QUESTONS for those who feel Tim Brady is the GOAT

[Bassplayah101]

Originally Posted by Jameis1of1

What makes Brady rank higher on your individual GOAT lists than the above players?

Because hes done whats hes done in the era of free agency. Each SB team was different, and the last 3 SB appearances, they were vastly different from one another.

[moose84]

Originally Posted by corndog

This man.

Originally Posted by cromartie3145

This +100000000

At the very least, hands down the greatest QB of all time. Revolutionized the QB position and played in an era where lineman couldn't use their hands to block, there was no roughing the passer, no facemask, no pass interference, no defensive holding, etc.

Truly remarkable what he was able to accomplish.

Yeah I like Unitas as well, one of my favorites

First to throw 30 TDs in a seasn and 30,000 passing yards in his career

[moose84]

Originally Posted by Bassplayah101

Because hes done whats hes done in the era of free agency. Each SB team was different, and the last 3 SB appearances, they were vastly different from one another.

I will always give TB his respect. Some of those receiving corps he won SB's with was average to say the least

[MFaulkCollector]

This is actually the best written/most logical threads like this ever made...... and of course people want to whine and cry because poor Tom is not considered the greatest by everyone. Look at the evidence given by the original poster. He has some reasons and criteria that actually make a lot of sense.

Brady is not a player who has had a career without failure. Blowing a 3 TD lead in Indy when the Colts won in 06 was a collapse. If Brady is responsible for wins, he is responsible for that loss. Tom was able to score just 14 points in the Giants undefeated Super Bowl with at worst the second best receiver ever, and Welker was an all pro WR that year too..... 14 points are on Brady, they score 35 in the regular season... that is his loss if you want to give him "credit" for the Rams.

I mean the facts are facts; his teams have sh*t the bed numerous times over the years; as have every single player's teams in NFL history. That is the point of a thread like this. In a vacuum Brady is not a better QB than Rodgers, his physical tools and athletic ability don't match up. Does that mean Rodgers is better, not necessarily but it's just a point of discussion.

There are big deficiencies for every QB when you talk about the GOAT. Montana was surrounded by ridiculous talent, I mean crazy good talent. For QB's, he probably has the least negatives in a conversation like this. Brady although winning the SB's that he did early on... didn't become the superstar that he is today until 06-present when you look at the stats. He emerged from a game manager in 00-05 into an epic passing machine from roughly 06-present. In that latter span he lost an AFC championship game by pissing away a huge halftime lead in 06; he lost two super bowls to the Giants in which he was unable to figure out how to score more than 14 points against a 10-6 Giants team (keep in mind the NE team was the best offense in NFL history). If you want to praise Brady and give him credit for the Rams, Eagles, and Panthers SB's... you must give him blame for the 06 Indy game, both Giants SB's.. plus other shortcomings when the Patriots were expected to win and did not. You can't have it both ways

So in reality, picking a QB for this type of thing is very difficult due to the circumstances of how players are judged. Jerry Rice may seem like a logical choice due to his all pro selections and super crazy stat lines..... but if you step back and look... He was thrown to by an All-Pro QB 17 seasons of the 20 that he played. All 3 of his QB's over that time won MVP's. Montana was a three time all pro and MVP, Young was a three time all pro and MVP, and Gannon was a two time all Pro and MVP. So, although Rice was really good, he was always around MVP talent at the position.

So, when you look at the greatest of the great, really the GOAT in my mind is a simple question. Jim Brown leaves little to no doubt that he is the greatest player of all time. In 9 years he led the league in rushing 8 times and was an 8 time first team all pro.... he won 3 MVPs... and for you "team guys" he won a championship. Also; KEEP IN MIND he did all of this when teams ran the ball all the time. He lined up in the rushing era and was the best. That is my opinion...... for what it's worth

[Bassplayah101]

Originally Posted by MFaulkCollector

So, when you look at the greatest of the great, really the GOAT in my mind is a simple question. Jim Brown leaves little to no doubt that he is the greatest player of all time. In 9 years he led the league in rushing 8 times and was an 8 time first team all pro.... he won 3 MVPs... and for you "team guys" he won a championship. Also; KEEP IN MIND he did all of this when teams ran the ball all the time. He lined up in the rushing era and was the best. That is my opinion...... for what it's worth

But how was he able to do all that?
A fantastic offensive line, and great blocking.

The first time Tom was given an all-pro, and one of the best receivers in the last 20 years in Randy Moss, he went and broke the TD record.

Brady has done far more with far less around him, and that's an actual fact.


Good post, and valid points, BTW.

[moose84]

Originally Posted by MFaulkCollector

Brady is not a player who has had a career without failure. Blowing a 3 TD lead in Indy when the Colts won in 06 was a collapse. If Brady is responsible for wins, he is responsible for that loss. Tom was able to score just 14 points in the Giants undefeated Super Bowl with at worst the second best receiver ever, and Welker was an all pro WR that year too..... 14 points are on Brady, they score 35 in the regular season... that is his loss if you want to give him "credit" for the Rams.

OP is right as this is a team sport, but the bold part is true because in this "team" sport, the QBs get the glory when they win and the blame when they lose. Thats just the way it is.

[MFaulkCollector]

Originally Posted by Bassplayah101

But how was he able to do all that?
A fantastic offensive line, and great blocking.

The first time Tom was given an all-pro, and one of the best receivers in the last 20 years in Randy Moss, he went and broke the TD record.

Brady has done far more with far less around him, and that's an actual fact.


Good post, and valid points, BTW.

You are certainly correct.... nobody can do it all by themselves... and that makes a topic like this very interesting when people make valid points and strong arguments. I really enjoy reading good posts with solid logic and evidence. I just think the deck is stacked against a QB in this type of conversation... mainly because of the "team" concept argument and the fact the the best QB's to ever play the game are nowhere near the athletes of other major positions. It's just a tough argument from many aspects

[Stifle]

In today's NFL, it's all about attempting to bring as much PARITY as possible. Many of the great QB's of the previous decades didn't have to lose multiple key players to other teams because winners want to be paid. Brady has been winning with a complete overhaul to the Patriots. Stats are important but give me the guy who can drop a dime on a TE sprinting 30 yards downfield being double covered on a 4th and long with just seconds left in the game. When it comes down to being able LEAD a team as well as consistency, Brady wears the CROWN.

[MFaulkCollector]

Originally Posted by Stifle

In today's NFL, it's all about attempting to bring as much PARITY as possible. Many of the great QB's of the previous decades didn't have to lose multiple key players to other teams because winners want to be paid. Brady has been winning with a complete overhaul to the Patriots. Stats are important but give me the guy who can drop a dime on a TE sprinting 30 yards downfield being double covered on a 4th and long with just seconds left in the game. When it comes down to being able LEAD a team as well as consistency, Brady wears the CROWN.

Peyton Manning was the First team All Pro QB 8 times and a 5 Time MVP during the dominant years of Brady..... that seems pretty consistent to me

To throw 500 plus TD's and win 200 games I would imagine he had a few fourth quarter comebacks as well; maybe even a few clutch 4th down conversions late in games. I feel like Manning may have been a pretty good leader as well.

If the only thing that matters each year is the 4 possible playoff games then Brady is fine.... but Manning is good enough when the chips are down; he makes sound decisions. I will take the 8 All Pro Teams, 5 MVPS, 2 Super Bowls to the 2 All Pro Teams, 2 MVPs, and 4 Super Bowls when you look at everything in the big picture.

Especially when you look at the stats and see Brady only had 6 years total in his career that he was not better than 2:1 TD;INT Ratio.... yet 3 of those years were early SB winning years...... His best 8 statistical years were after those 3 rings when he was able to get just one more

[Jameis1of1]

Originally Posted by the mesiah

I was hoping/waiting for the Lawrence Taylor synopsis on why he was included in the conversation for voting, that must have been for me to prob be the only vote ,

LT was a bad, bad, bad man. He deserves to be in consideration.

Originally Posted by ejs23

No serious football fan, at least outside of Brady's family, thinks Tom Brady is the GOAT.

If you believe he is the GOAT, then at least admit to yourself that you're biased as a Patriots fan. And if you still think he's GOAT after that, then consider a sport that's easier for you to follow... I hear drone racing is a thing now.

Brady is a great QB, though his reputation is forever tarnished by all the cheating NE has done. But even without the cheating it's laughable to consider him GOAT. It reminds me of people who think the most current pop star or actor is the greatest of all time in their respective fields.... because their fans don't know the history of all the greats that came before them.

Wow, that's a bit harsh. I do understand your overall point, especially as I believe most casual fans and even a lot of dedicated current fans have literally no idea who a guy like Otto Graham even was ... but ... Brady is in the conversation at least and that's nothing to mock or sneeze at imho.

Originally Posted by RogerGodahell

Otto Graham played in the pre superbowl era when there were only like 12 teams and there were no playoffs just a championship game. What he did was still amazing but Brady has been to 10 afc championships and 6 super bowls with a playoff system. Back then the 2 teams with the best record just played a championship game. If that was still the case Brady would have already been in like i dont even know how many championships, a lot. Manning would have more appearances as well.

I'm not sure you're right about that. I highly doubt Brady has led the Patriots to 10 "best records" in the AFC ... he may have, I don't know, but I doubt it ... and even if he did, it wasn't 10 years in a row like Otto.

Originally Posted by moose84

Never really hear that many people say he is the NFL GOAT, usually the QB GOAT

to me the NFL GOAT is Mr. Rice

EDIT: And QB GOAT is probably Montana

I agree that if I had to name a GOAT it would be Jerry Rice ... to me he is like the Wayne Gretzky of the NFL and that's saying a lot.

Originally Posted by Chaddie84

I think Jameis Winston is the GOAT

Hahahaha ... maybe one day

He is the GOAT NCAA freshman QB without a doubt though, and that's a pretty awesome thing ...

Originally Posted by Bassplayah101

Despite football being the epitome of a "team" sport, Tommy has led 6 of them to the superbowl, and each team was different, some were vastly different.

This IMO is one of the main reasons I consider him the GOAT.

Even the most vocal of Brady haters would secretly love to have him on their team.. Dont deny it because WE ALL KNOW its true.

EDIT: Funny, Ive just noticed it in this thread, and several others around these boards since I joined.
Whenever there is a Brady (GOAT) thread, there's always haters that resort to insults, name calling, and the like.. Psycologists will tell you that when adults resort to that type of behavior in similar types of debates, and situations its because they know they're wrong.

My special word of the day is: LOGIC
Logic is definitely a "taught" skill..

I agree with you 100% about adults that slip out and resort to childishness ... it is generally because they know they're wrong and don't have truth on their side to back them up ... though I imagine sometimes it's just because they're a**ho*es

However, I disagree that everyone would want Brady on their team ... I doubt there is a 49'er fan alive that would rather have Brady over Montana in a Super Bowl game.

Originally Posted by MFaulkCollector

Peyton Manning was the First team All Pro QB 8 times and a 5 Time MVP during the dominant years of Brady..... that seems pretty consistent to me

To throw 500 plus TD's and win 200 games I would imagine he had a few fourth quarter comebacks as well; maybe even a few clutch 4th down conversions late in games. I feel like Manning may have been a pretty good leader as well.

If the only thing that matters each year is the 4 possible playoff games then Brady is fine.... but Manning is good enough when the chips are down; he makes sound decisions. I will take the 8 All Pro Teams, 5 MVPS, 2 Super Bowls to the 2 All Pro Teams, 2 MVPs, and 4 Super Bowls when you look at everything in the big picture.

Especially when you look at the stats and see Brady only had 6 years total in his career that he was not better than 2:1 TD;INT Ratio.... yet 3 of those years were early SB winning years...... His best 8 statistical years were after those 3 rings when he was able to get just one more

The above is a very valid post with some very hard to refute stats ... and it goes to my point of "rings" not being a good measure of whether a player is an individually great player. During Brady's EIGHT best years he only won one ring ... outside of those years he won three ... that says a lot.

People need to realize that players do NOT win rings ... teams do. Tom Brady, Joe Montana, etc., never won a ring ... the Patriots and 49'ers teams won rings, and they happened to be members of those teams.

I mean, Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson have rings and Dan Marino and Dan Fouts do not ... everyone should really think about that.

Originally Posted by MFaulkCollector

This is actually the best written/most logical threads like this ever made......

Thank you

and of course people want to whine and cry because poor Tom is not considered the greatest by everyone. Look at the evidence given by the original poster. He has some reasons and criteria that actually make a lot of sense.

Brady is not a player who has had a career without failure. Blowing a 3 TD lead in Indy when the Colts won in 06 was a collapse. If Brady is responsible for wins, he is responsible for that loss. Tom was able to score just 14 points in the Giants undefeated Super Bowl with at worst the second best receiver ever, and Welker was an all pro WR that year too..... 14 points are on Brady, they score 35 in the regular season... that is his loss if you want to give him "credit" for the Rams.

That is a very valid point and is one of the reasons I believe many people will always consider Montana better than Brady ... because he never lost the big game. Now, I'm not saying that is why I believe Montana was better, but it is a valid point for many.

I mean the facts are facts; his teams have sh*t the bed numerous times over the years; as have every single player's teams in NFL history. That is the point of a thread like this. In a vacuum Brady is not a better QB than Rodgers, his physical tools and athletic ability don't match up. Does that mean Rodgers is better, not necessarily but it's just a point of discussion.

Another very good point. I always like to think what player would be best if his lineman and receivers were garbage ... and in such a situation I certainly couldn't rank Brady ahead of a guy like Rodgers, Elway, etc.,.

There are big deficiencies for every QB when you talk about the GOAT. Montana was surrounded by ridiculous talent, I mean crazy good talent. For QB's, he probably has the least negatives in a conversation like this. Brady although winning the SB's that he did early on... didn't become the superstar that he is today until 06-present when you look at the stats. He emerged from a game manager in 00-05 into an epic passing machine from roughly 06-present. In that latter span he lost an AFC championship game by pissing away a huge halftime lead in 06; he lost two super bowls to the Giants in which he was unable to figure out how to score more than 14 points against a 10-6 Giants team (keep in mind the NE team was the best offense in NFL history). If you want to praise Brady and give him credit for the Rams, Eagles, and Panthers SB's... you must give him blame for the 06 Indy game, both Giants SB's.. plus other shortcomings when the Patriots were expected to win and did not. You can't have it both ways

I agree.

So in reality, picking a QB for this type of thing is very difficult due to the circumstances of how players are judged. Jerry Rice may seem like a logical choice due to his all pro selections and super crazy stat lines..... but if you step back and look... He was thrown to by an All-Pro QB 17 seasons of the 20 that he played. All 3 of his QB's over that time won MVP's. Montana was a three time all pro and MVP, Young was a three time all pro and MVP, and Gannon was a two time all Pro and MVP. So, although Rice was really good, he was always around MVP talent at the position.

I would also agree with this, to a point ...

So, when you look at the greatest of the great, really the GOAT in my mind is a simple question. Jim Brown leaves little to no doubt that he is the greatest player of all time. In 9 years he led the league in rushing 8 times and was an 8 time first team all pro.... he won 3 MVPs... and for you "team guys" he won a championship. Also; KEEP IN MIND he did all of this when teams ran the ball all the time. He lined up in the rushing era and was the best. That is my opinion...... for what it's worth

I wouldn't really argue with you as there is a great case that can be made for Jim Brown. I would ask why you rank him ahead of another Brown great, Otto Graham, though?

Also ... it sounds like you absolutely rank players based on individual greatness rather than "team success" which I respect and personally agree with. That said ... there is one guy that I didn't even put on the list of poll choices that I probably should have ... BARRY SANDERS. Barry is the only player I ever watched play that literally made me believe he could gain 1,000 yards with 5 grocery store clerks blocking for him, no FB at all and a QB who couldn't make a Pro Bowl team if there was only two other QB's in the league.

Barry literally took my breath away and was the closest thing I've ever seen to a "one man offense" for what it's worth.

By the way exactly 50 votes have been cast so far, and 42% feel Brady is the GOAT while 58% do not ... however to the previous posters comment about people not knowing the history of the game and being impressed with the "latest great" rather than the "old greats" ... Jim Brown and Otto Graham have COMBINED to receive just 4 votes which is sort of absurd. Again, everyone ... Graham led his team to 10 title games in 10 years and won 7 championships ... that is mind boggling ... and Jim Brown absolutely dominated the league and was a 1st team all-pro nearly every season he played!

[exitmusicblue]

Hahahhahahahhhahhahahhhhhahahhahahhaahhahhhhhhahahahahahahahuahahhahahahahahahhahahahahahhaahhaahhahh

[Splendid]

Tom Brady is great..... No doubt about it. But as far as the GOAT....? He's not even the greatest QB of all time. He may not even be the best QB of his era....

[hoopster3977]

///////////////////////////

[hoopster3977]

Originally Posted by corndog

This man.

Originally Posted by cromartie3145

This +100000000

At the very least, hands down the greatest QB of all time. Revolutionized the QB position and played in an era where lineman couldn't use their hands to block, there was no roughing the passer, no facemask, no pass interference, no defensive holding, etc.

Truly remarkable what he was able to accomplish.

This guy, and shame to the OP for not including him. I guess he's a bit wet between the ears still.

[pac213up]

Out of all the players listed I have never seen a guy with as much individual and team success as Brady across multiple systems over his career. The offensive scheme has been revamped at least 3 times from the time Brady started to the point it is today. He has excelled in all of them.

[iplumb1963]

team has been caught numerous times cheating......asterick him.......

[IamRalpho]

Originally Posted by iplumb1963

team has been caught numerous times cheating......asterick him.......

Why cant you spell asterisks?

I love that the OP put Tim, kinda sums up this entire site and their view to the Patriots

[Brobocop]

Tom Brady is by far my favorite QB so let's get that out of the way. Here is something though that I find interesting, Peyton Manning went to four Super Bowls with four different head coaches (Kubiak, Fox, Dungy, and Caldwell). Maybe that isn't worth mentioning but I think it is. Four systems, four different mentalities, and still he found success. I'm not saying this makes Peyton the greatest ever, what I am getting at is it's so hard to compare players since every player plays in different circumstances. Would Brady find success under four different head coaches? Would Peyton thrive in the controlling environment Belichick has? How would Joe Montana do against today's defenses? We will never know, hence, there will never be a consensus greatest ever.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Bassplayah101

But how was he able to do all that?
A fantastic offensive line, and great blocking.

The first time Tom was given an all-pro, and one of the best receivers in the last 20 years in Randy Moss, he went and broke the TD record.

Brady has done far more with far less around him, and that's an actual fact.


Good post, and valid points, BTW.

Brady hasn't done more with less. His career playoff passer rating is 88.0, 15th all time behind Aikman, Flacco, Eli, Romo, Mark Sanchez, etc. For all the hate Patriots fans throw at Peyton choking in the playoffs, his rating is 87.4, basically the same as Brady. If Manning is a choker, then so is Brady and who won last year?

My goat is Jerry Rice. The qb/wr argument is like the chicken and egg. Rice played with all pro qbs, but who benefitted? Having watched the 49ers play live many times, I believe it is Montana and Young. Rice was almost always open. Without Rice, Montana has 2 SBs and I doubt Young is ever an AP. Also those 88-95 49ers teams had a ton of talent. Jim Brown would be the only other guy close to Rice.

[IamRalpho]

Originally Posted by rats60

Brady hasn't done more with less. His career playoff passer rating is 88.0, 15th all time behind Aikman, Flacco, Eli, Romo, Mark Sanchez, etc. For all the hate Patriots fans throw at Peyton choking in the playoffs, his rating is 87.4, basically the same as Brady. If Manning is a choker, then so is Brady and who won last year?

My goat is Jerry Rice. The qb/wr argument is like the chicken and egg. Rice played with all pro qbs, but who benefitted? Having watched the 49ers play live many times, I believe it is Montana and Young. Rice was almost always open. Without Rice, Montana has 2 SBs and I doubt Young is ever an AP. Also those 88-95 49ers teams had a ton of talent. Jim Brown would be the only other guy close to Rice.

You have no problem with Rice admitting he cheated?

And I am not even trying to get into this debate, but if you think Rice is the best ever, are you okay with the cheating?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by IamRalpho

You have no problem with Rice admitting he cheated?

And I am not even trying to get into this debate, but if you think Rice is the best ever, are you okay with the cheating?

I missed where the NFL suspended him, fined the 49ers and took 1st round draft picks from the 49ers. Rice denies it just like Peyton denies he took HGH. Until the NFL or someone besides Patriots fans find something on either I won't call them cheaters. You are still really desperate though. Keep throwing mud, maybe one day it may stick.

[IamRalpho]

Originally Posted by rats60

I missed where the NFL suspended him, fined the 49ers and took 1st round draft picks from the 49ers. Rice denies it just like Peyton denies he took HGH. Until the NFL or someone besides Patriots fans find something on either I won't call them cheaters. You are still really desperate though. Keep throwing mud, maybe one day it may stick.

Jerry Rice admitted he cheated, just because he wasnt suspended doesnt mean he didnt do it, are you kidding me right now? You talk about being a homer you totally avoided the truth and insulted me.

Was Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens ever suspended? Are they in the Hall of Fame?

I think a 10 year old might use the excuse "So what if I stole, I wasnt arrested!"

Cris Carter: If Jerry Rice used stickum, he cheated - CBSSports.com

[rats60]

Originally Posted by IamRalpho

Jerry Rice admitted he cheated, just because he wasnt suspended doesnt mean he didnt do it, are you kidding me right now? You talk about being a homer you totally avoided the truth and insulted me.

Was Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens ever suspended? Are they in the Hall of Fame?

I think a 10 year old might use the excuse "So what if I stole, I wasnt arrested!"

Cris Carter: If Jerry Rice used stickum, he cheated - CBSSports.com

Directly from the NFL rulebook "players may wear gloves with a tackified surface if such tacky substance does not adhere to the football or otherwise cause handling problems for players."

Jerry Rice says he did not cheat. You say he did, it is upon you to prove it. How did he violate this rule? Do you have a football from a 49ers game with substance on it. Do you have any players or referees saying this was a problem during 49er games? What is your proof because your first statement is a lie.

[RedSoxFan28]

Originally Posted by rats60

Directly from the NFL rulebook "players may wear gloves with a tackified surface if such tacky substance does not adhere to the football or otherwise cause handling problems for players."

Jerry Rice says he did not cheat. You say he did, it is upon you to prove it. How did he violate this rule? Do you have a football from a 49ers game with substance on it. Do you have any players or referees saying this was a problem during 49er games? What is your proof because your first statement is a lie.

When was the rule added to the rulebook?



" “I know this might be a little illegal, guys, but you put a little spray, a little stickum on them, to make sure that texture is a little sticky,” Rice said, laughing.

It wasn’t a little illegal, it was a lot illegal. As explained in the ESPN feature, gloves were introduced to football after the NFL decided to outlaw the stuff that guys like Fred Biletnikoff and Lester Hayes (pictured) would spread copiously on their hands, and elsewhere. Rice admitted in the feature that he enhanced the surface of gloves approved for use in the NFL with a substance that would make it easier to catch the ball. "



Rice admitted to cheating, yet you still say he didn't.

[RogerGodahell]

Jerry Rice says he used stickem, what more proof is needed?