This is why WAR confuses me...

atoaz12 · 06-01-2018, 09:45 PM

Look at Altuve, Freeman and Belt

http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/sort/WARBR

Freeman is superior in nearly every number and yet they all have a WAR of 2.6

Great players and great seasons, but it seems clear it's Freeman, Belt, then Altuve

So confusing

*If anyone could copy and paste stat columns, you're smarter than me. And probably understand WAR better

Stech36 · 06-01-2018, 09:50 PM

The difference is Defense and position. Belt has been a slightly better defender than freeman, and a slightly worse hitter. It evens out. Altuve is a second baseman, so he gets bonus points essentially for being at a premium position.. it’s not a perfect system, but that’s the gist of it.

Ottomatic · 06-01-2018, 09:50 PM

Poor Brandon Belt always underrated because he plays in a tough park. Belt and Freeman are hitting very similar overall, both play first. Altuve is hitting slightly worse, but runs the bases better and plays a tougher position. Pretty easy to see all three of those guys are having pretty darn similar seasons with or without WAR.

bwalter1 · 06-01-2018, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stech36

The difference is Defense and position. Belt has been a slightly better defender than freeman, and a slightly worse hitter. It evens out. Altuve is a second baseman, so he gets bonus points essentially for being at a premium position.. it’s not a perfect system, but that’s the gist of it.

What are the other "premium" positions or are there? Where does 3b rate to SS? Essentially would Machado's war be higher with same stats at 3b or at SS?

rman112 · 06-01-2018, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwalter1

What are the other "premium" positions or are there? Where does 3b rate to SS? Essentially would Machado's war be higher with same stats at 3b or at SS?

C, SS, CF most important.

rwperu34 · 06-02-2018, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwalter1

What are the other "premium" positions or are there? Where does 3b rate to SS? Essentially would Machado's war be higher with same stats at 3b or at SS?

C +12.5
SS +7.5
2b/3b/cf +2.5
lf/rf -7.5
1b -12.5

Roughly.

RaceDog · 06-02-2018, 12:25 AM

I am not a big fan of WAR yet...yet.

They haven't perfected the data for defense and they also place too heavy a weight on what they do calculate for defense. When they score a slap hitting .280 above average defensive SS #9 hitter equally with a offensive stud corner OF that is average defensively, there is a problem.

mfw13 · 06-02-2018, 12:34 AM

You also have to account for the fact that WAR factors in park effects....so Belt gets a boost since he plays in a tough hitters park.

hairysasquatch · 06-02-2018, 05:48 AM

WAR, what is it good for?

atoaz12 · 06-02-2018, 06:43 AM

I was a dummy was reading it as offensive war

Bader · 06-02-2018, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hairysasquatch

WAR, what is it good for?

Absolutely nothing!

hairysasquatch · 06-02-2018, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bader

Absolutely nothing!

Say it again!

Bader · 06-02-2018, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hairysasquatch

Say it again!

Ya”ll huh, WAR!....what is it good for...absolutely nothing

Chrisyork33 · 06-02-2018, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaceDog

I am not a big fan of WAR yet...yet.

They haven't perfected the data for defense and they also place too heavy a weight on what they do calculate for defense. When they score a slap hitting .280 above average defensive SS #9 hitter equally with a offensive stud corner OF that is average defensively, there is a problem.

I'm feel the same. The concept I like, but the defensive metrics still need some tweaking IMO. I think that will happen though. For now, its the best we have to measure a player's total value, while considering a multitude of factors.

hornedfrog1985 · 06-02-2018, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrisyork33

I'm feel the same. The concept I like, but the defensive metrics still need some tweaking IMO. I think that will happen though. For now, its the best we have to measure a player's total value, while considering a multitude of factors.

Agreed.... i see some pretty bad defense by some of these guys and they still get a boost simply for playing a premium position.

chezball · 06-02-2018, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hairysasquatch

WAR, what is it good for?

dhendrix1303 · 06-02-2018, 07:33 AM

War is old men talking and young men dying

dodgerfanjohn · 06-02-2018, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaceDog

I am not a big fan of WAR yet...yet.

They haven't perfected the data for defense and they also place too heavy a weight on what they do calculate for defense. When they score a slap hitting .280 above average defensive SS #9 hitter equally with a offensive stud corner OF that is average defensively, there is a problem.

If you are referring to Simmons, he hit 14 hr and 38 doubles last year and to my recollection never batted 9th.

And he is considered in competition for best defensive short stop ever.

FWIW he is batting over .330 so far this year.

SethMurphy · 06-02-2018, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dodgerfanjohn

If you are referring to Simmons, he hit 14 hr and 38 doubles last year and to my recollection never batted 9th.

And he is considered in competition for best defensive short stop ever.

FWIW he is batting over .330 so far this year.

You are correct

Games by batting position in 2017

1st - 9
2nd - 6
3rd - 2
4th - 3
5th - 72
6th - 56
7th - 10

and actually only has 35 games batting 9th in his entire career (from which he has hit .307 in 124 PA)

StlScott · 06-02-2018, 08:50 AM

Each team has their own version of WAR. That is how they decide how much they pay their players and who they look for in trades etc.

rats60 · 06-02-2018, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwperu34

C +12.5
SS +7.5
2b/3b/cf +2.5
lf/rf -7.5
1b -12.5

Roughly.

This is stupid and the whole reason why WAR is worthless to compare players at different positions. Defensive value is the plays you make or not, not being a statue at a particular position. 2nd base is not a more difficult position to play than right field. This is what happens when people who never played the game decide to opine on those who play at the highest level.

tkraft24 · 06-02-2018, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

2nd base is not a more difficult position to play than right field.

So we can throw right fielders at 2B and there fielding percentage would remain constant? WAR argument aside, middle infield positions are clearly more demanding positions and require more skill than corner outfielders.

tribefan26 · 06-02-2018, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

2nd base is not a more difficult position to play than right field.

dodgerfanjohn · 06-02-2018, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

This is stupid and the whole reason why WAR is worthless to compare players at different positions. Defensive value is the plays you make or not, not being a statue at a particular position. 2nd base is not a more difficult position to play than right field. This is what happens when people who never played the game decide to opine on those who play at the highest level.

Aside of being incorrect, simple game knowledge would tell you that 2nd basemen have more fielding chances and also many more "difficult" or "advanced" plays to make(ie the ball comes at them faster and from a shorter distance, requiring quicker reaction time).

Peties Army · 06-02-2018, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dodgerfanjohn

Aside of being incorrect, simple game knowledge would tell you that 2nd basemen have more fielding chances and also many more "difficult" or "advanced" plays to make(ie the ball comes at them faster and from a shorter distance, requiring quicker reaction time).

100%.

All add probably the most important thing that makes 2B harder, having to turn a DP. Runner coming up your back side and you can’t see.

Second is harder the RF. Don’t be silly.

06-01-2018, 09:45 PM	#1
atoaz12 Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Evans, GA Posts: 7,603 inthegamememorabilia	This is why WAR confuses me... Look at Altuve, Freeman and Belt http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/sort/WARBR Freeman is superior in nearly every number and yet they all have a WAR of 2.6 Great players and great seasons, but it seems clear it's Freeman, Belt, then Altuve So confusing *If anyone could copy and paste stat columns, you're smarter than me. And probably understand WAR better __________________ “Our culture has accepted two huge lies. The first is that if you disagree with someone’s lifestyle, you must fear or hate them. The second is that to love someone means you agree with everything they believe or do. Both are nonsense. You don’t have to compromise convictions to be compassionate.” ― Rick Warren

06-02-2018, 06:43 AM	#10
atoaz12 Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Evans, GA Posts: 7,603 inthegamememorabilia	I was a dummy was reading it as offensive war __________________ “Our culture has accepted two huge lies. The first is that if you disagree with someone’s lifestyle, you must fear or hate them. The second is that to love someone means you agree with everything they believe or do. Both are nonsense. You don’t have to compromise convictions to be compassionate.” ― Rick Warren

06-02-2018, 07:33 AM	#17
dhendrix1303 Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 9,711	War is old men talking and young men dying __________________ Buying: 1995 Atlanta Braves autos Pre-80's Atlanta Braves PSA Vintage

06-02-2018, 08:50 AM	#20
StlScott Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Saint Louis Posts: 2,323 rocket201 stlscott319	Each team has their own version of WAR. That is how they decide how much they pay their players and who they look for in trades etc. __________________ I have been prospecting over 20 years for fun. I won some and lost some. It was fun either way. Sadly, prospecting is nearing to an end. It is now gambling. Breakers and distributors are the casinos.

06-01-2018, 09:50 PM	#2
Stech36 Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Westminster, MD Posts: 9,544 Stech36	The difference is Defense and position. Belt has been a slightly better defender than freeman, and a slightly worse hitter. It evens out. Altuve is a second baseman, so he gets bonus points essentially for being at a premium position.. it’s not a perfect system, but that’s the gist of it.

06-01-2018, 09:50 PM	#3
Ottomatic Member Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 4,141 Ottomatic	Poor Brandon Belt always underrated because he plays in a tough park. Belt and Freeman are hitting very similar overall, both play first. Altuve is hitting slightly worse, but runs the bases better and plays a tougher position. Pretty easy to see all three of those guys are having pretty darn similar seasons with or without WAR.

06-02-2018, 12:25 AM	#7
RaceDog Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 2,339	I am not a big fan of WAR yet...yet. They haven't perfected the data for defense and they also place too heavy a weight on what they do calculate for defense. When they score a slap hitting .280 above average defensive SS #9 hitter equally with a offensive stud corner OF that is average defensively, there is a problem.

06-02-2018, 12:34 AM	#8
mfw13 Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 17,492	You also have to account for the fact that WAR factors in park effects....so Belt gets a boost since he plays in a tough hitters park.

06-02-2018, 05:48 AM	#9
hairysasquatch Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: In the Woods, Central NY Posts: 35,990	WAR, what is it good for? __________________ I am going signature-free