and also with the acquisition, altering, and re-selling of that one Dimaggio card that magically turned into a PSA 7. I'm sure there is plenty of other unsavory PWCC behavior that I'm simply unaware of, but I know enough to form my own opinion of PWCC as a company and Brent as a person. Integrity is not their top priority if there is money to be made.

To date, I'm not sure what, if anything, PWCC has done to eradicate shilling/altering. BUT... today is a new day. I support Brent in his crusade to eradicate the shilling/trimming and further hope that he is able to make the responsible parties pay for their actions. As the saying goes... talk is cheap. I think PWCC has an opportunity to really clean up the hobby, but I won't believe it until I see it. Otherwise that little speech at the end was nothing more than the same kind of speech you hear from a politician.

Given what kind of info PWCC has access to, there is no reason that at least one guilty party isn't outed as a result of the Harden/Curry alterations alone. 123456COMC put together a comprehensive list from PWCC auctions with proof of alteration for every single card. If PWCC can't reference that list and then cross reference who submitted the cards and find a pattern, then their credibility remains in the gutter. This whole thing begins with PWCC eliminating bad guys. Until then, it's just noise.



There are some great posts in this thread on how cards differ from comics, art, whatever else. These are areas where it sounds like Brent has a limited understanding in that not all conservation/alteration is viewed the same across hobbies. I personally have very little knowledge on comic book grading, art restoration and the documentation that comes with it, etc., so I can't entirely fault Brent for being equally ignorant, although apparently PWCC has spent the past year coming up with these tenets.

Brent also mentioned that PWCC is trying to move the market/hobby forward with these tenets, but that maybe this isn't the best idea if the hobby isn't on board. So far, the hobby isn't on board, and it's not just BO. The hobby is made up of people on these forums... Blowout is a very real and accurate representation of the market. If erasing a pencil mark (just an example) is deemed unacceptable by majority of the hobby, but Brent thinks it's no big deal because in some other hobby it's no big deal, then he's only hurting his own reputation. These methods of conservation/alteration may be acceptable to Brent and acceptable in other markets, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be disclosed, which is the crux of the argument made by most people against this "conservation" stance. 99.99% of collectors will want the card that never had scribble on it than the one that was scribbled on and had the scribble removed. Anything beyond blowing dust off the card or a surface wiping to remove fingerprints or smudges is something that should be disclosed, provided there is proof of the alteration/conservation. Spooning out a corner may not be a big deal to Brent, but it is a big deal to many in the hobby. PWCC sells cards for sellers in this hobby to other buyers in this hobby. Doing things that aren't widely accepted by the hobby only serves to hurt PWCC.

I'm willing to give PWCC a chance, but it's their move. I will not be bidding on PWCC auctions until they produce at least one bad guy.

[AbraCalabro]

Do you remember the long winded line of B.S. that BNC posted in the altered LBJ RPA thread? This is PWCC doing the same thing, they're guilty of allowing this stuff to pass and they're trying to save their business by referring to alterations as conservation so that they can keep ripping people off and so that they don't have to out the trimmers.

[Jasondr91]

Originally Posted by ballhawkdawk

This is my biggest takeaway from the podcast. I'm trying to keep an open mind here and give Brent/PWCC a chance to out the bad guys.

To date, I'm not sure what, if anything, PWCC has done to eradicate shilling/altering. BUT... today is a new day. I support Brent in his crusade to eradicate the shilling/trimming and further hope that he is able to make the responsible parties pay for their actions. As the saying goes... talk is cheap. I think PWCC has an opportunity to really clean up the hobby, but I won't believe it until I see it. Otherwise that little speech at the end was nothing more than the same kind of speech you hear from a politician.

I'm willing to give PWCC a chance, but it's their move. I will not be bidding on PWCC auctions until they produce at least one bad guy.

I agree here. And as Dajuanwagner said...its sounds like their stance is as long as one can alter and you can't detect the card has been altered....fair game. It is amusing that we "the tabloid side" of the forums as he referred to, hear them talk a big game about being angry at scammers, not one mention of the blatant shilling done on their sales? Maybe the lemmings can present us another 3000 word reply full of data and examples where his information is 100% accurate. Especially the parts where 99% of PWCC ending prices are not only legit, but are paid for. You know, if you find it on the internet, that means it's true!

[RiceFor3]

Originally Posted by BruceS

How in the world could we let someone like PWCC describe or set the rules for our hobby standards.
Who do they think they are? We , as a collector community should never accept this.
I'll never ever buy again only one card of them.
Oh well, I bought a card once that I had to return as it was trimmed to death....

Yes. This. Exactly this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by Jasondr91

Especially the parts where 99% of PWCC ending prices are not only legit, but are paid for.

The Jordan PWCC price model projection algorithm never lies. Pinky swear.

[theLUCKYshow]

That wasn't easy to get through but I watched it all. I agree with pretty much everyone in this thread in regards to conservation. Brent's definition of conservation is a scary one as not only does it send a "it ain't cheating if you don't get caught" vibe but it's also encouraging the hobby to engage with card doctors who do this type of work and more. This is as slippery a slope as I can think of in our hobby.

And the project he was talking about... sounds like a great idea but I still dont quite get who's running it. Isn't Superdan working on something like this?



Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Deadshot]

That was one of my major takeaways - who is going to run this site? And how exactly is Brent gonna "make the pain flow?" I recorded a pod about the whole thing last night...just have to edit it over the next day or two.

[Mountaineer]

You know the website is going to be ran by someone within PWCC. Dan was already working on this idea and has even mentioned it on the forums before but of course, PWCC will try to claim they are the first to think of it.

[ballhawkdawk]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

The Jordan PWCC price model projection algorithm never lies. Pinky swear.

This is why people on here stay suspicious. The Jordan price projection thing was made by a guy selling us on the legitimacy of PWCC due to the built in control of factors such as shipping, image quality, listing duration, feedback score, etc. I get that and it makes sense. However, it also makes sense why many are suspicious of only using PWCC listings given the current reputation PWCC auctions have in regards to shilling. Couple that with the fact that the guy who made it owns high end Jordans and all but one of the projections was higher than the previous sale price, overshooting on a number of them, and it can look like a well thought out attempt to influence the Jordan market in an upward direction.

I’m not trying to change the subject from PWCC, but moreso pointing out that even the more prominent PWCC supporters on here have some question marks regarding their intentions. Many people on here have been around longer than I have and have seen some pretty clever scams take place. Many of those same people also have flawless reputations in the hobby, meaning no one will ever point the finger at them and accuse them of being dishonest within the hobby. My whole point is that I’m very skeptical... of PWCC, people supporting PWCC, etc. I reserve the right to change my mind, and PWCC has an opportunity to earn back my business if they start making the pain flow, but until then things look shady at best.

[corndog]

Over the past five years and more some or most of the biggest hobby sins have gone through PWCC.

Knowingly?

Time will tell.

[COMCMax]

Originally Posted by Deadshot

That was one of my major takeaways - who is going to run this site? And how exactly is Brent gonna "make the pain flow?" I recorded a pod about the whole thing last night...just have to edit it over the next day or two.

I need to watch the video. This needs a GIF.

[Jasondr91]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

The Jordan PWCC price model projection algorithm never lies. Pinky swear.

But but, the mysterious guy went by “C” and had something like “HoJ” on his license plate. Those were some crazy negative camber on the rear tires of the Prius.