PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc

[superdan49]

I agree that PSA is not "in on it," but their entire raison d'être can be called into question if they cannot detect alterations on either vintage or modern cards. They've failed to do the one thing that they are supposed to: ensure the cards they evaluate are authentic and unaltered.

As for PWCC, if they want to be a major force in the marketplace going forward, they are going to have to shed any and all connections to the shady characters who have provided them with much of their auction inventory over the years.

[Scottish Punk]

Originally Posted by superdan49

I agree that PSA is not "in on it," but their entire raison d'être can be called into question if they cannot detect alterations on either vintage or modern cards. They've failed to do the one thing that they are supposed to: ensure the cards they evaluate are authentic and unaltered.

As for PWCC, if they want to be a major force in the marketplace going forward, they are going to have to shed any and all connections to the shady characters who have provided them with much of their auction inventory over the years.

I think you and I agree, the issue with PSA isn't conspiracy, it is incompetence. They are just shoveling too many cards out the door too quickly. Graders of varying expertise are just giving cards are cursory look/grade and then moving on. The numbers don't add up when you breakdown cards per day per grader.

[HarryLime]

I think there's a threshold number where there's just always going to be trimmed cards in slabs. No matter how well trained the graders are, they're only human. The point of contention is what number is that threshold number? I don't think we're even close to seeing it with what we have now.

Keeping in mind that we're not talking about a random assortment of hacks getting past the graders; we're talking about the most experienced and successful card doctor probably ever. PSA hasn't changed the speed with which they grade cards just because the intake has increased and they haven't rushed to train new people to alleviate the workload either so I don't believe it's necessarily incompetence. There's a decent chance that our worst nightmare is true -- some forms of alteration may not be detectable at all if done right.

Arthur

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

I think there's a threshold number where there's just always going to be trimmed cards in slabs. No matter how well trained the graders are, they're only human. The point of contention is what number is that threshold number? I don't think we're even close to seeing it with what we have now.

Keeping in mind that we're not talking about a random assortment of hacks getting past the graders; we're talking about the most experienced and successful card doctor probably ever. PSA hasn't changed the speed with which they grade cards just because the intake has increased and they haven't rushed to train new people to alleviate the workload either so I don't believe it's necessarily incompetence. There's a decent chance that our worst nightmare is true -- some forms of alteration may not be detectable at all if done right.

Arthur

At least not detectable without much more sophisticated equipment and much more time than you're going to get on a TPG submission. As to your first point, I suspect that iceberg is real real big.

[superdan49]

1948 Leaf #2 Babe Ruth PSA 3.5 to PSA 4

Purchased as a PSA 3.5 from PWCC by whitman111
Sold as a PSA 4 by www.stevenovella.com (yes, his eBay ID is a URL)

Here we have whitman111 purchasing a card from PWCC, trimming it (look at the brown stain in the lower right hand corner. It is cut off in the PSA 4 example), and then sending it to seller www.stevenovella.com. This is a relationship that merits further exploration.


http://www.vintagecardprices.com/car...50&w=525&h=993




http://www.vintagecardprices.com/car...4&w=960&h=1695




This trim netted Moser a mere $336, a far cry from the almost $35,000 he gained from the Luckman card shown earlier.

[CardsCollectMe]

Wow. All this stuff has literally destroyed any trust I may have had in PSA graded cards being unaltered. It's literally their business model, and they have completely and utterly failed at it.

[NoleinJax]

Are there any people here that seriously bid on this card and would have no issue with the work that was done to it at the price it sold for?

[tconte]

Bummer on the Ruth. I was hoping it would have been confined with PWCC. But it
makes me wonder on all sellers that deal with consignments at this point.

[smanzari]

[QUOTE=superdan49;14663084]

Purchased as a PSA 3.5 from PWCC by whitman111
Sold as a PSA 4 by www.stevenovella.com (yes, his eBay ID is a URL)



[URL="[/QUOTE]


Wow, looking at his listed items really makes you wonder on all/most- I didn’t see one that didn’t look small in its holder



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by CardsCollectMe

Wow. All this stuff has literally destroyed any trust I may have had in PSA graded cards being unaltered. It's literally their business model, and they have completely and utterly failed at it.

I think you're being a little melodramatic. To put things in perspective: there are over 28,000 PSA graded cards sold on eBay every week. There are more than 6,500 PSA graded cards that sell for more than $75 every week on eBay. That's just eBay and those are just what's sold.

Arthur

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by superdan49

Here we have whitman111 purchasing a card from PWCC, trimming it (look at the brown stain in the lower right hand corner.

Don't forget the cleaning and possible corner build-up he performed.

[corndog]

1888 N162 Goodwin Champions Cap Anson

Card sold through Heritage Auction as an SGC-1.5 on Nov. 16, 2018: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...son-1974243543

Same card sold on Ebay for $5,800 by PWCC as a PSA-4 on April 9, 2019: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1888-N162-G...p2047675.l2557

This card has undergone a cleaning and a color addition and should have never been graded by PSA. The alterer intentionally left white spots and added three ink spots to the upper left border in an effort to throw off researchers. Black ink would not have appeared during a cleaning but I suppose they could have occured during the color touch-up. The back has had type nearly removed from the cleaning.

PSA certification number 42885908- Who was the submitter?

As a PSA-4 and an SGC-1.5 - fronts:



As a PSA-4 and an SGC-1.5 - backs:



Closeup of areas of color additions PSA-4 ang SGC-1.5:

[corndog]

Originally Posted by superdan49

1948 Leaf #2 Babe Ruth PSA 3.5 to PSA 4

Purchased as a PSA 3.5 from PWCC by whitman111
Sold as a PSA 4 by www.stevenovella.com (yes, his eBay ID is a URL)

Here we have whitman111 purchasing a card from PWCC, trimming it and then sending it to seller www.stevenovella.com. This is a relationship that merits further exploration.

The Paul Campbell 1948 Leaf was also purchased by Whitman111 and sold by www.stevenovella.com

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by corndog

The Paul Campbell 1948 Leaf was also purchased by Whitman111 and sold by www.stevenovella.com

For reference, here is a link to Corndog's original post on the trimmed Campbell card:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...86&postcount=2



Its sale via Steve Novella is confirmed via Vintagecardprices.com:
http://www.vintagecardprices.com/car...7&w=954&h=1692




The question now is: Is Steve Novella accepting these cards from whitman111 (Gary Moser) on consignment or is he sending them to PSA for Moser. I would assume if Moser is as infamous as all the Net54 guys here claim, that PSA would flag his name.

[HarryLime]

I think a more likely scenario with the Anson is that it wasn't paper loss but rather foreign objects stuck to the front of the card that came off during the soak that cleaned up the back. Recoloring is really, really hard to do and get it by a trained grader with their resources at their side. Modern inks are different than what was used 130 years ago and it's not a case of walking into Staples and just being really careful with the application.

Arthur

[JMANIA]

Whitman 111 we are going to put you in the Inaugural Class of PSA Card Doctoring Hall of Fame. Additional names to following, including Bill Matro who will have his own corner in honor of him helping build PSA through fraud.

I assume PWCC will have to get rid of the archives on his site with old sales. It is hurting him more than helping him. I believe the researchers could find the same issues with other large ebay consignees and auction houses.

Since the PSA guarantee does not apply to the original submitter, PSA should be hiring a couple of you as consultants to help catch the cards before the original card doctor/submitter sells the card and places PSA on the hook.

[HarryLime]

Let's get one thing straight, I am NOT a Net54 guy. That place is a bastion for childish drama and chaos. Please don't lump me in with the prewar board there.

Arthur

[JMANIA]

Originally Posted by corndog

1888 N162 Goodwin Champions Cap Anson

Card sold through Heritage Auction as an SGC-1.5 on Nov. 16, 2018: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...son-1974243543

Same card sold on Ebay for $5,800 by PWCC as a PSA-4 on April 9, 2019: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1888-N162-G...p2047675.l2557

This card has undergone a cleaning and a color addition and should have never been graded by PSA. The alterer intentionally left white spots and added three ink spots to the upper left border in an effort to throw off researchers. Black ink would not have appeared during a cleaning but I suppose they could have occured during the color touch-up. The back has had type nearly removed from the cleaning.

PSA certification number 42885908- Who was the submitter?

As a PSA-4 and an SGC-1.5 - fronts:



As a PSA-4 and an SGC-1.5 - backs:



Closeup of areas of color additions PSA-4 ang SGC-1.5:

My Gosh. The most disappointing one so far that this card even after being altered was graded with coloring.

[JMANIA]

The question now is: Is Steve Novella accepting these cards from whitman111 (Gary Moser) on consignment or is he sending them to PSA for Moser. I would assume if Moser is as infamous as all the Net54 guys here claim, that PSA would flag his name.[/QUOTE]

Novella merely was likely given the card to sell on consignment. He has a good reputation in terms I have never heard suspicion of him as a card doctor. Anyone that sells consignments can be dumped with stuff grading companies missed. I do not see it as his fault or at least hope not his fault.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

Let's get one thing straight, I am NOT a Net54 guy. That place is a bastion for childish drama and chaos. Please don't lump me in with the prewar board there.

Arthur

Fair enough, Arthur! There's less cynicism on Blowout anyway. #shotsfired

[corndog]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

I think a more likely scenario with the Anson is that it wasn't paper loss but rather foreign objects stuck to the front of the card that came off during the soak that cleaned up the back. Recoloring is really, really hard to do and get it by a trained grader with their resources at their side. Modern inks are different than what was used 130 years ago and it's not a case of walking into Staples and just being really careful with the application.

Arthur

Edit: If you look at the enlarged area of the largest paper loss you can still see the outline of the paper loss - sort of a colored in valley.
Edit #2: In the printing process (especially with coated stock which is what this is) it is not uncommon to have ink tack pull bits of the coating off as the sheet travels through the press blankets. The combination of blanket pressure, ink tack and poor quality paper can cause this. In printing we call the imperfections in paper slime holes. Slime holes pull off and eventually lead to paper trash on plates that lead to print spots (hickies). For the one sheet that has a paper coating pull off the result looks exactly like the card shown.
Without the card in hand the actual conclusion as to what caused the area of concern is speculation. The card has been altered regardless.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by JMANIA

Novella merely was likely given the card to sell on consignment. He has a good reputation in terms I have never heard suspicion of him as a card doctor. Anyone that sells consignments can be dumped with stuff grading companies missed. I do not see it as his fault.

I've heard others I trust attest to his honesty, but for the sake of his business, he needs to explain his relationship with Moser. More Whitman111/Moser stuff is likely to come up as sold through him and he needs to make a plan going forward on how to contact victims.

[JMANIA]

Originally Posted by superdan49

I've heard others I trust attest to his honesty, but for the sake of his business, he needs to explain his relationship with Moser. I feel more Whitman stuff is likely to come up as sold through him and he needs to make a plan going forward on how to contact victims.

I think at this point we need a card doctor list which pretty much should discourage the grading companies from dealing with them as well as people taking consignments from them. I am making my own list for my Inaugural PSA Card Doctor Hall of Fame.

[cking]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

Recoloring is really, really hard to do and get it by a trained grader with their resources at their side.

Arthur

Yea, ok...sure it is

[CMpunk13]

DELETE