Right now, where do you rank Lebron all time?

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by pip33tomj23

It didn't culminate in a layup, it culminated in two free throws... which as it turns out, didn't get the job done.

Due to a hold, which I guess Lebron should have known would happen in his infinite wisdom prior to making the pass.

Regardless, ANY team in the league would take 2 FTs in that situation. If you have a chance for a wide-open layup/guaranteed 2 FTs you take it 100% of the time because it's the smarter play.

Do I need to show you FG% vs FT%? Do we need to redo end of game basketball strategy and start putting guys on the stripe instead of letting them clank buzzer beaters?

[CoolG]

Just to lighten the mood a little around here




https://youtu.be/c7q6gHW9fo0

[jr24ai3]

Originally Posted by Noah

Makes me laugh also, because Horace grant passed to paxson. And Kerr’s shot was with the game tied and Jordan was doubled by Russell and Stockton

Lebron was single covered and passed with the game on the line. Jordan passed knowing if Kerr missed they still had overtime

Lebron fans will hate to admit it but it’s totally different

Game 1, NBA Finals... biggest game of the year. If you are the best in the world, single covered by a guy 6-7 inches shorter than you, the ball should never leave your hand. If it's a hard double team, I can understand passing. But he could have shot over Curry, no problem.

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by jr24ai3

Game 1, NBA Finals... biggest game of the year. If you are the best in the world, single covered by a guy 6-7 inches shorter than you, the ball should never leave your hand. If it's a hard double team, I can understand passing. But he could have shot over Curry, no problem.

Layup/FT% > 3P%

[pip33tomj23]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

Due to a hold, which I guess Lebron should have known would happen in his infinite wisdom prior to making the pass.

Regardless, ANY team in the league would take 2 FTs in that situation. If you have a chance for a wide-open layup/guaranteed 2 FTs you take it 100% of the time because it's the smarter play.

Do I need to show you FG% vs FT%? Do we need to redo end of game basketball strategy and start putting guys on the stripe instead of letting them clank buzzer beaters?

Now you're speaking for all the other teams in the league? Haha.

C'mon man, the result of the pass was FT's. LeBron's play resulted in one point. Free throws in that scenario with that pressure are not guaranteed even by someone that shoots 80% at the line.

What I am saying and repeatedly have been saying is that if I have someone who is top 5 of all time on my team, I want him winning or losing the game for me. I don't want him to put George Hill in that spot to win the game. I want him to decide.

[jr24ai3]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

Layup/FT% > 3P%

Lebron >>>>>>>>>>>>>>George Hill

[jr24ai3]

So back in 2013 when Ray Allen hit the 3 to tie the game...Did Lebron make the wrong basketball play by shooting the 3 with 2 guys jumping at him? Bosh was rolling to the basket and could have had an easy 2 to bring them within 1. Then they could have fouled the Spurs and hoped to have a shot at a 2 to tie the game.

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by pip33tomj23

Who are you comparing him to when you say that? Jordan? That argument doesn't really work.

Jordan wasn't just a clutch shooter, he was a clutch player in general. Offensively and defensively.

Again, I think LeBron is an incredible talent... but the criticisms sometimes of his last minute performances are in my opinion, occasionally fair. He does get a lot of hate, a lot of it for flopping, but his game last night was one of the best I've seen played by anyone. (minus the last 30 seconds and OT)

Against the Warriors in the Finals the last 3 seasons Lebron is averaging more points, assists, rebounds, blocks, and steals than MJ did along with shooting better from the field and 3. So not sure what information you’re using to assume MJ would have this Cavs team in a spot to win against 4 all stars in their prime and two league mvps. Lebrons playing at that insane of a level.

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by pip33tomj23

Now you're speaking for all the other teams in the league? Haha.

C'mon man, the result of the pass was FT's. LeBron's play resulted in one point. Free throws in that scenario with that pressure are not guaranteed even by someone that shoots 80% at the line.

What I am saying and repeatedly have been saying is that if I have someone who is top 5 of all time on my team, I want him winning or losing the game for me. I don't want him to put George Hill in that spot to win the game. I want him to decide.

But that's what I don't understand. You want him winning or losing the game, you want him to decide. He did decide and it happened to be the right play that ended up not getting them the win, although it did TIE the game.

The play got them to OT. A Lebron step-back in that situation (he had Green and Durant sagging heavy for the double if he drives, which is what allowed Hill to be so completely open), isn't even a 50/50 shot. The pass to Hill lead to the game-tying FT and a miss for the potential game winning FT.

I get why people WANT him to shoot it, but to say he made the wrong play is moronic. His play literally tied the game with an 80% chance to win it.

[21Pittsburgh58]

Originally Posted by jr24ai3

Lebron >>>>>>>>>>>>>>George Hill

It was a layup. It doesn’t matter how many > you put in your comment, it’s still a better percentage shot than a 3 pointer from ANYONE. It was such a high percentage play, that Klay Thompson realized he should foul instead of giving him the chance to lay it in.

How hard is it for non-LeBron/Cavs fans to understand this? A 90% chance (or better) for a lay up or a 40% chance (or worse) for a 3-pointer? It was the right decision.

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by jr24ai3

So back in 2013 when Ray Allen hit the 3 to tie the game...Did Lebron make the wrong basketball play by shooting the 3 with 2 guys jumping at him? Bosh was rolling to the basket and could have had an easy 2 to bring them within 1. Then they could have fouled the Spurs and hoped to have a shot at a 2 to tie the game.

Bosh was 1 foot in front of the 3-point line when Lebron shot that, he wasn't rolling. He had just set the screen and was looking back at Lebron shoot it. He then awkwardly skips to the basket freely as Diaw and Parker both contest.

[pip33tomj23]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

But that's what I don't understand. You want him winning or losing the game, you want him to decide. He did decide and it happened to be the right play that ended up not getting them the win, although it did TIE the game.

The play got them to OT. A Lebron step-back in that situation (he had Green and Durant sagging heavy for the double if he drives, which is what allowed Hill to be so completely open), isn't even a 50/50 shot. The pass to Hill lead to the game-tying FT and a miss for the potential game winning FT.

I get why people WANT him to shoot it, but to say he made the wrong play is moronic. His play literally tied the game with an 80% chance to win it.

Time and time again he makes the "right" play and it costs the team the W. It was George last night, Korver last year, it's been other guys in the past. The right play with the game on the line is having your best player try to put the ball in the basket.

It's not moronic to think he made the wrong play. It's unrealistic to me to assume that George Hill, who has never been on this stage, is going to come through in the clutch after only shooting 6 times all game for seven points.

I'm saying that the game was LeBron's to lose last night, he was rolling, he looked incredible. There was zero reason he couldn't just rise up over a smaller Curry and nail it.

[Round Mound]

Originally Posted by pip33tomj23

The right play with the game on the line is having your best player try to put the ball in the basket.

Not it's not. The right play is to find the best combination of right player / right spot / best defensive matchup.

[dbird3312]

Originally Posted by Noah

Should of made it 3 buzzer beaters, kobe and Jordan would of took the shot and won.

actually kobe shot less effectively/efficiently on game winning/tying shots when compared to lebron. If you actually look at the numbers its pretty clear.



Even the off the top of my head numbers, how many buzzer beaters does kobe have in the playoffs? One. How many buzzer beaters does bron have in the playoffs? Five.

I know kobe got the perception of a cold blooded incredible game winning shot maker, and lebron somehow (the Dallas series) has the perception of someone who can’t finish games, but both perceptions couldn’t be more of an illusion and both couldn’t be further from the truth.

Yes Kobe would have taken a contested one legged fade away and statistically speaking (look at the numbers up top) probably would have clanked it off the side of the rim. Does that make him any shape or fashion better than lebron? Hell no.

People want to try and bash lebron after one of the most epic/best finals performances you or I will probably ever see, by saying Jordan would have taken and made that shot, fine. But not kobe. Sorry. Can’t allow that to happen.

Geez. It’s people like you that can watch a player drop 51/8/8 on 56% shooting, make two potential game winning shots with a minute and one with 30 seconds left (2 nasty finishes at the rim.) and watch him make a potential game winning defensive play again (ludicrous overturned charge foul on kd,) and make a potential game winning pass to a a career 80% or 84% (I can’t remember which one,) AND YOU STILL CANT GIVE THE MAN FULL CREDIT THAT HE DESERVES. It baffles my mind as a basketball fan. If any other player dropped 51/8/8 against probably the best team ever, you’d be fairly impressed I bet.

The only way a player can really do something great by your standards are to make buzzer beaters then? I mean that’s fine. Silly but fine. Especially because when counting playoff buzzer beaters as previously mentioned, Kobe has 1, mj has 3 (I believe) and bron has 5. Sooo...

Kobe takes 60 shots and scores 60 in his last game and gets revered for it. Lebron drops 51/8/8 in the finals and you say “kobe would have made that shot,” hahaha. good stuff man. Good stuff.

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by dbird3312

actually kobe shot less effectively/efficiently on game winning/tying shots when compared to lebron. If you actually look at the numbers is pretty clear.

Even the off the top of my head numbers, how many buzzer beaters does kobe have in the playoffs? One. How many buzzer beaters does bron have in the playoffs? Five.

I know kobe got the perception of a cold blooded incredible game winning shot maker, and lebron somehow (the Dallas series) has the perception of someone who can’t finish games, but both perceptions couldn’t be more of an illusion and both couldn’t be further from the truth.

Yes Kobe would have taken a contested one legged fade away and statistically speaking (look at the numbers up top) probably would have clanked it off the side of the rim. Does that make him any shape or fashion better than lebron? Hell no.

People want to say try and bash lebron after one of the most epic/best finals performances you or I will probably ever see, by saying Jordan would have taken and made that shot, fine. But not kobe. Sorry. Can’t allow that to happen.

Geez. It’s people like you that can watch a player drop 51/8/8 on 56% shooting, make two potential game winning shots with a minute and one with 30 seconds left (2 nasty finishes at the rim.) and watch him make a potential game winning defensive play again (ludicrous overturned charge foul on kd,) and make a potential game winning pass to a a career 80% or 84% (I can’t remember which one,) AND YOU STILL CANT GIVE THE MAN FULL CREDIT THAT HE DESERVES. It baffles my mind as a basketball fan. If any other player dropped 51/8/8 against probably the best team ever, you’d be fairly impressed I bet.

Kobe takes 60 shots and scores 60 in his last game and gets revered for it. Lebron drops 51/8/8 in the finals and you say “kobe would have made that shot,” hahaha. good stuff man. Good stuff.

Excellent post!

The efficiency is what impresses me more than anything with what Lebron is doing.

[pip33tomj23]

Originally Posted by Round Mound

Not it's not. The right play is to find the best combination of right player / right spot / best defensive matchup.

Right, and the best combination on this Cavs team is LeBron with the ball at the three point line or closer compared to anything else on that team.

LeBron had Curry on him? How is that not the best match up? He was being covered one on one? It certainly was the right player in LeBron.

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by pip33tomj23

Time and time again he makes the "right" play and it costs the team the W. It was George last night, Korver last year, it's been other guys in the past. The right play with the game on the line is having your best player try to put the ball in the basket.

It's not moronic to think he made the wrong play. It's unrealistic to me to assume that George Hill, who has never been on this stage, is going to come through in the clutch after only shooting 6 times all game for seven points.

I'm saying that the game was LeBron's to lose last night, he was rolling, he looked incredible. There was zero reason he couldn't just rise up over a smaller Curry and nail it.

Except for shooting percentages and what not.

It's moronic when the play Lebron made actually sent the game to overtime, and had an 80% chance to win it.

A Lebron pull up doesn't have an 80% chance of winning the game, and sure as hell doesn't get them to overtime.

But hey, down 1 point on your last possession of the game, you take the guy taking one shot that he shoots 0.367% this year and I'll take the guy who shoots the FTs at an 80% clip.

Who do you think wins more games? I'll do that math for you if you like.

[Melagoo]

LeBron at 6'8" and 260 LBS has extraordinary leaping ability and court sense ... and seems to be very durable ... he is the GOAT to me ...

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by Melagoo

LeBron at 6'8" and 260 LBS has extraordinary leaping ability and court sense ... and seems to be very durable ... he is the GOAT to me ...

Yes he is the “goodest of all timez”!!

[Round Mound]

Originally Posted by pip33tomj23

Right, and the best combination on this Cavs team is LeBron with the ball at the three point line or closer compared to anything else on that team.

LeBron had Curry on him? How is that not the best match up? He was being covered one on one? It certainly was the right player in LeBron.

LeBron could have had Doris Burke on him, his shooting percentage would still be lower than Hill FT%....

[pip33tomj23]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

Except for shooting percentages and what not.

It's moronic when the play Lebron made actually sent the game to overtime, and had an 80% chance to win it.

A Lebron pull up doesn't have an 80% chance of winning the game, and sure as hell doesn't get them to overtime.

But hey, down 1 point on your last possession of the game, you take the guy taking one shot that he shoots 0.367% this year and I'll take the guy who shoots the FTs at an 80% clip.

Who do you think wins more games? I'll do that math for you if you like.

This is no point in arguing...

Obviously a layup yields a higher percentage than any other shot. Statistically speaking, you are right. But statistics don't win games, they don't win championships. Players do. Players in tough situations either come through or they don't.

The decision LeBron made to give Hill a chance yielded a tie game and eventual OT. At that point, LeBron went back to hibernate and didn't show up. His best shot was him, it's always him.

For what it's worth, LeBron shot nearly 60% from the field last night. I'd rather a 60% shot with LeBron over Curry than a 80% shot with George Hill in that scenario.

[ThoseBackPages]

Top 10!

[Round Mound]

If players had the vision of cameras placed 20 feet above the court, with the ability to know in advance if the shot goes in or not, then.....

[pip33tomj23]

Originally Posted by Round Mound

LeBron could have had Doris Burke on him, his shooting percentage would still be lower than Hill FT%....

The best chance to win, in my opinion, was LeBron rolling last night. We can agree to disagree. Stats don't always get the job done... the right basketball play doesn't always get the job done as we've seen in LeBron's career over and over again.

I'd rather have LeBron with that opportunity than George Hill, regardless of where Hill is on the floor.

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by pip33tomj23

This is no point in arguing...

Obviously a layup yields a higher percentage than any other shot. Statistically speaking, you are right. But statistics don't win games, they don't win championships. Players do. Players in tough situations either come through or they don't.

The decision LeBron made to give Hill a chance yielded a tie game and eventual OT. At that point, LeBron went back to hibernate and didn't show up. His best shot was him, it's always him.

For what it's worth, LeBron shot nearly 60% from the field last night. I'd rather a 60% shot with LeBron over Curry than a 80% shot with George Hill in that scenario.

Yea, in a perfect world you would have Lebron play 47 minutes and get all the hard work done, then bring MJ in for the last minute. But MJ in for those 47 min instead of Lebron, no chance this Cavs team is even in the Finals let alone competing against the Warriors.