MJ has 5 MVPs, LeBron 4, Kobe 1 - is one of these not like the other two?
 

It seems to me that to be high up in the GOAT discussion, you should have at least 2-3 MVP awards. Even if you finish high in career [URL="https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/nba_mvp_shares.html"]Award Shares[/URL] and being most instrumental to Rings won (2 Finals MVPs in Kobe's case), how does Kobe not rank higher in fandom, hobby following, etc., than, say, Tim Duncan? I don't see Duncan being brought up along with MJ and Bron in the GOAT discussions. Anyway, look at combined MVPs won, peak MVP shares, rings most instrumental in winning (finals MVPs), those kinds of things, . . . Kobe is top 10 in basketball accomplishment and yet top 3 in hobby status? Is it non-basketball-accomplishment-related 'intangibles'? Did the '96 Chrome Refractor have anything to do with Kobe's hobby status over and above his top-10-level accomplishments? Why not Larry Bird over Kobe? Look at his mid-'80s dominance ffs, did Kobe reach that level?

I'unno, someone make the case for why Kobe might be a higher collecting priority than a Tim or Larry. (Speaking of which, the flower I am smoking at the moment is not Gelato #33 or 'Gelato Larry,' but it is good stuff anyway. Apple Fritter actually. :D )

[QUOTE=GOATcards;17279029]I'unno, someone make the case for why Kobe might be a higher collecting priority than a Tim or Larry. (Speaking of which, the flower I am smoking at the moment is not Gelato #33 or 'Gelato Larry,' but it is good stuff anyway. Apple Fritter actually. :D )[/QUOTE]

Kobe was an iconic player. In some cases hobby status and fan appeal >>> achievement. Think Jeter, Griffey Jr., and now Curry. Fan favorite types that play above the rim or have limitless range and a certain flair to their game are simply more collectable than a guy like Duncan.

Talent.... Franchise... Attitude... Determination.. Swag. Kobe Bean Bryant went at you and did not give a %&$^!!! It made his fans extremely loyal to him and garnered the respect of his peers. He did what all fans want their superstars to do. Work as hard as he possibly could. Dude left it all on the floor. Rip to a legend. Should have won at least one more MVP.

This discussion has been had many a times.

Hobby GOAT discussion is not the same as actual GOAT discussion.

[QUOTE=GOATcards;17279029]I'unno, someone make the case for why Kobe might be a higher collecting priority than a Tim or Larry. (Speaking of which, the flower I am smoking at the moment is not Gelato #33 or 'Gelato Larry,' but it is good stuff anyway. Apple Fritter actually. :D )[/QUOTE]

The hobby is a popularity contest.

Want a nice Jason Williams card you better open up the bag. I guess he made the All-Rookie squad that one time.....

[QUOTE=ballhawkdawk;17279039]Kobe was an iconic player. In some cases hobby status and fan appeal >>> achievement. Think Jeter, Griffey Jr., and now Curry. Fan favorite types that play above the rim or have limitless range and a certain flair to their game are simply more collectable than a guy like Duncan.[/QUOTE]

And Larry Legend?

Kobe benefited from nba expansion to Asian markets and Laker mystique. He was also an exciting, ridiculously technically proficient scoring guard in the mold of MJ who won a lot. Add in his mamba mentality and branding aspects which appeal to large portion of audience. Mvp awards are nice but kinda overrated imo, at the mercy of the media (which can be fickle and prone to narrative capture). Kobe being part of hobby's collecting holy trinity makes complete sense to me.

[QUOTE=GOATcards;17279183]And Larry Legend?[/QUOTE]

I don't see pre 90s players as highly collectable just due to the limited number of cards available. Bird retired before they started making cool cards. Just my opinion.

In the GOAT discussions (although someone has distinguished basketball GOAT from hobby GOAT), the tippy top of the cream of the crop have something like 3 MVPS or more and 3 Finals MVPs or more. If we narrowed it to that, we get MJ, Bron, Magic . . . I think that's it? If we loosened it up a bit and made it 2 MVPs and 2 Finals MVPs, that includes Larry Bird, Tim Duncan, Kareem . . . (Wilt got one Finals MVP but would have gotten another in '67 if they had Finals MVPs then; Russell bascially couldn't have been awarded any Finals MVPs, Shaq and Kobe have at least 2 Finals MVPs each but "only" 1 regular-season MVP each (losing to the likes of Allen Iverson, Duncan, Nash, and LeBron).

I'm just saying, the competition gets pretty tight, up there in the top 5-10. Kobe's a top-10 legend, just trying to get a grasp on his top-3 hobby status.

1. MJ
2. Lebron
3. Kobe (Distant third in this discussion)

Kobe's fans are very defensive but don't see how they can argue the above.

[QUOTE=ballhawkdawk;17279207]I don't see pre 90s players as highly collectable just due to the limited number of cards available. Bird retired before they started making cool cards. Just my opinion.[/QUOTE]

100%. I'd be chasing Bird and Magic like mad if they had cool 90s inserts and parallels. Personally don't really care for 80s cards, for most part.

Kobe's top 3 hobby love not top 3 all time

[QUOTE=ballhawkdawk;17279207]I don't see pre 90s players as highly collectable just due to the limited number of cards available. Bird retired before they started making cool cards. Just my opinion.[/QUOTE]

I'unno, '69T Lew Alcindor seems like a pretty cool card.

The '80T Larry/Magic is a questionable 3-panel deal, yes, yes. And the Magic pic could at least be closer-up. Whatevs. Coolness has most to do with the player on the card, most of the time.

I've got quite a bit of mid-'80s Star Co. Bird material on my wishlist. Turns out I have multiple copies of his 81T which is kinda iconic actually. :)!

[QUOTE=kcroyalsfan8515;17279051]Talent.... Franchise... Attitude... Determination.. Swag. Kobe Bean Bryant went at you and did not give a %&$^!!! It made his fans extremely loyal to him and garnered the respect of his peers. He did what all fans want their superstars to do. Work as hard as he possibly could. Dude left it all on the floor. ...[/QUOTE]

Except the playoff game where he refused to shoot in the second half and the Lakers lost.

Kobe will always be overrated as a basketball player, but like Iverson, an iconic alltime NBA superstar.

[QUOTE=jerrygarcia;17279231]1. MJ
2. Lebron
3. Kobe (Distant third in this discussion)

Kobe's fans are very defensive but don't see how they can argue the above.[/QUOTE]
Probably because LeBron has destroyed the nba? Pick up some Chinese tv channels because the Nba in America will be no more. Also mvp winners aren't voted on that great they get some wrong and they get some right.

[QUOTE=aaronking23;17279248]Kobe's top 3 hobby love not top 3 all time[/QUOTE]

Will Gen Z have the same hobby love as millennials for Kobe in the future assuming they are into sports cards?

[QUOTE=sebreg;17279189]Mvp awards are nice but kinda overrated[/QUOTE]

This

I never liked MVP voting because the player is due. Kobe having 1 MVP is ridiculous and Curry over Harden in 1 year when Harden was the true MVP. If you told me the last 5 MVP, I wouldn't know actually I do because of Mosaic BKB cards.

Kobe was really a rich man's Allen Iverson. An inefficient volume shooter with leadership qualities.

[QUOTE=GOATcards;17279252]I'unno, '69T Lew Alcindor seems like a pretty cool card.

The '80T Larry/Magic is a questionable 3-panel deal, yes, yes. And the Magic pic could at least be closer-up. Whatevs. Coolness has most to do with the player on the card, most of the time.

I've got quite a bit of mid-'80s Star Co. Bird material on my wishlist. Turns out I have multiple copies of his 81T which is kinda iconic actually. :)![/QUOTE]

You're talking about one, two, maybe a handful of cards for some of these guys. Kobe's career spans the 90s insert craze, Topps Chrome, Exquisite, Prizm, and everything in between. I think Kobe is the most collectable player ever just due to the span of his career and him having licensed autos for both UD and Panini, plus all of the other variables that make Kobe what he is.

Kobe should have 3 (possible 4) MVP’s. (He was definitely the best player in the world the year dirk won and the year nash won his second)

MJ was robbed of 2 (no way Barkley was mvp 92-93 and Malone didn’t deserve his 1st one over MJ)

You could make a very solid argument Lebron deserves at least 1 or 2 more as well.

It is what it is

Is Derrick Rose as good as Kobe? Is Steve Nash twice as good as Kobe?

[QUOTE=codered;17279341]Kobe should have 3 (possible 4) MVP’s. (He was definitely the best player in the world the year dirk won and the year nash won his second)

MJ was robbed of 2 (no way Barkley was mvp 92-93 and Malone didn’t deserve his 1st one over MJ)

You could make a very solid argument Lebron deserves at least 1 or 2 more as well.

It is what it is[/QUOTE]

This is the problem with an award given by voting. So much bias behind where they throw their support.

Definitely, but not the direction you want to take the thread. Two are most certainly different.

LeBron and Kobe played almost 2 decades.

MJ played 13 seasons. Subtract broken ankle year and return from baseball year, we only got to see 11 full seasons.

5 MVPs in 11 seasons is pretty impressive, especially when MJ pulled a Tebow in between those MVPs.

Compare that ratio to:
-1 MVP in 20 seasons
-4 MVPs in 18 seasons (although Bron's nuts and ankles are starting to fall apart)

Lakers, Championships, Mamba Mentality.

Both LeBron and Kobe should have more MVPs. Since Jordan's MVPs it seems like the voting has gone away from giving it to the same player multiple years in a row if there is someone else who is almost as deserving.

In my opinion, Kobe should have 3-4 (Nash, Nash, Dirk years) MVPs. LeBron should have a few more more (looking at Rose, Westbrook, Harden years).

But I also agree that it goes Jordan >>>>>> LeBron > Kobe.

Yes it's true... 1 of them bounced around from team to team chasing rings while the other two stayed loyal to their team and fans..

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

The other thing I’ll mention about MJ, Kobe and lebron is 3 three of them sustained a large period of time that they were undoubtedly the best player in the world. Jordan from the late 80’s and all of the 90’s, Kobe from the mid 2000’s to 2010 and lebron from 2010 until maybe the last 3-4 years.

As good as Russell was in the 60’s there was wilt who you could of considered better. Always a toss up

The 70’s was a mix all the time. Sure Kareem was the best overall but some other players like Oscar, dr J, Walton, Cowens and McAdoo had some amazing seasons in between.

Magic and bird ruled most of the 80’s but I don’t think you could definitely say either was undoubtedly the best for more than a season

[QUOTE=MaoAsadaStan;17279268]Kobe was really a rich man's Allen Iverson. An inefficient volume shooter with leadership qualities.[/QUOTE]

Kobe [B]never [/B]could have led a team starting Eric Snow, Ty Hill, Mutumbo and Aaron McKie to the NBA Finals, backups of Matt Geiger and rookies Jumaine Jones and Raja Bell.

As proven by his entire career when he couldn't get a sniff without other allstars on his team like Shaq and Gasol.

The years when his best teammate was Lamar or Butler or Eddie Jones...Kobe didn't lead them anywhere, sorry. And all of those guys were significantly better than the 76ers next best player in Aaron McKie/or Mutumbo who couldn't do anything on offense but rebound.

[QUOTE=gomiamigo;17279929]Kobe [B]never [/B]could have led a team starting Eric Snow, Ty Hill, Mutumbo and Aaron McKie to the NBA Finals, backups of Matt Geiger and rookies Jumaine Jones and Raja Bell.

As proven by his entire career when he couldn't get a sniff without other allstars on his team like Shaq and Gasol.

The years when his best teammate was Lamar or Butler or Eddie Jones...Kobe didn't lead them anywhere, sorry. And all of those guys were significantly better than the 76ers next best player in Aaron McKie/or Mutumbo who couldn't do anything on offense but rebound.[/QUOTE]

That was also an extremely weak Eastern conference though. But again Kobe's popularity in the hobby is greatly bolstered by the Asian population. He was the first NBA megastar guard when NBA took off in Asia (Jordan just retired). Yes Duncan had more MVPs in the 2000s but lets be real here, no one in Asia cares about big men unless its a Chinese player.

[QUOTE=codered;17279680]The other thing I’ll mention about MJ, Kobe and lebron is 3 three of them sustained a large period of time that they were undoubtedly the best player in the world. Jordan from the late 80’s and all of the 90’s, Kobe from the mid 2000’s to 2010 and lebron from 2010 until maybe the last 3-4 years. [/QUOTE]

Lebron was MVP in 2008-09 and 09-10 so Kobe wasn't even close to 'undoubtedly the best player.'

And Kobe got a grand total of two [2] first place votes the year Dirk won, so not 2007 either. He finished 3rd but should have been 5th behind Lebron and Duncan. All those guys had better WS and WS/48.

In fact from 2001-07 it's clearly Duncan who was the best player overall. And he's got more MVPs and rings then to prove it. 98-05,07 First team all NBA.

There is not remotely 'a sustained large period of time' where Kobe was the best player, that's totally absurd. It was one year according to the stats and the voters.

Top 3/4 all those years from 2006-2013? Absolutely. But not as good as Lebron.

[QUOTE=gomiamigo;17279961]Lebron was MVP in 2008-09 and 09-10 so Kobe wasn't even close to 'undoubtedly the best player.'

And Kobe got a grand total of two [2] first place votes the year Dirk won, so not 2007 either. He finished 3rd but should have been 5th behind Lebron and Duncan. All those guys had better WS and WS/48.

In fact from 2001-07 it's clearly Duncan who was the best player overall. And he's got more MVPs and rings then to prove it. 98-05,07 First team all NBA.

There is not remotely 'a sustained large period of time' where Kobe was the best player, that's totally absurd. It was one year according to the stats and the voters.

Top 3/4 all those years from 2006-2013? Absolutely. But not as good as Lebron.[/QUOTE]

You're wasting your argument (see above), never compare a guard vs big men when it comes to hobby love. In terms of hobby, only player that competes with Kobe in the 2000s was Lebron and he's technically not a guard either. Kobe was the #1 guard in the 2000s. At a time when NBA skyrocketed in popularity worldwide. That alone is a good enough explanation as to why he's so popular worldwide. Average folks like to identify themselves more with a guard then with a big men. Very few people argue Kobe is top 3 all time on the court, but hobby love is different. Its always been like that in all sports. Not sure why people still make this dumb argument like why isn't Duncan more expensive than Kobe.

[QUOTE=gomiamigo;17279929]Kobe [B]never [/B]could have led a team starting Eric Snow, Ty Hill, Mutumbo and Aaron McKie to the NBA Finals, backups of Matt Geiger and rookies Jumaine Jones and Raja Bell.

As proven by his entire career when he couldn't get a sniff without other allstars on his team like Shaq and Gasol.

The years when his best teammate was Lamar or Butler or Eddie Jones...Kobe didn't lead them anywhere, sorry. And all of those guys were significantly better than the 76ers next best player in Aaron McKie/or Mutumbo who couldn't do anything on offense but rebound.[/QUOTE]

You mean 2001 defensive player of the year Dikembe Mutombo? 2001 1st team all defence, 2nd team all nba and league leader in rebounding Dikembe Mutombo? Yeah he was a bum. So was 2001 6th man of the year aaron Mckie. Just think if iverson had Smush Parker he’d probably would have a few rings.

The east was extremely weak in the early 2000’s. Kobe easily could have taken that sixers team to the finals in the east. Kobe probably would have averaged 40 with that sixers team. I mean that team stood around a watched iverson play iso ball for the entire game and just they played hard defence and picked up scraps. Kobe would have gone bananas in that situation

[QUOTE=pcptrade;17279265]Will Gen Z have the same hobby love as millennials for Kobe in the future assuming they are into sports cards?[/QUOTE]

Don’t know, but for me, it doesn’t matter cause I collect, not invest.

[QUOTE=gomiamigo;17279961]Lebron was MVP in 2008-09 and 09-10 so Kobe wasn't even close to 'undoubtedly the best player.'

And Kobe got a grand total of two [2] first place votes the year Dirk won, so not 2007 either. He finished 3rd but should have been 5th behind Lebron and Duncan. All those guys had better WS and WS/48.

In fact from 2001-07 it's clearly Duncan who was the best player overall. And he's got more MVPs and rings then to prove it. 98-05,07 First team all NBA.

There is not remotely 'a sustained large period of time' where Kobe was the best player, that's totally absurd. It was one year according to the stats and the voters.

Top 3/4 all those years from 2006-2013? Absolutely. But not as good as Lebron.[/QUOTE]

Dirk mvp year - 24.6 pts 8.9 rebs 3.4 ast
Kobe - 31.6 pts (scoring champ) 5.7 rebs 5.4 ast and he was also 1st all defence

Dirk won mvp because the mavs had a great record and better team. Kobe was the better player, easily. The year before Kobe averaged 35.4 and deserved the mvp but again nash won because the suns were “revolutionary” and nash was leading the charge. Kobe was the best individual player, easily

I understand what you’re saying about lebron in 2008-09 because yeah he had better numbers and might have deserved the MVP based on the regular season but he was still a bum in the playoffs. 2008-09 and 2009-10 Kobe won the championship and finals mvp. Again I’d argue that he was the best player in the world for that time frame. I believe it’s unquestionable during that time because at the time lebron wasn’t able to win the big game. At the time the vast majority of the basketball world wouldn’t crown the king because he hadn’t won. Kobe had numbers and rings

Again early 2000’s Duncan was the man no doubt but you had the last years of prime Shaq.

Im taking kobe over bron every time. Bet if Jordan was asked he would say the same.

[QUOTE=GOATcards;17279222]In the GOAT discussions (although someone has distinguished basketball GOAT from hobby GOAT), the tippy top of the cream of the crop have something like 3 MVPS or more and 3 Finals MVPs or more. If we narrowed it to that, we get MJ, Bron, Magic . . . I think that's it? If we loosened it up a bit and made it 2 MVPs and 2 Finals MVPs, that includes Larry Bird, Tim Duncan, Kareem . . . (Wilt got one Finals MVP but would have gotten another in '67 if they had Finals MVPs then; Russell bascially couldn't have been awarded any Finals MVPs, Shaq and Kobe have at least 2 Finals MVPs each but "only" 1 regular-season MVP each (losing to the likes of Allen Iverson, Duncan, Nash, and LeBron).

I'm just saying, the competition gets pretty tight, up there in the top 5-10. Kobe's a top-10 legend, just trying to get a grasp on his top-3 hobby status.[/QUOTE]


Everyone that knows anything about basketball knows Bryant should have gotten at least 1 more MVP, which makes all your chatter pointless.

It’s not like Jesus Christ hand selects MVPs and they are indisputable.

(Why are you feeling insecure about Kobe and need to attack him? Is it because the HOF is around the corner? Relax, MJ is staying #1.)

A GOAT player would never get swept in the NBA Finals. Not once, but twice. He maybe the only MVP player that own that record getting broom twice. I'm talking about this Lakers player, not that Lakers player.

[QUOTE=pcptrade;17279265]Will Gen Z have the same hobby love as millennials for Kobe in the future assuming they are into sports cards?[/QUOTE]

I would bet yes. Branding, legacy, deep int'l following, mamba mentality, dying relatively young, it all works to create a very strong mythology. Akin to Mickey Mantle, not best player, but one of the most mythological and iconic ones. Kobe's career also spanned three amazingly innovative decades of sports cards, so there are plenty of incredible pieces of cardboard to chase and collect. I think Kobe's place in hobby mt rushmore is secure.

You wait until they see the stat on how 'clutch' Kobe was.

[QUOTE=forgiven1;17279578]Yes it's true... 1 of them bounced around from team to team chasing rings while the other two stayed loyal to their team and fans..

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

Alternatively, he built a loyal fanbase in 3 different cities?:flex:

[QUOTE=codered;17280033]Dirk mvp year - 24.6 pts 8.9 rebs 3.4 ast
Kobe - 31.6 pts (scoring champ) 5.7 rebs 5.4 ast and he was also 1st all defence

Dirk won mvp because the mavs had a great record and better team. Kobe was the better player, easily. The year before Kobe averaged 35.4 and deserved the mvp but again nash won because the suns were “revolutionary” and nash was leading the charge. Kobe was the best individual player, easily

I understand what you’re saying about lebron in 2008-09 because yeah he had better numbers and might have deserved the MVP based on the regular season but he was still a bum in the playoffs. 2008-09 and 2009-10 Kobe won the championship and finals mvp. Again I’d argue that he was the best player in the world for that time frame. I believe it’s unquestionable during that time because at the time lebron wasn’t able to win the big game. At the time the vast majority of the basketball world wouldn’t crown the king because he hadn’t won. Kobe had numbers and rings

Again early 2000’s Duncan was the man no doubt but you had the last years of prime Shaq.[/QUOTE]

This is why Kobe's [URL="https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/nba_mvp_shares.html"]Award Shares[/URL] better reflects how prominent he was in voters' minds over his career. He's a top-10 player. At the same time, MJ and Bron's Award Shares are basically double Kobe's.

[QUOTE=bloodwings19;17280074]A GOAT player would never get swept in the NBA Finals. Not once, but twice. He maybe the only MVP player that own that record getting broom twice. I'm talking about this Lakers player, not that Lakers player.[/QUOTE]

Those sweeps (after doing the ho-hum thing of getting to the Finals) were when Bron was like 22 and then when he was up against an unbeatable-when-healthy opponent. You could at least try to be fair.

i don't think kobe is top 3 basketball (i put him around 9 or 10, and i'm a lifelong laker fan). but hes top 3 hobby.

-high scorer
-makes crazy espn highlight shots
-swag
-on lakers
-won championships

everyone is telling you the same thing and you keep trying to argue the basketball metrics only. so if you keep being ignorant thats just on you

[QUOTE=GOATcards;17280347]Alternatively, he built a loyal fanbase in 3 different cities?:flex:[/QUOTE]

I'm a Bron guy myself, but 1 team legacy almost always trumps splitting career with multiple teams. Even if Bron has won a chip in 3 different cities. While I do think one can argue late career chip(s?) with a brand and fanbase as massive as Los Angeles will certainly help Lebron's legacy, it doesn't beat out 20 year one team run. Bron, Durant, Kawhi. There is a mercenary aspect to how they have gone about their business. It is what it is, doesn't really bother me personally, but I do see the appeal in a one team career run; Dirk, Duncan, Kobe, etc. Hopefully Steph will be added to that list.

[QUOTE=sebreg;17280442]I'm a Bron guy myself, but 1 team legacy almost always trumps splitting career with multiple teams. Even if Bron has won a chip in 3 different cities. While I do think one can argue late career chip(s?) with a brand and fanbase as massive as Los Angeles will certainly help Lebron's legacy, it doesn't beat out 20 year one team run. Bron, Durant, Kawhi. There is a mercenary aspect to how they have gone about their business. It is what it is, doesn't really bother me personally, but I do see the appeal in a one team career run; Dirk, Duncan, Kobe, etc. Hopefully Steph will be added to that list.[/QUOTE]

Steph is going to realize the only way he will beat the king of the East will be to join Lebron himself..

And it will be quite the full-circle irony when he does. Can't wait.

[QUOTE=pcptrade;17279265]Will Gen Z have the same hobby love as millennials for Kobe in the future assuming they are into sports cards?[/QUOTE]

My 8 year old knows who Kobe is. His cultural impact is significant.

Never forget that Kobe had to carry a team consisting of smush Parker as starting pg, and kwame brown at center. I still think he could of carried that team to the finals against shaq that year.

[QUOTE=codered;17279341]Kobe should have 3 (possible 4) MVP’s. (He was definitely the best player in the world the year dirk won and the year nash won his second)

MJ was robbed of 2 (no way Barkley was mvp 92-93 and Malone didn’t deserve his 1st one over MJ)

You could make a very solid argument Lebron deserves at least 1 or 2 more as well.

It is what it is[/QUOTE]

Exactly. The best player in the league doesn't always get the MVP. That's just how it is. MJ should have won 7 or 8 and Kobe 3 or 4 easily.

[QUOTE=Brent72;17281487]Exactly. The best player in the league doesn't always get the MVP. That's just how it is. MJ should have won 7 or 8 and Kobe 3 or 4 easily.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. At least one of the Nash ones wasn't more deserving. Politics plays a part in voting and unfortunately so does voting fatigue when it came to MJ.

[QUOTE=Mule5;17281337]My 8 year old knows who Kobe is. His cultural impact is significant.[/QUOTE]

FWIW, LeBron and Steph Curry are more popular among Millennials and Gen Z. Perhaps due to recency bias. Hence my question "will Gen Z and Gen alpha (especially born after Kobe's death) have the same hobby love for Kobe as Millenials?"

[url]https://www.ypulse.com/article/2017/07/24/gen-z-millennials-15-favorite-pro-athletes-right-now/[/url]

[url]https://www.ypulse.com/article/2015/11/05/millennials-10-favorite-athletes-a-millennial-reacts/[/url]

[url=https://flic.kr/p/2kW2hFn][img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51150813139_8a37d06d89_k.jpg[/img][/url][url=https://flic.kr/p/2kW2hFn]Screenshot_20210501_055040[/url] by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/144335251@N08/]icollector23[/url], on Flickr

[QUOTE=pcptrade;17279265]Will Gen Z have the same hobby love as millennials for Kobe in the future assuming they are into sports cards?[/QUOTE]

I think so. Kobe will always be relevant. I think more so year after year if I'm being honest.

He has a legacy (on and off the court) and will be forever loved by fans. (even if they didn't watch him play)

Not to mention his relationship with Jordan and his impact across the globe.

[QUOTE=frobebryant;17280418]i don't think kobe is top 3 basketball (i put him around 9 or 10, and i'm a lifelong laker fan). but hes top 3 hobby.

-high scorer
-makes crazy espn highlight shots
-swag
-on lakers
-won championships

everyone is telling you the same thing and you keep trying to argue the basketball metrics only. so if you keep being ignorant thats just on you[/QUOTE]

It is the same as Lebron haters here or those who are mad that they missed the boat who try to put him down while his cards set a new record every year. They think that they can brainwash others but they do not realize that BO users contribute to less than 1% of high end of the hobby. They look stupid in the process of doing so. " The market is always right":)

[QUOTE=pcptrade;17281821][B]It is the same as Lebron haters here or those who are mad that they missed the boat who try to put him down while his cards set a new record every year[/B]. They think that they can brainwash others but they do not realize that BO users contribute to less than 1% of high end of the hobby. They look stupid in the process of doing so. " The market is always right":)[/QUOTE]

Didn't you join the boat like 3 years ago? :cry:

[QUOTE=imbluestreak23;17279397]Definitely, but not the direction you want to take the thread. Two are most certainly different.

LeBron and Kobe played almost 2 decades.

MJ played 13 seasons. Subtract broken ankle year and return from baseball year, we only got to see 11 full seasons.

5 MVPs in 11 seasons is pretty impressive, especially when MJ pulled a Tebow in between those MVPs.

Compare that ratio to:
-1 MVP in 20 seasons
-4 MVPs in 18 seasons (although Bron's nuts and ankles are starting to fall apart)[/QUOTE]

Facts! Nothing against Kobe, but Lebron having more seasons than MJ has got to take away from Lebrons GOAT factor. MJ will always be the GOAT in my eyes. Played 13 seasons 6 rings in a way more punishing league.

[QUOTE=imbluestreak23;17281905]Didn't you join the boat like 3 years ago? :cry:[/QUOTE]

The way the hobby has evolved since, thats like a decade.

[QUOTE=imbluestreak23;17281905]Didn't you join the boat like 3 years ago? :cry:[/QUOTE]

Are you on the boat?:cry:

[QUOTE=mc1;17281998]The way the hobby has evolved since, that's like a decade.[/QUOTE]

LOL, yeah! Even 1-2 years is like a decade. I bought the following only in the last two years :D:)!-

1. Lebron 2003 TC Gold Refractor BGS 9.5 True Gem: Purchased in May 2019 for 50K (Cost basis 42K). Current value 750K to 1 million

2. Lebron 2003 Exquisite RPA BGS 8.5/10: Purchased last March for 250K (Cost basis 170K). Current value 1.25-1.5 million

3. Lebron 2003 Ultimate Auto/250 PSA 10: Purchased in Dec 2019 for 60K. Current value 400-500K or more

4. Jordan 1997 PMG Red BGS 8: Purchased last March for 60K. Current value ~500K

5. Mahomes 2017 Panini Prizm Gold Vinyl PSA 10. Purchased in Sep 2019 for 16K. Current value 250K plus

6. Mahomes 2017 NT RPA 3CLR Patch BGS 9: Purchased in Sep 2019 for 15K. Current value 200K

[QUOTE=pete2345;17280040]Im taking kobe over bron every time. Bet if Jordan was asked he would say the same.[/QUOTE]

That’s an opinion not many share. I’m not a fan of Lebron really, but no way I’m taking Kobe over him.

[QUOTE=bdoody42;17282063]That’s an opinion not many share. I’m not a fan of Lebron really, but no way I’m taking Kobe over him.[/QUOTE]

Stats show taking Kobe in the finals is likely to make you win, LeBron is likely to lead you to a loss. You’re insane by definition.

[QUOTE=Kefka891;17282089]Stats show taking Kobe in the finals is likely to make you win, LeBron is likely to lead you to a loss. You’re insane by definition.[/QUOTE]

Kobe has horrible stats in the Finals.
If not for Shaq and Gasol he would have zero rings.

[QUOTE=pcptrade;17281568]FWIW, LeBron and Steph Curry are more popular among Millennials and Gen Z. Perhaps due to recency bias. Hence my question "will Gen Z and Gen alpha (especially born after Kobe's death) have the same hobby love for Kobe as Millenials?"

[url]https://www.ypulse.com/article/2017/07/24/gen-z-millennials-15-favorite-pro-athletes-right-now/[/url]

[url]https://www.ypulse.com/article/2015/11/05/millennials-10-favorite-athletes-a-millennial-reacts/[/url]

[url=https://flic.kr/p/2kW2hFn][img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51150813139_8a37d06d89_k.jpg[/img][/url][url=https://flic.kr/p/2kW2hFn]Screenshot_20210501_055040[/url] by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/144335251@N08/]icollector23[/url], on Flickr[/QUOTE]

Google Trends say otherwise.

In ten years no one will even remember Curry anyway.

MJ is the one that is not like the other two.

Nice try though. Lol

[QUOTE=pcptrade;17282032]Are you on the boat?:cry:
[/QUOTE]

Heck no and not mad about it one bit! Made plenty off LeFraud over the years though, well before these new guys that post their "gains" on boards joined the fray.

[QUOTE=imbluestreak23;17282117]Heck no and [B]not mad about it one bit[/B]! Made plenty off LeFraud over the years though, well before these [B]new guys that post their "gains"[/B] on boards joined the fray.[/QUOTE]

Oh well, I did not get that impression based on your posts. I saw many of your posts where you were bragging about your cost basis and gains. Gotta love the hypocrisy here:)!

[QUOTE=k13;17282102]Kobe has horrible stats in the Finals.
If not for Shaq and Gasol he would have zero rings.[/QUOTE]

So how many more championships did Gasol lead a team to after kobe? since he is the reason for the championships? How many championships did he lead a team to before Kobe?

Yip. One is deceased and the other two living.

[QUOTE=Arianny_Fan;17281980]MJ will always be the GOAT in my eyes. Played 13 seasons 6 rings in a way more punishing league.[/QUOTE]

11 full seasons (I guess his playoff performances in the postseasons of the short seasons kind of cancel one another out - 63 points vs. getting picked by Nick Anderson was it?), and yeah, given the rings vs. full/healthy seasons played he was pretty efficient at getting those rings. Was it luck of having better teammates like Pippen (who he helped to make better as it is) and Rodman or did he really do things like up his scoring numbers in the postseason and Finals (like 33+ PPG in his career)?

And I recently posted their MVP Vote Shares for their top ten seasons. MJ's are the top by a good margin; it's really hard to outdo MJ's 10 best seasons (i.e., all his full seasons after his rookie season, hot damn).

Anyway, Kobe's MVP Vote share (which can give serious credit to non-win appearances) does show he's not like the other 2 in that dept either.

[QUOTE=k13;17282102]Kobe has horrible stats in the Finals.
If not for Shaq and Gasol he would have zero rings.[/QUOTE]

I do gotta say, your reputation precedes you, keep up the, uh, good(?) work :)!:o

[QUOTE=pcptrade;17282123]Oh well, I did not get that impression based on your posts. I saw many of your posts where you were bragging about your cost basis and gains. Gotta love the hypocrisy here:)![/QUOTE]

Dude, nobody has pumped on this forum as much as you have. Nice edits. I must have struck a nerve.

Humility as a great trait.

Maybe as hobbyists-as-investors we can learn something from the Kobe case. How important are Luka or Zion's personalities to their hobby potential? Is there some statistically strong relation nonetheless between MVP Award Shares and hobby potential?

Reframing the original posting a bit:
Kobe is basically in a 5-way tie for 7th place all-time in Award Shares
He's in [URL="https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/finals_mvp.html"]select company[/URL] as a 2-time Finals MVP.

In these high-profile categories he can be fairly compared to a select few (7 or 8) all-time and yet he cracks the top 3 in hobby terms (although I guess at this point he's a distant 3rd behind the top two on-court GOAT contenders). So what patterns can we pick up on? Are there hobby-specific-only factors like the limited appeal of Bird's early-Topps issues? (But hey wait a sec, his '81T is a masterpiece I think?) And something mostly irrelevant (in Bird's case at least) about Star Co's Bird issues. But we're also being told by numerous contributors that there's an international appeal with Kobe that doesn't work so much in Bird's case. How much can this be quantified? Let's get rigorous so that we can all spot "the next Kobe" who may or may not be topping everyone in MVP Share and Finals MVPs. Like Steph Curry for instance? :eek: (Sorry, I'm a bit faded at the moment lol, some big insight was bound to happen amiright)

[QUOTE=k13;17282102]Kobe has horrible stats in the Finals.
If not for Shaq and Gasol he would have zero rings.[/QUOTE]

Correct take, but also not what happens when you poll a group of folks who spent most of their lives chasing Kobe cards and swallowing the "mentality" myth of a 45 percent volume shooter.

[QUOTE=imbluestreak23;17282256]Dude, nobody has pumped on this forum as much as you have. Nice edits. [B]I must have struck a nerve.
[/B]
Humility as a great trait.[/QUOTE]

LOL, I feel its the other way around with you and another guy. You both keep following me and quoting my messages. I accused you and few others of pumping first and you guys came back at me which backfired :D

EDIT: Talking about humility, did you not get slapped by Houdini on the topic "It pays to be a nice person" in one of your threads? Again, gotta love the hypocrisy!

[QUOTE=pcptrade;17282032]Are you on the boat?:cry:



LOL, yeah! Even 1-2 years is like a decade. I bought the following only in the last two years :D:)!-

1. Lebron 2003 TC Gold Refractor BGS 9.5 True Gem: Purchased in May 2019 for 50K (Cost basis 42K). Current value 750K to 1 million

2. Lebron 2003 Exquisite RPA BGS 8.5/10: Purchased last March for 250K (Cost basis 170K). Current value 1.25-1.5 million

3. Lebron 2003 Ultimate Auto/250 PSA 10: Purchased in Dec 2019 for 60K. Current value 400-500K or more

4. Jordan 1997 PMG Red BGS 8: Purchased last March for 60K. Current value ~500K

5. Mahomes 2017 Panini Prizm Gold Vinyl PSA 10. Purchased in Sep 2019 for 16K. Current value 250K plus

6. Mahomes 2017 NT RPA 3CLR Patch BGS 9: Purchased in Sep 2019 for 15K. Current value 200K[/QUOTE]

This makes me jealous, hateful and insecure. Nice work.:)!

[QUOTE=Kefka891;17282089]Stats show taking Kobe in the finals is likely to make you win, LeBron is likely to lead you to a loss. You’re insane by definition.[/QUOTE]

:cry:

I don’t believe Kobe got cheated out of any MVPs. Some fans feel that he deserved the Nash MVPs. In the case of the first Nash MVP in 04-05, there’s absolutely no argument. Kobe received zero votes and played in just 66 games with his Lakers finishing 34-48 and out of the playoffs. Nash probably didn’t deserve that MVP either. I don’t know why Amar’e didn’t recieve more MVP votes that season. He finished tied for 9th, but finished ahead of Nash in PER, WS, WS/48, and VORP. Dirk and Shaq were also more deserving than Nash in my opinion.

The best arguments for Kobe are in 02-03, 05-06, and 06-07. In 02-03 Duncan wins it with Kobe coming in third. Kobe does deserve consideration coming in second in the league with a 30.0 PTS, and leading the Lakers while playing all 82 games. Shaq missed 15 games that season. However, Shaq was still the Lakers best player when he was on the court. He led Kobe in some key metrics - PER and WS/48. This weakens the case for Kobe. Also, Duncan led Kobe in PER, WS, and WS/48. They tied in VORP. What puts it over the top for Duncan is the fact that the Spurs finished first in their Division at 60-22, while the Lakers were second in their division at 50-32.

05-06 was the second Nash MVP. Although he was better than in his first MVP, Nash didn’t deserve this MVP in my opinion. But that doesn’t mean Kobe deserved it. Kobe did have his best scoring season in 05-06, leading the league with a 35.4 PTS. Kobe finished third that season in PER behind both Dirk and LeBron. He finished fourth in WS behind Dirk, LeBron, and Billups. He finished eighth in WS/48, with Dirk, Billups, and LeBron all finishing ahead of him. And he was second in VORP behind LeBron and just a bit ahead of Dirk. The problem with giving this MVP to Kobe is the Lakers finished sixth in the West with a 45-37 record. The records for the Pistons, Mavs, and Cavs, and were all better. The Pistons went 64-18, the Mavs 60-22, and the Cavs 50-32. In my opinion, Dirk was the most deserving this season. Can you really give it to Kobe, when Dirk leads him in PER, WS, WS/48, and just slightly behind in VORP, while his team finished 15 games better?

06-07 really isn’t that close at all, but I’ll mention it because Kobe did lead the league in PTS for the second time in his career with 31.6. Dirk wins this MVP and absolutely deserved it, while Kobe finished third. Dirk led Kobe in PER, WS, WS/48, and VORP that season. He also did something that’s only been done about a dozen times in NBA history with shooting percentages of 50-40-90. Oh and his team was first in the conference at 67-15, while the Lakers snuck into the playoffs at 42-40.

In my opinion, Kobe is just outside the top 10 all-time. But that doesn’t mean he deserved more than the one MVP he got. Not including the one he did win, Kobe probably had three or four other season that were MVP caliber. Unfortunately, they took place in seasons in which there were other players who were more deserving. The Lakers low win totals in those seasons prevented him from getting votes as well.