Reprint duplication technology got anyone worried?

[ari_ivy]

I started a thread earlier after seeing a 86 fleer Jordan that was almost impossible to tell apart from an original even with using a magnification tool.

Needless to say, this has me FREAKED out. It almost seems as a matter of time to when technology will allow counterfeiters to create exact duplicates of originals where NO ONE will be able to tell the difference between originals and reprints. Anyone else worried that day is coming faster than most of us expect?

Member chadwich was kind enough to verify the counterfeit and point out the extremly small subtle differences between an original and the fake I came across:

Originally Posted by chadwich

Here is a PSA 10 side by side with this PSA 8.

Check the font on the on the PSA 10. The dash between the Guard -Forward is shifted to the left on the real card. It's perfectly centered on the PSA 8 card. And as I noted before, the "D" in Forward is farther left than it is on the PSA 10 card. Also, from top to bottom the PSA font blocks are centered in the blue area, where as on the PSA 10, it is weighted a bit to the bottom. Lastly, Jordan's bolded name on the PSA 8 is smaller than on the PSA 10 card.

That is definitely not a real Jordan rookie in that PSA 8 case.

If a counterfeiter is THISCLOSE with only very tiny subtle details that seem correctable then how far are we from when there are exact reprints that pass any grader's authenticity evaluation?

Anyone else worried our beloved hobby will be killed off because of BS like this? Is someone out there who can alleviate my concerns and ensure the day of exact reprints are far off or better yet, impossible to achieve?

-Ari.

[ThoseBackPages]

Nope, not worried at all. I collect cards because i enjoy them. That means that i dont always get the highest grades, and that's alright by me.

[the27guy]

Smart post op. You should be freaked out. I'm not an expert on whether the forgers could (or already have) replicated the process and designed the fakes well enough.

But I can tell you one thing, the date a given card was graded should be a much more important factor in what a card is worth than it currently is.

The same thing is even more important with well known 90s inserts that have been faked so well, that even some have been authenticated by the graders. The older the grade, the better.....

Until graded cases can also be perfectly replicated without detection.

[ninjacookies]

You guys realize if they can replicate complex refractor finishes, then your modern run of the mill Panini paper foil cards are far from safe, right?

In essence, nothing is safe if you want to get technical.

I think the worst part is PSA and BGS are letting them slip through the cracks. Make no mistake about it...there is no such thing as a perfect 1:1 copy. China makes varying degrees of fakes from A grade to AAA+ grade. Obviously the AAA+ grades have better materials, attention to detail and quality control, but there will always be very minor differences only an expert can detect. That extends to handbags, shoes, electronics, you name it.

So the real question is...why purchase or send your cards into professional grading services with the expectation that they're being evaluated by experts, when in fact they lack the ability to detect differences as is part of their job description?

[COMCMax]

Be careful with "low grade/condition" ungraded Jordan RC's to. I know with vintage baseball one of the oldest tricks in the book is to take a reprint and beat it up. With the prices these rookies are commanding it wouldn't surprise me if we start seeing some pop up.

This Jordan PSA 1 (MK) on the other hand..is the real deal.. I kind of like it. Anyone else finding themselves hoarding MJ RC's since this craze started? Is this how the tulip mania started back in the 1600's lol?

[xavieronly1]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

I think the worst part is PSA and BGS are letting them slip through the cracks. Make no mistake about it...there is no such thing as a perfect 1:1 copy. China makes varying degrees of fakes from A grade to AAA+ grade. Obviously the AAA+ grades have better materials, attention to detail and quality control, but there will always be very minor differences only an expert can detect. That extends to handbags, shoes, electronics, you name it.

When Chinese made a AAA+ grade counterfeit, they did it by buying the real product. Then they tried their best to copy the material, the feel, the touch.. etc. However, they still don't have the original material list, the original cutting sheet, and the original molding.

However, we already pass the phase of AAA+ grade counterfeit. The Chinese factory that makes REAL product (with original cutting sheet/materials and the same workers) is making counterfeit product on the side. It is sort of selling the trade secret.

By this, the counterfeit product is just as good as the original because it comes from the same factory and same workers. The only difference would be the QA checking. The real product was done by US/EU. The counterfeit product was done by Chinese.

[MJGOAT23]

Didn't someone think it was a photoshop job...so, if you actually buy the card in question, you might not actually receive exactly what it looks like in the scan/photo...but then again, i guess they could just use a photo of a real one and send a fake and that would be easier. my head hurts lol

[Idol]

Originally Posted by COMCMax

Be careful with "low grade/condition" ungraded Jordan RC's to. I know with vintage baseball one of the oldest tricks in the book is to take a reprint and beat it up. With the prices these rookies are commanding it wouldn't surprise me if we start seeing some pop up.

This Jordan PSA 1 (MK) on the other hand..is the real deal.. I kind of like it. Anyone else finding themselves hoarding MJ RC's since this craze started? Is this how the tulip mania started back in the 1600's lol?

Somebody at PSA must've been having a bad day. Sure the card is a 1 but hot damn they slapped the MK on the label too! LOL

[bruce76]

I personally believe the Jordan 86 Fleer RC is on a huge bubble. You always have to be careful of anything like this (I don't care if its a house, gold and silver, stocks). Be cautious when you see signs like....rapid upward growth, everyone and your uncle is buying these, there is a desperation for everyone to own a Jordan RC, and everyone is unified in the same speak, (ie- How many times have we heard things like....."The Jordan rookie is the most iconic card, and its only going to go up in value., etc..." Be very careful, if your in the market into buying one of these. Personally I would wait. Remember you always go against the grain.....when everyone is buying, you sell, and when everyone is selling.....that's the time you buy.

And yes, it is concerning with the advancement of technology that these fakes are getting to be just as good as the originals. This only compounds the problem. Cause when the market is hot, all the crooks want in. As a result more and more fakes are going to flood market. They will be mixed in with the authentic ones and it will dilute the market.

[phdbeckett]

I still think there are plenty of detection methods out there, outside of visual, that will keep us safe. I will post more about this in another thread soon.

[Ottomatic]

If technology ever gets so good that cards can be perfectly replicated, earlier graded stuff is going to go up a lot. Almost makes me want to send everything I own in for grading right now, just so there's never a doubt. Sad really.

[T3sT]

Did fleer using more than one workshop to print this product in 1986? Maybe that two cards is coming from different workshop from different printing plate.

is this scenario possible?

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by xavieronly1

However, we already pass the phase of AAA+ grade counterfeit. The Chinese factory that makes REAL product (with original cutting sheet/materials and the same workers) is making counterfeit product on the side. It is sort of selling the trade secret.

This is also true. But in this case, the counterfeits cost almost as much as the originals as the factories know they have house advantage and the upper hand. So there's very little incentive for people to purchase them unless you are talking about discontinued/sold out releases. Also, a great deal of the factories that work after hours off the clock still lack the discipline to create the same quality, simply because they're pumping out product without the same QA and documented control required by their employers. My trust in anything out of Guangdong is pretty much non existent, but dealing with an OG factory that assures you the same stringent procedures is pretty much laughable.

I'm thinking these are fake PSA and BGS holders. Those are probably the easiest to create because...well...they're made in China and are simple plastic molds. About the only thing they have to do is perfect the PSA labels. And how hard is that? lol. They don't even have to use the new hologram labels, just steal a number off an old label and the casual investor most likely won't suspect a thing.

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by phdbeckett

I still think there are plenty of detection methods out there, outside of visual, that will keep us safe. I will post more about this in another thread soon.

I agree. There will never be perfect 1:1 copies. Ever. Whether it takes a paper expert, a jewelers loop with ink analysis, or careful side by side comparison with a legit copy...there's always going to be something different.

It's just a lot of footwork and headache for the buyer. But if you're dropping that much money, you should be willing to take the steps needed to protect yourself.

[Jasondr91]

The fakes are getting better. But to anyone that owns many base 86 Fleer cards, they have a certain card stock, feel and even smell to them.

I have always been able to detect a fake 86 just by the feel of the card, and the surface. Hold one up to the light against a known legit 86 base card. Fakes haven't been able to duplicate everything..................yet.

[Starman101]

Originally Posted by bruce76

I personally believe the Jordan 86 Fleer RC is on a huge bubble. You always have to be careful of anything like this (I don't care if its a house, gold and silver, stocks). Be cautious when you see signs like....rapid upward growth, everyone and your uncle is buying these, there is a desperation for everyone to own a Jordan RC, and everyone is unified in the same speak, (ie- How many times have we heard things like....."The Jordan rookie is the most iconic card, and its only going to go up in value., etc..." Be very careful, if your in the market into buying one of these. Personally I would wait. Remember you always go against the grain.....when everyone is buying, you sell, and when everyone is selling.....that's the time you buy.

And yes, it is concerning with the advancement of technology that these fakes are getting to be just as good as the originals. This only compounds the problem. Cause when the market is hot, all the crooks want in. As a result more and more fakes are going to flood market. They will be mixed in with the authentic ones and it will dilute the market.

Smart man

[the27guy]

Originally Posted by Starman101

Smart man

He is smart.

But remember that exactly the same things can be said about your star xrc.

Listen to the smart people guys. Don't get caught up in the hype. Be fearful when others are greedy.

[nman84]

It's pretty simple guys, the fake ones burn green when you light them on fire. The real ones don't.

[the27guy]

Originally Posted by nman84

It's pretty simple guys, the fake ones burn green when you light them on fire. The real ones don't.

Lol. Exactly.

[Starman101]

Originally Posted by the27guy

He is smart.

But remember that exactly the same things can be said about your star xrc.

Listen to the smart people guys. Don't get caught up in the hype. Be fearful when others are greedy.

Love the Warren Buffet reference there

Honestly the Star doesn't reek of counterfeits when the total population of 101s graded still remains under 500

20,000 vs 500 is a BIG difference

Besides I'm keeping it for the long haul, no flipping or consignment firms or any of that stuff

Contrary to popular collector belief, the Star is actually not a target for counterfeits largely because for so long they were all thought of as being counterfeited! LOL!

If you don't believe me, go ask PSA!

How's that for Karma???

[duron]

[GC1980]

What happens when the buying gangs start running up the price counterfeits?? I see that happening once the real ones collapse and are completely worthless. The manipulators will turn to the fakes and make them more desirable than the real ones. Then will there be fakes of the fakes???

Mind = blown!

[CastleBeachCards]

I strongly suggest we start a forum (sub forum) or thread and have collectors post pictures of cards they are considering buying that are known to be counterfeited or even speculated to be counterfeit.
Also, the collectors that know what to look for should educate those of us who would like to be able to identify the differences between real and fakes. That way if the "experts" are unavailable, we can rally as a community and help each other out.
I'm sure it will be a very busy forum and we will all be better educated and.................... "Keep the Hobby Healthy" <--------------(somebody make a shirt)

[duron]

Originally Posted by Kenfancypants

I'm sure it will be a very busy forum and we will all be better educated and.................... "Keep the Hobby Healthy" <--------------(somebody make a shirt)

Don't give LoveIt any ideas.

[bruce76]

Originally Posted by Starman101

Love the Warren Buffet reference there

Honestly the Star doesn't reek of counterfeits when the total population of 101s graded still remains under 500

20,000 vs 500 is a BIG difference

Besides I'm keeping it for the long haul, no flipping or consignment firms or any of that stuff

Contrary to popular collector belief, the Star is actually not a target for counterfeits largely because for so long they were all thought of as being counterfeited! LOL!

If you don't believe me, go ask PSA!




How's that for Karma???

Agreed. The Star card is hot as well. But not nearly at the level of the 86 Fleer which is in dangerous territory. I personally like the Star better anyway, and would invest in that one over the 86 Fleer.