LeBron Exquisite /99 - altered & damaged

[mondogenerator]

all caught up again.

this is just utterly depressing.

the whole lot of them (psa/bgs/pwcc/bnc/etc/etc) are just snakes n leeches.

[Siberian13]

People won't believe PWCC is dirty. So many will defend them like they do Probstein, Big Boyd, etc. They can do no wrong. They are just a bunch of nice guys.

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Agree with your comment on rookies. But whereas BNC is a business who is easy to investigate, I don’t even know who rookies is. Hard to get far with that.

I’m also not entirely convinced that sohrob is guilty of anything. He’s conveniently catching blame because he’s not around anymore. His exit from the hobby, as reported by BNC, was proven not to have occurred until at least two years later. He also seems to be very busy with his Fan Controlled Football League - assuming that’s the same Sohrob Farudi. So while his initial exit was viewed as a “I did my dirty deeds, got my money, and now I’m gone”, it seems more to me now that the guy simply became too busy to keep up with his collection.

Just seems coincidental that all the big trimmed cards came from the purchase of his collection. Who knows, could just be an easy out for Eric but it's worth looking into.

[MeteoriteGuy]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

Just seems coincidental that all the big trimmed cards came from the purchase of his collection. Who knows, could just be an easy out for Eric but it's worth looking into.

I don't imagine that is the case at all.

Imagine if there was a large scale operation going for years...and much of this likely done on consignment. That collection then is just one place the cards came from.

Maybe, dozens of people consigned super high end cards with a seller known for such. Maybe, a large number of these cards were cards with minor damage, or a half grade off, when owned by the consigner.

Maybe, the cards all magically got cleaned and received grade bumps, The final grades were always higher, but who knows...maybe just a 9. So the parties have to make deals. If it grades this, I get this. If it grades this, I get this.

Dozens of consigners. They see their cards get "bumped," They see their cards sold at these higher prices...often 4-5 times more. They see this happening to their cards...and cards owned by other friends.

The system is in place long enough, and realized prices after grading variable enough, that the group can form multiple consigner trades within themselves. When high end cards go for flips 4-5 times...each party can get make money...and maybe get that card they wanted.

They insure the value of the cards in a series of price controlled auctions. "Rumors" of other high sales floats. Who could question the guys with the goods? They smiled and talked about overseas buyers moving the market.

Several years in now and there have been hundreds of such consignment actions and dozens of multiple partner trades. One trader doesn't get his bonus for the grade bump. The dam gets a crack. Elsewhere, an overseas collector has been saving card images.

It could happen.

[Deadshot]

Does anyone here have the messaging app Telegram? That seems to be the only contact you can find for sohrob online. I've see record of other people trying to email him about his fan league and their messages were not answered.

https://www.cryptoblockcon.com/speaker/sohrob-farudi/

Telegram: @sohrobf

[shindo03]

thread will never die....

[shindo03]

mods should just sticky this thread. The cards that are altered or trimmed and are not indicated on the slabs, are harmful to the circulation of the hobby. please mods just sticky this thread. Rename it.... as a Must Read...

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by MeteoriteGuy

I don't imagine that is the case at all.

Imagine if there was a large scale operation going for years...and much of this likely done on consignment. That collection then is just one place the cards came from.

Maybe, dozens of people consigned super high end cards with a seller known for such. Maybe, a large number of these cards were cards with minor damage, or a half grade off, when owned by the consigner.

Maybe, the cards all magically got cleaned and received grade bumps, The final grades were always higher, but who knows...maybe just a 9. So the parties have to make deals. If it grades this, I get this. If it grades this, I get this.

Dozens of consigners. They see their cards get "bumped," They see their cards sold at these higher prices...often 4-5 times more. They see this happening to their cards...and cards owned by other friends.

The system is in place long enough, and realized prices after grading variable enough, that the group can form multiple consigner trades within themselves. When high end cards go for flips 4-5 times...each party can get make money...and maybe get that card they wanted.

They insure the value of the cards in a series of price controlled auctions. "Rumors" of other high sales floats. Who could question the guys with the goods? They smiled and talked about overseas buyers moving the market.

Several years in now and there have been hundreds of such consignment actions and dozens of multiple partner trades. One trader doesn't get his bonus for the grade bump. The dam gets a crack. Elsewhere, an overseas collector has been saving card images.

It could happen.

Yep. Consignment is key here. It's allowed a fairly easy 'out' for these shysters.

I know Adam has gone the way of consignment long ago, and BNC himself can claim he was selling altered items on behalf of others without providing receipts. 'Just take my word for it, and there's no way you can prove it.'

It's not just limited to the altered stuff. I believe Eric's been knowingly consigning stuff with intend to shill market value on high end. Example with the 250k Lebron, but I highly doubt it ends there.

IMO consignment has been one of the hobby's biggest cancers. So much anonymous shady activity.

Yes. I realize legit auction houses (technically consignment) have existed for ages, but you cannot compare Ebay consignment or a BNC consignment to actual high end auction houses where bids are legal binding agreements with financially pre-approved bidders and automatically withdrawn funds at the conclusion. There's an actual level of accountability.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by nrm1977

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...highlight=pwcc

Yes from Feb/2017.

PS- That thread was a good read.

How did you read that thread? Between the awful grammar and maybe 10 posts per page, I couldn't tolerate it all.

So PWCC was caught encouraging shill bidding, or was that debunked?

[ljandkg]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

Yep. Consignment is key here. It's allowed a fairly easy 'out' for these shysters.

I know Adam has gone the way of consignment long ago, and BNC himself can claim he was selling altered items on behalf of others without providing receipts. 'Just take my word for it, and there's no way you can prove it.'

It's not just limited to the altered stuff. I believe Eric's been knowingly consigning stuff with intend to shill market value on high end. Example with the 250k Lebron, but I highly doubt it ends there.

IMO consignment has been one of the hobby's biggest cancers. So much anonymous shady activity.

Yes. I realize legit auction houses (technically consignment) have existed for ages, but you cannot compare Ebay consignment or a BNC consignment to actual high end auction houses where bids are legal binding agreements with financially pre-approved bidders and automatically withdrawn funds at the conclusion. There's an actual level of accountability.

So much that Ebay gave up ages ago with complaints about shill bidding, no incentive for them to monitor it because of the cut they take anyway.

[JMANIA]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

Yep. Consignment is key here. It's allowed a fairly easy 'out' for these shysters.

Yes. I realize legit auction houses (technically consignment) have existed for ages, but you cannot compare Ebay consignment or a BNC consignment to actual high end auction houses where bids are legal binding agreements with financially pre-approved bidders and automatically withdrawn funds at the conclusion. There's an actual level of accountability.

So you are going to give credence to auction houses even though the FBI investigation with Mastro showed shill bidders were often major players in the industry?

And how does PWCC get called out in this thread? He has nothing to do with this.

A 100 plus page thread about a couple of trimmed cards related to a couple of suspects when there are millions that have gotten through and before the main suspect discussed in this thread even was into cards according to his post. PSA created a grading company and claimed it can detect trimmed cards wherein it can only really detect poorly trimmed cards and even non-trimmed cards get kicked for trimming. So it could not do what it claimed it could do and would be bankrupt if its buyback policy were ever properly enforced if we had the right information. The creation of grading companies lead to more trimmed cards.

[DajuanWagner]

Originally Posted by JMANIA

So you are going to give credence to auction houses even though the FBI investigation with Mastro showed shill bidders were often major players in the industry?

And how does PWCC get called out in this thread? He has nothing to do with this.

A 100 plus page thread about a couple of trimmed cards related to a couple of suspects when there are millions that have gotten through and before the main suspect discussed in this thread even was into cards according to his post. PSA created a grading company and claimed it can detect trimmed cards wherein it can only really detect poorly trimmed cards and even non-trimmed cards get kicked for trimming. So it could not do what it claimed it could do and would be bankrupt if its buyback policy were ever properly enforced if we had the right information. The creation of grading companies lead to more trimmed cards.

Rumor control has it that PWCC shills his auctions. I heard that somewhere......that might be why he was called out.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by JMANIA

A 100 plus page thread about a couple of trimmed cards related to a couple of suspects when there are millions that have gotten through and before the main suspect discussed in this thread even was into cards according to his post. PSA created a grading company and claimed it can detect trimmed cards wherein it can only really detect poorly trimmed cards and even non-trimmed cards get kicked for trimming. So it could not do what it claimed it could do and would be bankrupt if its buyback policy were ever properly enforced if we had the right information. The creation of grading companies lead to more trimmed cards.

Good observation. This is the great irony of grading. However, I will still buy graded cards. I just investigate them on my own in addition to taking PSA or BGS's word for it. Same for PSA/DNA autographs.

[RogerGodahell]

Originally Posted by superdan49

Good observation. This is the great irony of grading. However, I will still buy graded cards. I just investigate them on my own in addition to taking PSA or BGS's word for it. Same for PSA/DNA autographs.

This is true and i still prefer graded cards over raw as well. I know altered cards get by them sometimes as well as some occasional questionable centering from time to time. But for me someone who doesn't live near any card shops and has to buy everything online. I can't tell what condition they're in from photos on eBay so it' still the best option available for me. I think overall they do a pretty good job.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

How did you read that thread? Between the awful grammar and maybe 10 posts per page, I couldn't tolerate it all.

So PWCC was caught encouraging shill bidding, or was that debunked?

Is that all that you got out of that thread? PWCC bought a card that they later sold after it was altered.

[Deadshot]

I think PWCC is an entirely different conversation (though it certainly needs to be had).

Let's focus things back in.

What are the main cards of concern here and what will happen with them?

1. Obviously you have the 2 2003 LeBron's.
2. There's the other LeBron that the original owner thought would grade a BGS 6-8.
3. The Kobe in the PSA holder.
4. The MJ 7/23 is a little concerning but that looks like a previously existing problem.
5. The Iverson SOTT. BNC did the right thing in taking it off his website, but I'd like to know what happened to the card from there. How do we guarantee it won't be sold on some other medium in the future?

Did I miss anything?

Someone in the last page or two did a rundown on people who are associated with BNC in some way. While we need to be careful before accusing them of anything, it would be nice to know the extent of their relationship with BNC. Unfortunately, BNC has put them in an awkward spot with his own silence.

I imagine there could be minor points of contention with what I just said, but please know that I am trying to move this conversation forward without getting hung up on semantics.

[cyndeeg3]

Originally Posted by MeteoriteGuy

They insure the value of the cards in a series of price controlled auctions. "Rumors" of other high sales floats. Who could question the guys with the goods? They smiled and talked about overseas buyers moving the market.

Several years in now and there have been hundreds of such consignment actions and dozens of multiple partner trades. One trader doesn't get his bonus for the grade bump. The dam gets a crack. Elsewhere, an overseas collector has been saving card images.

It could happen.

ohhh so true

[tmacdirkfan]

Can't say I'm surprised about any of the parties involved here.

[D4B182]

Started reading the thread and saw we are already over 100 pages!
Anyone want to summarize for those of us who haven't read all 2600+ posts?

Thanks

[chezball]

Originally Posted by D4B182

Started reading the thread and saw we are already over 100 pages!
Anyone want to summarize for those of us who haven't read all 2600+ posts?

Thanks

Put the work in like everyone else.

[thenwhatjk]

Looks like this thread is ready to die and the trimmer bros and the money laundering bros and the inheritance bros can get back to normal

[Siberian13]

Originally Posted by thenwhatjk

Looks like this thread is ready to die and the trimmer bros and the money laundering bros and the inheritance bros can get back to normal

Someone could always start another thread with the full summary and photos of the cards we know that are in question and all parties involved. Not sure if that would take away from this thread and how the two would come up in google searches.

[Deadshot]

As outlined in my last post, I think there are several cards of concern that we need to stay focused on.

There are also several people that I'd like to hear from that have stayed relatively quiet. If nothing else, I respect their opinions on all things hobby related and am curious to know where they stand with this one.

[rcmb3220]

Originally Posted by D4B182

Started reading the thread and saw we are already over 100 pages!
Anyone want to summarize for those of us who haven't read all 2600+ posts?

Thanks

Damn shame what they did to that dog

[Rock_47802]

Buy Nice Cards has a first year Exquisite Reggie Miller Notable Nameplate Auto Patch posted, I originally bought that card raw in 2016 and had it graded. It graded a BGS 8.5/10, the subs were 8.5 corners, 8 surface, 9 edges and 9.5 centering. I can see he has had it bumped too. If you look at the picture, it has a slight touch of paper loss, maybe a 1.5-2 millimeter spot. I felt lucky to get the 8.5 grade, no chance this card is “MINT”