$22.5k of Trimmed Harper 2012 Topps Heritage High Autos Sold via PWCC and Probstein

[Rooftop]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

Yes. There a four large trimmers in the hobby. Burge and assoc., SSI, and Jaimet are the first three. The fourth, who is probably #1 or #2 by magnitude, almost exclusively uses BGS, which means I can be 100% certain what cards are coming from his submissions using submission dates. I have compiled a stupid number of cards (>2000 right now) that he has submitted. Many can be proven to be trimmed. That, however, is just the tip of the iceberg. All the recent ones went though PWCC. Earlier, (2012-2014) he used Probstein more.

I can probably do that with PSA trimmers too because of the built-in sales records.

Bottom line is that if it sold though PWCC for the first time graded, it is probably trimmed.

And finally, that's why I said that PWCC will never release a list. It would easily be tens of thousands of cards.

[imbluestreak23]

Originally Posted by mrdallas

Knowing that PWCC has absolutely zero interest in disclosing cards that have been altered/restored even when presented with clear evidence. How can you be so comfortable buying from them? and....

Honest question, let's assume PWCC goes by the wayside and the trimmers must resort to selling on their own account. Do you fully expect EVERY altered card in a TPG slab to have a disclosure of "work" done to it including but not limited to:
-wiping surface
-being touched with panty hose
-soaking and rubbing
-scrubbing and rubbing
-spitting and rubbing
***now the extra good stuff known as "altering"
-trimming
-cutting
-rounding
-pressing
-whitening/blackening/yellowing/"shading"

Do you realistically believe that all of these issues will be disclosed by the new eBay brokers?

[mrdallas]

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

Honest question, let's assume PWCC goes by the wayside and the trimmers must resort to selling on their own account. Do you fully expect EVERY altered card in a TPG slab to have a disclosure of "work" done to it including but not limited to:
-wiping surface
-being touched with panty hose
-soaking and rubbing
-scrubbing and rubbing
-spitting and rubbing
***now the extra good stuff known as "altering"
-trimming
-cutting
-rounding
-pressing
-whitening/blackening/yellowing/"shading"

Do you realistically believe that all of these issues will be disclosed by the new eBay brokers?

Nope. But I would say that these new brokers probably will not be so "trusted" that people will buy from them blindly without questioning. PWCC and the majority of consignors are a haven for this type of activity. Hide behind the curtain so to speak. And let's see where this road leads.

If the trimmers/brokers had to use their own accounts it would be easier to decipher or at least call out the sellers to avoid.

If and I say If it turns out PWCC is in cahoots with the Trimmers, (I consider if they are aware who is trimming yet still allowing them to use their service without question or scrutiny) then that is a huge issue.

Let the trimmers be outted. If we knew who the seller of the Mantle was and they listed the card, they would be put on blast just like PWCC. And I imagine they wouldnt create a Tenant to defend the alteration..

[regularp]

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

Honest question, let's assume PWCC goes by the wayside and the trimmers must resort to selling on their own account. Do you fully expect EVERY altered card in a TPG slab to have a disclosure of "work" done to it including but not limited to:
-wiping surface
-being touched with panty hose
-soaking and rubbing
-scrubbing and rubbing
-spitting and rubbing
***now the extra good stuff known as "altering"
-trimming
-cutting
-rounding
-pressing
-whitening/blackening/yellowing/"shading"

Do you realistically believe that all of these issues will be disclosed by the new eBay brokers?

Everyone can be unhappy with how PWCC is handling this, but this issue begins with PSA and BGS. Those are the grading authorities of our hobby and their slabs are supposed to represent authenticity and whether or not a card has been altered.

Has there been a peep from either company about all of these exposed cards? Not that I've seen and that is the troublesome thing.

That's where the pitchforks and torches should be aimed, first and foremost.

[mfw13]

Originally Posted by regularp

Everyone can be unhappy with how PWCC is handling this, but this issue begins with PSA and BGS. Those are the grading authorities of our hobby and their slabs are supposed to represent authenticity and whether or not a card has been altered.

Has there been a peep from either company about all of these exposed cards? Not that I've seen and that is the troublesome thing.

That's where the pitchforks and torches should be aimed, first and foremost.

Agreed.

[gymratcards]

Originally Posted by regularp

Everyone can be unhappy with how PWCC is handling this, but this issue begins with PSA and BGS. Those are the grading authorities of our hobby and their slabs are supposed to represent authenticity and whether or not a card has been altered.

Has there been a peep from either company about all of these exposed cards? Not that I've seen and that is the troublesome thing.

That's where the pitchforks and torches should be aimed, first and foremost.

All are accomplices in my opinion. None exist without the other.

[GatorPie]

Originally Posted by regularp

Everyone can be unhappy with how PWCC is handling this, but this issue begins with PSA and BGS. Those are the grading authorities of our hobby and their slabs are supposed to represent authenticity and whether or not a card has been altered.

Has there been a peep from either company about all of these exposed cards? Not that I've seen and that is the troublesome thing.

No, there hasn't been a peep, and there isn't going to be.

Some have declared that they'll never buy from PWCC again, but I haven't heard a soul say they weren't ever going to buy a PSA graded card again.

[imbluestreak23]

Level of actions that should take place IMO:

Consigners:
-Stop consigning items from known trimmers. Card is a one off trimmed copy with a bunch of other clean cards? consignee gets the benefit of the doubt. Consigner listing items for a professional scissor man? Ban them. No need to out them publicly. This isn't medieval times where witches and leopards are stoned at the courthouse steps for the public to see. Ban them.
-That is literally all they should do because they are brokers and provide a service for convenience.

TPG:
-Gotta change the grading process to catch more cuts, that simple. Computers, tech, whatever. They hold the keys to the castle
-Ban accounts with certain level of rejections. We've talked exhaustingly how this won't help as trimmer's grandma can be the new address submitting, but whatever, it's low hanging fruit.

Trimmers:
-Don't know how to solve this one. Continually out them? Ruin their reputation? Victims prosecute? Been an issue for decades yet Burge et al still run freely

[dmanrico]

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

Level of actions that should take place IMO:

Consigners:
-Stop consigning items from known trimmers. Card is a one off trimmed copy with a bunch of other clean cards? consignee gets the benefit of the doubt. Consigner listing items for a professional scissor man? Ban them. No need to out them publicly. This isn't medieval times where witches and leopards are stoned at the courthouse steps for the public to see. Ban them.
-That is literally all they should do because they are brokers and provide a service for convenience.

TPG:
-Gotta change the grading process to catch more cuts, that simple. Computers, tech, whatever. They hold the keys to the castle
-Ban accounts with certain level of rejections. We've talked exhaustingly how this won't help as trimmer's grandma can be the new address submitting, but whatever, it's low hanging fruit.

Trimmers:
-Don't know how to solve this one. Continually out them? Ruin their reputation? Victims prosecute? Been an issue for decades yet Burge et al still run freely

Great post

[psd2k10]

Originally Posted by regularp

Everyone can be unhappy with how PWCC is handling this, but this issue begins with PSA and BGS. Those are the grading authorities of our hobby and their slabs are supposed to represent authenticity and whether or not a card has been altered.

Has there been a peep from either company about all of these exposed cards? Not that I've seen and that is the troublesome thing.

That's where the pitchforks and torches should be aimed, first and foremost.

great point. Pwcc is at fault but bgs and psa, the ones we trust and pay a premium too to catch this type of thing, is at fault BIG TIME! they are the ones not catching this stuff. very very sad thing for the hobby. Crazy.

[jppicks]

Trimming has been going on for awhile. It is just easier to catch the alterations now because you can verify auto's and serial #d cards and see when they have changed since they have an identifier. Trimming actually started in the late 90's and early 2000's though. I remember hearing about the rumors at the national card show in Anaheim, that was when the first PSA 10 93 Jeter SP was graded, a PSA 10 94 SP A Rod was graded and a few Jordan RC's. There is a few iconic cards that were trimmed and passed through because PSA and BGS had no idea and were ill equipped to handle this. Maybe today they could catch a 93 SP Jeter but I can assure you there is a ton of the high grade copies (9, 10) that are trimmed. Also there is a fair amount of PSA 10 Jordan Fleer rookies that are trimmed. Buyer beware on any high grade.....

[CMpunk13]

Originally Posted by jppicks

Trimming has been going on for awhile. It is just easier to catch the alterations now because you can verify auto's and serial #d cards and see when they have changed since they have an identifier. Trimming actually started in the late 90's and early 2000's though. I remember hearing about the rumors at the national card show in Anaheim, that was when the first PSA 10 93 Jeter SP was graded, a PSA 10 94 SP A Rod was graded and a few Jordan RC's. There is a few iconic cards that were trimmed and passed through because PSA and BGS had no idea and were ill equipped to handle this. Maybe today they could catch a 93 SP Jeter but I can assure you there is a ton of the high grade copies (9, 10) that are trimmed. Also there is a fair amount of PSA 10 Jordan Fleer rookies that are trimmed. Buyer beware on any high grade.....

Can these companies not buy a ruler?

[WizardofOz1982]

Originally Posted by jppicks

Trimming has been going on for awhile. It is just easier to catch the alterations now because you can verify auto's and serial #d cards and see when they have changed since they have an identifier. Trimming actually started in the late 90's and early 2000's though. I remember hearing about the rumors at the national card show in Anaheim, that was when the first PSA 10 93 Jeter SP was graded, a PSA 10 94 SP A Rod was graded and a few Jordan RC's. There is a few iconic cards that were trimmed and passed through because PSA and BGS had no idea and were ill equipped to handle this. Maybe today they could catch a 93 SP Jeter but I can assure you there is a ton of the high grade copies (9, 10) that are trimmed. Also there is a fair amount of PSA 10 Jordan Fleer rookies that are trimmed. Buyer beware on any high grade.....

Trimming predates the late 90s by at least a decade. I got into the Hobby with my dad in '85 or '86 and had my own tables at shows by '89 when I was 9. It was already very much discussed then as was bleaching, soaking, you name it.

[jppicks]

Originally Posted by WizardofOz1982

Trimming predates the late 90s by at least a decade. I got into the Hobby with my dad in '85 or '86 and had my own tables at shows by '89 when I was 9. It was already very much discussed then as was bleaching, soaking, you name it.

I believe prior there were alterations. But what I am referring to is the start by the people this thread is ultimately about. The people who were submitting 200-300 card submissions all high dollar cards mostly modern cards with almost all getting 9's and 10's including 10's on cards that had never been graded 10 before. When you would go through their submissions you would actually see 10-20 cards not graded due to evidence of trimming and they would just dump them on ebay to unsuspecting buyers.

[davidkahana]

Betsy,
Do I have to start a new dedicated thread regarding the MJ/Rodman you new was stolen and owned by Enrico Bonaldo you sold. Do we need to subpoena what Sohrob Farudi and Eric Bitz have vaulted with PWCC. You never once answered regarding the fact Jesse had the police report and no one from PWCC even called the Hermosa Beach PD for confirmation, nor Enrico? I look forward to being a thorn in the side of you, Brent, and Jesse and PWCC until you directly address this matter.
Ironic that Pryan gets his money back no questions and your response. You gave me and Enrico a #@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@ excuse on his stolen card and even sold it after PWCC knew in good faith it was stolen. Pryan has more money than I do. I promise you, PRYANTEXAS, doesn't have the time energy passion determination and persistence as I do to make things right.

https://twitter.com/TheFirmDK/status...AJVUP8FGegOQNQ


https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=682

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=685902

[mjohnatgt]

Interesting thread to bump. I don't believe either of the Huigens have posted on this board or even logged in since around the time they said "We're not going anywhere..."

[Mattsurewood]

Happy to have held on to my 8.5 all these years.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[vwnut13]

Originally Posted by Mattsurewood

Happy to have held on to my 8.5 all these years.

Agreed!

A quick snip or two and that's a 10!

[BRob1]

Originally Posted by davidkahana

Betsy,
Do I have to start a new dedicated thread regarding the MJ/Rodman you new was stolen and owned by Enrico Bonaldo you sold. Do we need to subpoena what Sohrob Farudi and Eric Bitz have vaulted with PWCC. You never once answered regarding the fact Jesse had the police report and no one from PWCC even called the Hermosa Beach PD for confirmation, nor Enrico? I look forward to being a thorn in the side of you, Brent, and Jesse and PWCC until you directly address this matter.
Ironic that Pryan gets his money back no questions and your response. You gave me and Enrico a #@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@ excuse on his stolen card and even sold it after PWCC knew in good faith it was stolen. Pryan has more money than I do. I promise you, PRYANTEXAS, doesn't have the time energy passion determination and persistence as I do to make things right.

https://twitter.com/TheFirmDK/status...AJVUP8FGegOQNQ


https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=682

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=685902

this was definitely surprising that:

1) even with a police report confirming the MJ/Rodman was stolen the local police said it was unrecoverable as the current owner bought it without knowing it was stolen. That goes in the face of what all the arm chair attorneys say here regarding recovering stolen property.

2) PWCC was made aware it was stolen property and proceeded to sell it anyway without making it known it was being contested as stolen. I’m sure potential bidders would have been interested in that info.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[auburn35]

The trimmed Harpers in the OP still appear to be in circulation, with active PSA certs.
PSA reviewed as good or the owners aren't aware?

[PuddleMonkey]

salt of the earth

[unclemonkey]

Like a drug dealer getting nabbed off the street corner...

There is always another to replace it.

The kingpin rarely is affected.

[davidkahana]

Blocked me on your insta becasue I asked you about this card?? You and Jesse are just the #@#@#@#@ing epitome of scum of the hobby!

https://www.psacard.com/cert/40942287

[davidkahana]

PWCC hired Jeffrey Lichtman to work with and cooperate with the FBI investigation. I spoke to him today. He is not happy I somehow obtained his cell phone number and asked me more questions than he would answer. He did make one clear statement. HE DOES NOT REPRESENT PWCC any longer. Think about that. The guy who got Gotti Jr. off and repped El Chappo recused himself from the PWCC mess for some reason???
Is CalvinDog on BO??

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...60#post1901360

[mjohnatgt]

He hasn't been PWCC's lawyer for over a year.