Issue with PSA

[mjohnatgt]

Because of their grade guarantee, the do have to insure for damage to the card while it's in your possession for the next X years if it gets damaged while in the slab, or is found to be trimmed or otherwise altered. That is why they increase the submission level on *some* high value cards after grading.
They've been doing this to PSA 10 SP Jeters and 86 Fleer Jordans for years. Surprised you've never heard of it. Yes, the declared value is supposed to be the "raw replacement value of a card in the same condition"; however, once it's graded, if you paid $8 for a card now worth $25,000, PSA assumes all the risk.

I don't believe Beckett has ever reimbursed you for damage after slabbing or detection of an uncaught alteration. PSA does, and will reimburse you the difference in value from what you paid to the current value of the diminished card. SGC used to, before they got bought out and no longer "Guaranty" the cards from the previous ownership group, despite that being the 'G' in SGC.

There are many previous threads (I can dig if you want on here and Net54) about PSA upgrading service levels after the fact, and in the ones I responded to, I said if I was ever lucky enough to be in that position, I would say "thanks!" and immediately tell them which credit card to add the charge to.

[SPauthentic84]

My own two cents when hearing stories like this, as well as the umm...lack of customer service at BGS as well as the fake/trimmed problem, the grades given out seem more biased and tainted than ever before

Nat, you are a smart guy...maybe you could build a niche grading company that focuses on not only the grade, but authenticity of cards.

Both PSA and BGS I think have hurt their reputation a lot

[AbraCalabro]

You know it's getting real bad when even the grading companies are trying to extort people for money on picture cards.

[gameissued]

Lets say you initially paid $1k for the card grading and it came back as alterred.. would they then refund you $925? I thought this is why they have customers assign their own declared values. I can maybe see an upcharge to the next level or two, but anything more is extortion.

So would grading a dinged up MJ Fleer RC would cost less than grading a mint copy? You pretty much have to grade it yourself first before actually having them grade it.

Anyways IMO that's absolutely absurd. They should have settled it way before any of the grading happened. Contacting you first and saying "Hey, this Duncan is a $40k monster, would you like to proceed? For $1k and you'll get it back tomorrow." You then have the option to kindly say "No thank you." Then just go with BGS for $50.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by natsturner

I'm actually not trying to slip them in. I actually paid the price under the Max Declared Value raw for these cards, just some of them were years ago and most of them there is no sales data recently to say they're higher. For example, on that LeBron I searched PWCC and eBay and couldn't find anything... So I went with what I paid for it (which I had in my records). Same on the Iverson, I pulled that card raw and couldn't find any legit auctions for it, and I bought similar star players in the set for under $100 at the time (Garnett, Ray Allen, Tim Duncan, Vince Carter, etc.).

I paid 2k for my 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle that graded a 6. Do you really think they are going to grade it as a 2k card for 75.00 and not charge the 3k for its actual value? You need to put a fair value on your cards of what they are worth today. Sending the 2k Duncan in as a 100 card has put you on their radar. If you had valued it properly and paid 75 to grade it, they wouldn't have said anything. Now you are looking at paying 1k to get the card graded.

[Thunderdunk]

Originally Posted by rats60

I paid 2k for my 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle that graded a 6. Do you really think they are going to grade it as a 2k card for 75.00 and not charge the 3k for its actual value? You need to put a fair value on your cards of what they are worth today. Sending the 2k Duncan in as a 100 card has put you on their radar. If you had valued it properly and paid 75 to grade it, they wouldn't have said anything. Now you are looking at paying 1k to get the card graded.

Since when does a grading company dictate value? Dont they just grade the card fairly and determine the condition of what it is?

[lietuvalabas]

I've been using that exact word for a few years on psa now "extortion" it 100% is. They literally go through the same process to grade that card vs any other one, should take no extra time or resources.

For instance when I had my dirk rookie masterpiece..of course id have rather had a great 90s card like that in a psa holder rather than Beckett but I wasn't looking to cut into profits when I sold because they deemed it worth more. Especially given that it's a 1/1 and value really shouldn't change much because as I like to use in my arguments to buyers who try to knock the card to get it cheaper "ok cool go find another one" so why should psa get more on a finite card?

I'm actually very shocked that you haven't ever run into this issue before. Given the cards I've seen you grade I would have thought for sure they would have tried extorting you before...also your name is well known around the hobby and I can't help but wonder if they are doing this because oh this guy has deep pockets he just bought a pmg green Jordan surely us extorting him for only a few grand will be a drop in the bucket for him and he'll just pay it. I certainly hope this isn't the case. And that Duncan is a great card and they are prone to damage but cmon a 9 is a solid grade but it's not a 10, this is pure extortion. I once had this conversation with some guys and they said "say you get a 10 on a mantle rookie and they whack you 2500 to keep slabbed...thats a good problem to have" what? No that's utter BS.

I say call their bluff and say break it out send it back I'll send to BGS. And tell them if this is how they wanna do business you can do that with the rest of your ungraded..just my 2 cents good luck Nat.

[rhigh2390]

Originally Posted by Thunderdunk

Since when does a grading company dictate value? Dont they just grade the card fairly and determine the condition of what it is?

Exactly. If you are using their grading service, they should treat a card the same when it comes to grading. Whether it's a 1997 Topps Shawn Bradley or a Jordan PMG green. How can they expect to be taken seriously if they get to choose the value a card has once it has been graded, if they are the ones doing the grading?

I totally get the different prices based on levels of service (2-day vs 30-day), but I don't even think the price to grade should be based on the card they're grading. That makes no sense.

As you said, their only job should be to simply grade the card fairly and determine the condition it is in.

[Supersuper]

I am disappointed abt the first card I send to psa grading. I choose their express service like 8 business days turnaround. Card was shipped on March 11 and arrived their PO Box at March 13th, took them about 10 days receiving the card and told me my card has been processed on 23th. Now it’s April 6th, and my card is still processing.... just imagine how slow their express service is, I would never use psa again.

[NickM]

Originally Posted by natsturner

Hi all -

As many know, I have over the years started to convert or send in much of my collection to PSA as I prefer the holder and such to BGS, but I've recently had some really frustrating experiences. For one, I just got my grades back on a bulk order and one of the cards I sent in was a 1998 Molten Metal Fusion /40 Tim Duncan. That card is certainly less than $2k raw, and the card got a 9 and they just came back and are trying to charge me $1k to keep it in the holder, lol! Feels like extortion honestly, they have my card and are dangling it in front of me to keep it in the grade it received. Granted I sent it in in the bulk service (as I didn't pay that much for it raw) at $8 each, and it probably should have been in the next level up ($20 for cards with Max Declared Value Per Item under $499) or at worst the $1999 and under $75 Max Declared Value Per Item level. It seems they've now made a habit of going through at least my orders and revising up cards they think are worth more and try to charge me more for those cards than the bulk rate.

On the Duncan specifically, the guy who emailed me from PSA referenced some obviously fake/shilled ebay auction from 2017 of a Duncan Fusion /40 at $19k which he found on Worthpoint I guess.

They also had some other ones wrong, like an Iverson 97-98 Autographics I sent in that they are trying to charge me $75 to grade (which would imply a Max Declared Value Per Item between $499 and $1999), as well as a 2003 LeBron Flair Final Edition Row 1 at $75. Both of which are under $499 raw I bet 95 out of 100 times on eBay.

Is it just me or this backwards? IMO it's really BS how they try and charge more to the collector depending on what grade the card gets vs. the true raw cost, and also how they're going about it (relying on shilled auctions, for example). I remember they first did this to me at the National a 5-6 years ago when I got my Kobe Green PMG graded. It got a 7. I originally paid $300 or $400 for the service which at the time was the appropriate level for the raw value at the time but then they came back to me and said "this card is now worth more in the PSA 7 holder, so you need to pay us $700 or we'll crack it out" (it may have been higher than $700 but that's how I remember it). I felt mad about that situation for months later, as the process isn't transparent and they just hold you up at the end.

On their website the service levels differ by "Max Declared Value Per Item", which to me means or should be defined as how much the card is worth raw before it's graded. Let's aside for a second the fact that their costs are the same for each card presumably, it's not like a $10k card costs more to grade than $100 card, it's the same service / holder / material / etc. Why are they trying to grab more money at the end before they ship cards to you depending on what grade they give the card?

I'm really struggling here as you can probably tell with this. It's not the money obviously, although anyone would be insane to pay those three prices for the three cards I mentioned above to have them in PSA holders. It's the process and integrity of the approach. I'm at the point where I'm not going to send in any more cards to them... . I want to like PSA as I like their product, I just don't like these recent examples. I certainly will pay more attention to making sure raw cards I include in bulk orders are under the Max Declared Value Per Item level for that level of service, but the vast majority of them I acquired years upon years ago. For example, that LeBron Final Edition Row 1, I looked it up and I paid $50 for it 10 years ago (it's not in great shape).

Anyone else feel this way / had similar experiences?

-Nat

Let's take these cards one by one. The Duncan is NOT "certainly less than 2K raw". A Shareef Abdur-Rahim /40 just sold raw for $250 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/1998-99-Fle...wAAOSw3AFcnMGC), and in February PWCC sold BGS 9s of Iverson/40 for $3600 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/1998-Skybox...sAAOSwBBRcYJGD) and Duncan /40 for almost $2300 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/1998-Skybox...p2047675.l2557) - and the Duncan was badly overgraded to get a 9 IMO.
Is it a 2K card raw? Quite possibly. Did you claim it was a $1K or $1500 card? No. You sent it in BULK.

How about an Iverson 97-98 Autographics?
Well, his 98-99 Autographics sold raw last month for $810 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/1998-1999-S...kAAOSwYbdcUOP6). Do you really think that the 97-98 goes for 40% less?

How about a LeBron 2003-04 Flair Final Edition Row 1? Well, one sold on ebay raw for about $680 in January (https://www.ebay.com/itm/2003-04-FLA...cAAOSwTc5b63Sx). The item sold by best offer - if you search sold listings for "lebron 2003-04" and sort by highest price first, it currently shows up at the bottom of page 2, and you can narrow down the price by the closest exact price items above and below it. His base Final Edition rookie /799 is a $125-$150 card on average raw. There is one comp sale. It is for well over $500.

You would lose your bet on both cards. Be happy BO doesn't allow betting here.

As for "the vast majority of them I acquired years upon years ago. For example, that LeBron Final Edition Row 1, I looked it up and I paid $50 for it 10 years ago", they are asking current value, not what you paid. I have LeBron rookies I got in 2003-04 from packs at MSRP. I don't get to value them at $3 because that was my cost for the pack. Your attempts to cheat PSA are why we cannot have nice things,

[GOLDPRIZM]

I love PSA and they are my preferred choice to send to. The one thing I never liked about them is the grading fees are based on the value of the card, but that's just how it is. I would have to agree with PSA sending that Duncan on a bulk order is a slap in the face. Even if you did buy this card years and years ago for xxx you know its worth much more now. I think this card raw should fall in the Express (max value 1999 or less). Trying to get it graded at any service less is just asking to be put on their radar.

I don't agree with them trying to charge $1000 after its graded but maybe they are playing dumb with you now??

Maybe you can show them this auction and agree to meet at the super express level for $200?? https://www.ebay.com/itm/1998-Skybox...p2047675.l2557

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Thunderdunk

Since when does a grading company dictate value? Dont they just grade the card fairly and determine the condition of what it is?

Always. It is their company, they set the rules. If you don't like them, use another company. If you play buy their rules, you can make a lot of money off grading your cards. They just want their cut. Try cheating them and don't be surprised when they ask for a bigger cut.

[lietuvalabas]

Originally Posted by rats60

Always. It is their company, they set the rules. If you don't like them, use another company. If you play buy their rules, you can make a lot of money off grading your cards. They just want their cut. Try cheating them and don't be surprised when they ask for a bigger cut.

its funny i actually sent in my 3 kobe e-x2000 rookies hoping to get just one 9 and they wound up giving me 2 9s and a 10. this was in the bulk, as it should be as the card raw is like $25-$40. the 10 got me like $2400 or so. just surprised they didnt try and extort me. funny thing about this was that my friend who was doing the sub just asked if i could scrape a few more cards together to help get to 100 cards. so i just grabbed cards that were sitting in a box for years that would look cool slabbed....guess i won

[Thunderdunk]

Originally Posted by rats60

Always. It is their company, they set the rules. If you don't like them, use another company. If you play buy their rules, you can make a lot of money off grading your cards. They just want their cut. Try cheating them and don't be surprised when they ask for a bigger cut.

LoL... Drink the Kool-Aid much? They are a grading company. Not supposed to have bias. Should just grade the card for what it truly is. Placing a arbitrary value so they can get "their cut" is unethical and not a even playing field. Period

If they want to charge more for service times or other upgrades so be it. But the current model is fraud.

[rhigh2390]

Originally Posted by rats60

Always. It is their company, they set the rules. If you don't like them, use another company. If you play buy their rules, you can make a lot of money off grading your cards. They just want their cut. Try cheating them and don't be surprised when they ask for a bigger cut.

I agree that it's their company/their rules, but they don't seem very ethical. I wonder sometimes how they deem certain cards a 10, but with the way they do things, you could probably just include a couple $100 bills with the card and a note saying "make this a 10" and they'd probably do it.

Again, it would be "their company/their rules" but unethical regardless.

[rj.cataldo]

I recently have been trending to psa as well. I don’t love their tiered model, but I also understand it. However it is terrible business practices to up charge based on the grades, if that is what they are doing. It’s no different then saying we won’t charge you if it doesn’t meet a minimum grade.

It creates an incentive for the company to gravitate to higher grades. Some low end cards can be multi thousand dollar cards in a 10. There is no way to definitively know how the card will grade out. It’s one thing to send multi thousand dollar cards at a lower end service, but another to extort a higher price while dangling a grade. For $1k I’d tell them to break it out and send it back.


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[KhalDrogo]

I’ve heard PSA used to not charge when the minimum wasn’t met.

Charging based on the value after the grade is assigned is a clear conflict of interest. Anyone with highly desired, low pop, high grade cards should be appalled at this practice.

[mjohnatgt]

You guys claiming that PSA is doing this to extort fail to remember that only like 20 of the thousands of 1993 SP Derek Jeters grade a 10. Since they now sell for $100K each, why isn't every 1993 SP Jeter grading a 10 yet? They could make millions in additional fees!!!
They are doing this because they are now on the hook for additional costs, nothing more, nothing less. It is not unethical. It is unethical to submit $2000+ cards for grading at bulk submission levels hoping that PSA doesn't notice.

Do you want them to charge every person who ever submits a 1986 Fleer Jordan at the tier for a PSA 10? Same with the 1993 SP Jeter? The market determines the market price, not PSA.

[slum22]

OP, I would say that you pushed your luck a little with putting some very high dollar cards into a bulk submission. If I read correctly, you put these cards into the $8 bulk submission category which has a declared value cap of $99. Even if there are no direct raw comps, I have to believe you knew the value of the Duncan was way more than $99 in raw form. Trying to slip a $1k+ card into a $99 and under sub is probably gonna raise some eyebrows. Have you talked to PSA yet about your options? I hope you are able to work it out with them. I do disagree with the idea that you could be charged for what the card is worth as a graded card. However, I do think being charged the proper grading service level for what the true market value of the card is ungraded (knowing that it is authentic and at that level of condition) is fair. Best of luck.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

You guys claiming that PSA is doing this to extort fail to remember that only like 20 of the thousands of 1993 SP Derek Jeters grade a 10. Since they now sell for $100K each, why isn't every 1993 SP Jeter grading a 10 yet? They could make millions in additional fees!!!
They are doing this because they are now on the hook for additional costs, nothing more, nothing less. It is not unethical. It is unethical to submit $2000+ cards for grading at bulk submission levels hoping that PSA doesn't notice.

Do you want them to charge every person who ever submits a 1986 Fleer Jordan at the tier for a PSA 10? Same with the 1993 SP Jeter? The market determines the market price, not PSA.

It’s unethical to upcharge based on final grade. The Jeter was simply an example to prove a point.

The most popular PSA group sub here now has to break down by DV <$199, <$499, and <$1999. How often am I going to get upcharged when my $100 raw card becomes a $200+ PSA 10, and they provide the service at the slower turnaround? I’m not okay with that.

[ThoseBackPages]

sorry to hear this happened. i guess you could use the other company, if you wanted.

[rj.cataldo]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

You guys claiming that PSA is doing this to extort fail to remember that only like 20 of the thousands of 1993 SP Derek Jeters grade a 10. Since they now sell for $100K each, why isn't every 1993 SP Jeter grading a 10 yet? They could make millions in additional fees!!!
They are doing this because they are now on the hook for additional costs, nothing more, nothing less. It is not unethical. It is unethical to submit $2000+ cards for grading at bulk submission levels hoping that PSA doesn't notice.

Do you want them to charge every person who ever submits a 1986 Fleer Jordan at the tier for a PSA 10? Same with the 1993 SP Jeter? The market determines the market price, not PSA.

I don’t think it’s that simple. What are the “additional costs” once these items are in a slab besides shipping insurance. I assume that PSA has some sort of umbrella insurance policy given the sheer volume of collectibles that roll through their facilities. Any given card, no matter the value likely has minimal impact on those costs.

Did they service this card in a express turnaround, consistent with the service charged for those express services, or do it on a bulk timeline and then try to charge more after graded? Did they do some “extra” diligence on the card to determine the grade. Insurance and shipping costs are likely to be higher, but no where near 1000, so it’s disingenuous to say it’s simply a cost reclamation.

Of course there is a limit to balancing the integrity of their grades and pricing. I don’t think anyone is implying psa 1s will end up gem mint, that would have far more damage to their brand than short term gains of the increased fees. But who is to say it doesn’t drive decisions between and 8/9 or a 9/10.

PSA does a lot to drive increases in prices across the board trough SMR, registry etc. - It’s good for the industry and good for them. I don’t agree that this particular card would be a bulk submission item, and It’s perfectly reasonable to charge more for faster service on higher value cards. But in my opinion trying to clawback fees after the grade is issued is bad practice. Had they contacted up front and said “we believe the value of this card warrants x tier, and we need those fees or won’t proceed with grading” that would make much more sense.


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[cardmole]

Originally Posted by rhigh2390

One of the many reasons I'm not a fan of grading. I'd much rather spend my money on another card I want than pay a guy to tell me what condition he thinks it is.

To each their own though.

Very well said!

[RogerGodahell]

Originally Posted by Thunderdunk

Since when does a grading company dictate value? Dont they just grade the card fairly and determine the condition of what it is?

Since Beckett started their price guide in the 80's.

[mjohnatgt]

Originally Posted by rj.cataldo

I don’t think it’s that simple. What are the “additional costs” once these items are in a slab besides shipping insurance.

Did you read my post #26 that outlines their additional cost? As yes, return insurance is a piece of it, but not the biggest piece. If you want them to insure the cards for ever (as they do with their grade guarantee), then you pay into that insurance within the submission fee. If you don't think PSA is liable if the cards get deemed fake or altered in the future, then don't use their service. It is an additional benefit for some, but if you think it's extortion, there are other companies. I hear GMA still exists, too.