Right now, where do you rank Lebron all time?

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by the27guy

He might go down as 1 or 2, but saying that it's not going to be close just doesn't make sense.

He'll never win as many rings as Russell.

He'll never average 50 a game or score 100 in a game.

He's pretty likely to not win as many rings as Duncan or Kareem....

Saying that "it's not really close" even assuming that he's really good for 3-4 more years doesn't make sense.

Right now he has a long long way to go to get to Kareem in points and championships.

The bolded above is why it's completely unfair to measure him against the past. Those players playing in today's NBA don't do what they did either.

Swap Lebron for Russell on the 1960's Celtics teams and they quite possibly run an undefeated season (assuming health).

[RogerGodahell]

[WaiverWire]

The major thing Lebron has going for him is sustained excellence over a long period of time, and all-time great stats.

The major thing he has going against him is that he totally sucked in the Finals in 2011, even though his team was better and even though he was in his PRIME. In game 4 of that Finals he had 8 points, 3-of-11 shooting, nine rebounds, seven assists, two steals, and four turnovers. And that was in his PRIME. No way Jordan, Russell, or Kareem would have choked in the FINALS in their prime. No way Jordan puts up just 8 points in an NBA Finals game.

[mj2kb]

What scary for me is wondering how high Jordan and Lebron (arguably 2 of the greatest) auto cards can they go. Every year demand will increase and supply will decrease.

[6celtics33]

I’m projecting here but I assume he will end up 30,000-10,000-10,000 which will firmly plant him in a category of all around greatness we haven’t seen. He has 4 mvps, he has a bunch of playoff records, Hell he might end up with 40,000 points and he’s not even considered a scorer. He only has 1 scoring title. His durability is otherworldly. I can’t believe how well his body has held up or how well he is playing in season 15. He is a very versatile defender who can guard multiple positions on the ball.

Now to the negatives

He turns it over a lot. He gets lost off the ball on D against good passing teams, he is a poor free throw shooter for someone who has the ball in his hands as much as he does toward the end of games, he has shown a willingness to throw his team under the bus, to disappear at key moments in big games, to leave when the going gets tough, etc.

He has a 18-27 overall finals win loss record

16-19 if you don’t count the 07 Spurs run which shouldn’t be counted against him or the 2015 run when Love and Kyrie got hurt and shouldn’t be counted against him either

Still when he had good to great supporting casts he has failed to be .500 against the best competition.

Basketball is a game where one player can disproportionately affect a game. He has not been able to do so the way his talent projects.

So if I was going to rank him on resume and accomplishment I would put him in top 3 with Jordan and Kareem and you could argue about the order. Theyve all done well. In that regard you could make Lebron and Kareem 1-2 with Jordan 3 because they will both put 20 seasons on the books where Jordan managed about 13. So their longevity adds value.

But if I was ranking who is the best ever and or who has the best 10-12 year peak run then my rankings would be different. I would go

MJ
Russell
Magic
Kareem
Bird
Duncan
Lebron
Wilt
Hakeem
Shaq

[titletowncards]

Personally being able to see both Jordan and LeBron play in their prime has been great. I still put Jordan ahead of LeBron but I don't think you can put LeBron lower than 2. Other than those 2 I'd go Kobe, Wilt, Bill Russell, Magic, Bird and Duncan.

[6celtics33]

I completely understand any Lebron ranking 2-10 because after Jordan I think you can make a case for a lot of different orders.

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

The bolded above is why it's completely unfair to measure him against the past. Those players playing in today's NBA don't do what they did either.

Swap Lebron for Russell on the 1960's Celtics teams and they quite possibly run an undefeated season (assuming health).

Russell in 15 years did this

2 NCAA titles
12 trips to the nba finals (11-1)
5 MVP’s
10-0 in game 7s
30pts 40rebs in a game 7
Player/coached for nba title

You’re projecting that Lebron could have all the modern advantages going back in time but not that Russell could have any coming forward in time. That’s not exactly apples to apples.

And even if there were 4 teams in the whole league, I’m not sure how that only helps Russell. The rest of the league had an equal chance at winning.

Lebron doesn’t even try in the regular season too much so going undefeated is a pipe dream. This is the first time he played all 82 and his own fans promote playoff Lebron as a wonderful thing.

[Jasondr91]

Originally Posted by rhigh2390

I think Duncan played a huge part in players buying in, and although the Spurs are a great organization, I think Duncan deserves a lot more credit than you're giving him.

Timmy D bought into Pop's coaching. Lots of Spurs guys did. They evaluate selections and picks foreign and domestic unlike any other team in the league, bar none.

Timmy D didn't teach Parker how to drive to the basket and release one of the sweetest finger rolls in the game's history. Now did he help Manu's gritty playing style? Perhaps....but those guys from South America roll like that. (Look and Anderson Varajao in his early days)

I'm all for praising Timmy, I've watched him here since his college days.

[the27guy]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

The bolded above is why it's completely unfair to measure him against the past. Those players playing in today's NBA don't do what they did either.

Swap Lebron for Russell on the 1960's Celtics teams and they quite possibly run an undefeated season (assuming health).

I agree with you completely. And that is why the list is debatable. I will only disagree with people who say things like "and it isn't close". 1 is MJ. 2-9 or 10 is all pretty debatable to me.

One other thing.... I will never argue who is "better", but I will argue who had the better career. The style of play, rules, and the way the game is called have changed so much that it's impossible. So the question to me of "ranking" is lengthened to "how do you rank careers?". Lebron's career is the 6th best in my opinion....


If you want to rank "most talented" I would put Lebron first.... and for me, it's actually not close. He is the most talented player to ever live.

If you want to rank "most clutch", he's not on the board.

[eastbayak]

To me, he’s number two (and that’s not a bad thing). They both have quite comparable stats after the same amount of NBA seasons.

What stands out to me:

- MJ was 6-0 in the finals
- MJ played 4 years of college Ball (aka missed 4 years worth of NBA in his early youth), missed 1.75 seasons during his prime (after his father’s death), and took a 3-year break from basketball after his second retirement. So, in other words, that’s 8.75 years of NBA time gone (and consists of 3+ years of prime basketball + potential championships)

[bighunt172]

Originally Posted by the27guy

He might go down as 1 or 2, but saying that it's not going to be close just doesn't make sense.

He'll never win as many rings as Russell.

He'll never average 50 a game or score 100 in a game.

He's pretty likely to not win as many rings as Duncan or Kareem....

Saying that "it's not really close" even assuming that he's really good for 3-4 more years doesn't make sense.

Right now he has a long long way to go to get to Kareem in points and championships.

No matter what anyone says. And everyone favors a certain era. Competition back in the day just wants even close to what it is now, that’s a fact

[motu79]

Jordan #1
LeBron #2

Have got to watch both of their full careers. I mean, I was 5 when Jordan hit the league, but I got to watch him all the way through High School.

Both of these players are must watch to me when they're on. Only 2 I can think of when it comes to individually. There have been better teams and great players on those teams, but individually watching, it's MJ and LBJ for me. Not even close with anyone else.

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

Russell in 15 years did this

2 NCAA titles
12 trips to the nba finals (11-1)
5 MVP’s
10-0 in game 7s
30pts 40rebs in a game 7
Player/coached for nba title

You’re projecting that Lebron could have all the modern advantages going back in time but not that Russell could have any coming forward in time. That’s not exactly apples to apples.

And even if there were 4 teams in the whole league, I’m not sure how that only helps Russell. The rest of the league had an equal chance at winning.

Lebron doesn’t even try in the regular season too much so going undefeated is a pipe dream. This is the first time he played all 82 and his own fans promote playoff Lebron as a wonderful thing.

The Celtics were the best team of the 60's. They couldn't touch the field goal percentage of the worst team in the league this season (the Bulls). They'd get smoked.

People hate on players inefficient players all the time, yet the Celtics were an entire TEAM of innefficient players.

The Bulls were the worst shooting team in the NBA this year, shooting 43.5%.
The Celtics from 1960-1970 had a higher FG% just 3 seasons.

The NBA was completely different in the 60's when Russell played.

The Celtics were taking over 105 shots a game and making shots in the high 40's per game.

The most attempts a game this past season were taken by the Bulls, at 88 shots per game. The Celtics were attempting over 20 more shots, and missing them at a higher clip than any team in the NBA currently. You think that may be why those rebound numbers are so inflated? Russell literally wouldn't have the opportunity to grab those boards.

They're cool numbers and look amazing, but when taken in context it's rather pedestrian. Drummond had 16 rebounds a game this year and nobody bats an eye. He had roughly 40 less shot attempts, and 50-60 fewer misses per game to get those rebounds.

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by the27guy

I agree with you completely. And that is why the list is debatable. I will only disagree with people who say things like "and it isn't close". 1 is MJ. 2-9 or 10 is all pretty debatable to me.

One other thing.... I will never argue who is "better", but I will argue who had the better career. The style of play, rules, and the way the game is called have changed so much that it's impossible. So the question to me of "ranking" is lengthened to "how do you rank careers?". Lebron's career is the 6th best in my opinion....


If you want to rank "most talented" I would put Lebron first.... and for me, it's actually not close. He is the most talented player to ever live.

If you want to rank "most clutch", he's not on the board.

I agree with a lot of this, except I never claim "clutch" to be a category because it's such a wonky thing to try and measure.

I'm just not impressed by much from that predates the mid-90's because the talent pool in the NBA was so very shallow. Certain players for sure have impressive stat lines, but honestly even Russell's 24 RPG isn't AS impressive in the context of the NBA at the time. It was an inefficient league that had roughly 40-50 more shots taken a game and 50-60 more misses per game than today's NBA. You're telling me if we swapped Andre Drummond for Bill Russell in the 64-64 season he couldn't have grabbed 8 more rebounds a game than he did this year with close to double the opportunity to do so? Maybe not, but it would be very very close. Drummond isn't even a Top 100 player in league history.

[jstasyk1121]

For me Lebron doesnt get enough credit for the longevity aspect...its so huge...he is finishing up his 15th season and it may have been his best statistical season ever!! in his 15TH Year!! that is beyond insane...now i get he didnt go to college so that matters a bit...but still...guys like Magic and Bird only played 12-13 yrs total in the NBA...lebron in his 15th season just did stuff that those guys only did in their prime years...if you count college then their 15th years would be like year 11/12 in the NBA and they were about out of the league at that point...

Lebron in yr15 just put up 27.5/8.6/9.1 and a 28.6PER...

Bird in his 15th yr after HS(3college, 12th nba) put up 19.4, 8.5, 7.2 and a 19.7PER...in fact bird never once in his career had a PER as high as Lebrons this year(his 7th highest in his career)

Magic in his 15th yr was his short comeback year after 4yrs off...so basically he didnt even play 15yrs after High School...

idk i just think when you look at what the guy has done for a straight 14yrs 27+/7+/7+ with a 14yr PER of 28.4!!!

i know everyone just loves to hate on him and the finals record and all of that...but the sheer volume of stats and consistency of absolute top tier elite talent for a decade and a half cannot be ignored...he as been the ELITE of the league for longer than most guys even play total!!

to have him below some guys to me is crazy...his prime has been 14yrs long to this point...that is one helluva peak that again is longer than bird/magic/jordan and others whole careers were!!!

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

The Celtics were the best team of the 60's. They couldn't touch the field goal percentage of the worst team in the league this season (the Bulls). They'd get smoked.

People hate on players inefficient players all the time, yet the Celtics were an entire TEAM of innefficient players.

The Bulls were the worst shooting team in the NBA this year, shooting 43.5%.
The Celtics from 1960-1970 had a higher FG% just 3 seasons.

The NBA was completely different in the 60's when Russell played.

The Celtics were taking over 105 shots a game and making shots in the high 40's per game.

The most attempts a game this past season were taken by the Bulls, at 88 shots per game. The Celtics were attempting over 20 more shots, and missing them at a higher clip than any team in the NBA currently. You think that may be why those rebound numbers are so inflated? Russell literally wouldn't have the opportunity to grab those boards.

They're cool numbers and look amazing, but when taken in context it's rather pedestrian. Drummond had 16 rebounds a game this year and nobody bats an eye. He had roughly 40 less shot attempts, and 50-60 fewer misses per game to get those rebounds.

I understand the math behind it. It shows up more when you see 6’5 Elgin Baylor averaging 19 rebounds a game. Where I get lost in the across era debates is that I feel greatness is greatness and players would adapt to the times and be great regardless. I think rules and era dictate a lot things you see looking back. Russell was voted the best player ever in 1980 but the farther and farther we get away from him with fewer and fewer people who saw him play the less he is appreciated.

Would he average 22 rebounds a game. Probably not. Would they go 11-1 in 12 years. Probably not. But he could very easily put together a Duncan like career. And in a team 5 on 5 game, I don’t know what to say to people who don’t understand the value that Duncan and Russell type players provide to an organization. It goes well beyond the box scores.

And what I fear for Lebron is that 30 years from now as players continue down this all around triple double path like Russ or Harden or Simmons and those that come after him, Lebron might be looked at as someone who can’t make it in the future nba

But he is still the best in the world now

Baseball protects and cherishes their all time greats. Basketball is so quick to throw them away for the next prospect. It’s always now is better no matter what.

I disagree with that notion.

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

I understand the math behind it. It shows up more when you see 6’5 Elgin Baylor averaging 19 rebounds a game. Where I get lost in the across era debates is that I feel greatness is greatness and players would adapt to the times and be great regardless. I think rules and era dictate a lot things you see looking back. Russell was voted the best player ever in 1980 but the farther and farther we get away from him with fewer and fewer people who saw him play the less he is appreciated.

Would he average 22 rebounds a game. Probably not. Would they go 11-1 in 12 years. Probably not. But he could very easily put together a Duncan like career. And in a team 5 on 5 game, I don’t know what to say to people who don’t understand the value that Duncan and Russell type players provide to an organization. It goes well beyond the box scores.

And what I fear for Lebron is that 30 years from now as players continue down this all around triple double path like Russ or Harden or Simmons and those that come after him, Lebron might be looked at as someone who can’t make it in the future nba

But he is still the best in the world now

Baseball protects and cherishes their all time greats. Basketball is so quick to throw them away for the next prospect. It’s always now is better no matter what.

I disagree with that notion.

I understand that notion as well. I think Russell 100% could play in today's game, but he wouldn't be regarded as a top-5 player of all time if he had to have his career from 2010-2025. What makes him special in my book is the era he played in.

You threw out the following:

2 NCAA titles
12 trips to the nba finals (11-1)
5 MVP’s
10-0 in game 7s
30pts 40rebs in a game 7
Player/coached for nba title

The bolded above is only impressive without knowing context. Is 5 MVPs really that impressive when the league had 8 teams? Same thing with 12 trips to the finals. Russell had to go through 3 other teams in the East for the majority of his career. The last season of his career he had to best 6 other teams in the East.

It's amazing for the generation, but in context it seems rather pedestrian.

The players you listed above (Russ or Harden or Simmons) are so much more efficient at basketball than most anything from Russell's era it's not even funny. It's not even a statistical thing, but 6'1'' Bob Cousy is not doing anything to stop those players above. You think their stats are inflated now, can you even imagine what they'd be if we took them and threw them in the 60's?

Players like Cousy would obviously adapt if you brought them forward, but he's not going to be any taller. Cousy, an all time great, wouldn't even be drafted in today's NBA.

It's so apples-planets trying to compare eras that we really should just argue players from the same era in my opinion.

[WaiverWire]

One area where I feel like Lebron gets an unfair advantage is that he plays in an era in which hand-checking and physical play is not allowed. Jordan would have averaged more than 40 points a game if he played in today's "no defense allowed" era. Lebron and Jordan both received the benefit of the favorable refereeing, but nobody has ever hammered Lebron with hard fouls like Jordan had to deal with in the 80's and the Bad Boys Pistons. In Jordan's era, there was no such thing as a flagrant foul and hand-checking was allowed. I think one of the reasons Lebron has been so durable is that people have not been allowed to play him very physically. People don't realize that every time the rules change, it materially changes the way the games are played.

[AbraCalabro]

Wilt Chamberlain is the greatest / most dominant of all time and will always be number 1. Forever. FACT.

Bill Russell is and always will be the greatest team player of all time. Forever. FACT.

You guys can pick whoever you want after that, but if you pick any one over those two in that specific order, you're incorrect. FACT.

You're welcome.

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by WaiverWire

One area where I feel like Lebron gets an unfair advantage is that he plays in an era in which hand-checking and physical play is not allowed. Jordan would have averaged more than 40 points a game if he played in today's "no defense allowed" era. Lebron and Jordan both received the benefit of the favorable refereeing, but nobody has ever hammered Lebron with hard fouls like Jordan had to deal with in the 80's and the Bad Boys Pistons. In Jordan's era, there was no such thing as a flagrant foul and hand-checking was allowed. I think one of the reasons Lebron has been so durable is that people have not been allowed to play him very physically. People don't realize that every time the rules change, it materially changes the way the games are played.

This is possible, but Lebron would have gotten his. Unlike MJ, Lebron was bigger than EVERY player on that Bad Boy Pistons team. He had 5 pounds on Lambier. He outweighed MJ by 55 pounds, so while it seems plausible his body wouldn't have held up, I think it probably could have.

He's faster, stronger, and can jump higher than MJ could. If MJ held up, I'm sure Lebron would have been able to.

Can you imagine Lebron hand-checking MJ? Jordan wouldn't be strong enough to back Lebron down, he's not as fast as Lebron and with Lebron able to slow you with his hands you're likely not driving by him. Lebron would be one of the greatest defenders in league history (if he chose to be).

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by AbraCalabro

Wilt Chamberlain is the greatest / most dominant of all time and will always be number 1. Forever. FACT.

Bill Russell is and always will be the greatest team player of all time. Forever. FACT.

You guys can pick whoever you want after that, but if you pick any one over those two in that specific order, you're incorrect. FACT.

You're welcome.

[kukocitb]

Originally Posted by AbraCalabro

Wilt Chamberlain is the greatest / most dominant of all time and will always be number 1. Forever. FACT.

Bill Russell is and always will be the greatest team player of all time. Forever. FACT.

You guys can pick whoever you want after that, but if you pick any one over those two in that specific order, you're incorrect. FACT.

You're welcome.

I don't see Shawn Kemp, Yinka Dare, or Sergei whatever his name is on here at allllll FACT.

[dasiegel]

Originally Posted by AbraCalabro

Wilt Chamberlain is the greatest / most dominant of all time and will always be number 1. Forever. FACT.

Bill Russell is and always will be the greatest team player of all time. Forever. FACT.

You guys can pick whoever you want after that, but if you pick any one over those two in that specific order, you're incorrect. FACT.

You're welcome.

Eddie Lee Wilkins #3 FACT!

[Andy5]

1. MJ
2. LeBron

Also in my opinion, Kobe ain't top 10.