Issue with PSA

[Blazed]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

That's your final answer then huh? We can be satisfied now, without giving the matter more careful and thorough thinking-through?

It's a foil card. It's condition sensitive, so yes, being handed more often than others can be what the grading is reflecting.

Again, not rocket science, just requires a little thought. Why is it easier to get a 10 on a 1990 skybox Pete Chilcutt vs Michel Jordan? Could it be a highly collected players card that went through a lot of hands vs. a no one that sat in a box untouched? I know it seems like a trick question, but its not.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by AbraCalabro

Look at that guy's post history and you'll realize you're wasting your time.

So you're saying ( ) that if I bring up that Mastro-cut PSA 8 Wagner and all that it implies, I'll get nothing on-point?

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by Blazed

It's a foil card. It's condition sensitive, so yes, being handed more often than others can be what the grading is reflecting.

Again, not rocket science, just requires a little thought. Why is it easier to get a 10 on a 1990 skybox Pete Chilcutt vs Michel Jordan? Could it be a highly collected players card that went through a lot of hands vs. a no one that sat in a box untouched? I know it seems like a trick question, but its not.

Does this mean you rest content in your belief that a 50-to-1 disparity isn't any cause for concern, that this can be readily explained by more extensive handling of Jeters?

Tell me you're also not concerned about a known hand-cut card being in a PSA 8 holder, you must have some compelling reason for lack of concern there just like your compelling argument above heheh

[duron]

Originally Posted by Blazed

Because Jeter cards were handled more than the others. It's not rocket science. Hot players before penny sleeves and top loaders were a must, their cards were traded and looked at more often than say Darren Daulton.

Pops in general are a huge farce. Not only are cards graded inconsistently, but they’re increasingly being used to prop up “worthless” cards. Content creators LOVE employing this tactic.

“Oh wow, a pop 2! These must be sooooo condition sensitive.”

Or no one used to send in crap to be graded. Even the pops on “crap” cards will boost up once this still gigantic backlog is sifted through more.

[Blazed]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

Does this mean you rest content in your belief that a 50-to-1 disparity isn't any cause for concern, that this can be readily explained by more extensive handling of Jeters?

During that time period, yes. People didn't coddle their cards and treat them like gold like they do now. Again, pennies and top loaders weren't even a thing yet, binders and 9 pockets and shoeboxes were. I don't remember using a top loader until 98-99? Pennies at a later date.

Tell me you're also not concerned about a known hand-cut card being in a PSA 8 holder, you must have some compelling reason for lack of concern there just like your compelling argument above heheh

Grading is one (or a few) peoples opinion. Now there's technology so it's more accurate (assumption). When I buy cards, I buy the card not the grade. I have seen 8's with perfect centering and 10's with centering off top/bottom or l/r.

I get that you have an axe to grind with PSA, so you will scrutinize everything with a loupe to get the result you want.

[Blazed]

Originally Posted by duron

Pops in general are a huge farce. Not only are cards graded inconsistently, but they’re increasingly being used to prop up “worthless” cards. Content creators LOVE employing this tactic.

“Oh wow, a pop 2! These must be sooooo condition sensitive.”

Or no one used to send in crap to be graded. Even the pops on “crap” cards will boost up once this still gigantic backlog is sifted through more.

I'm fully aware grading is a money grab, I also partake in that money grab (I mean why not grade cards and sell them for 20, 30 or 50X+ what I paid). But some cards, especially foil cards, that were handled more than others would have a bigger disparity. Easy concept to understand.

[daeve]

Originally Posted by Blazed

During that time period, yes. People didn't coddle their cards and treat them like gold like they do now. Again, pennies and top loaders weren't even a thing yet, binders and 9 pockets and shoeboxes were. I don't remember using a top loader until 98-99? Pennies at a later date.



Grading is one (or a few) peoples opinion. Now there's technology so it's more accurate (assumption). When I buy cards, I buy the card not the grade. I have seen 8's with perfect centering and 10's with centering off top/bottom or l/r.

I get that you have an axe to grind with PSA, so you will scrutinize everything with a loupe to get the result you want.

lol are you being serious?

I vividly remember being in my LCS in 1997 and seeing the first ever "hype" create higher than SRP pack prices due to everyone being excited about Jose Cruz Bowman Chrome. There were loads of penny/dollar boxes, penny boxes all had sleeves, dollar and up boxes were all top-loaded. All hyped RCs were in sleeves and loaders in the displays. Jeter was huge then.

I was also there when my LCS owner got his first PSA sub in, it was Jeter heavy. This was probably 98-99. And he felt he was late to the game, there were already many Jeters graded and on ebay. People weren't throwing these around likes the Mantle bubble gum and bicycle spokes days. We were already well within the "rookie hype" / "psa gem" era.

[cms11]

Originally Posted by daeve

lol are you being serious?

I vividly remember being in my LCS in 1997 and seeing the first ever "hype" create higher than SRP pack prices due to everyone being excited about Jose Cruz Bowman Chrome. There were loads of penny/dollar boxes, penny boxes all had sleeves, dollar and up boxes were all top-loaded. All hyped RCs were in sleeves and loaders in the displays. Jeter was huge then.

I was also there when my LCS owner got his first PSA sub in, it was Jeter heavy. This was probably 98-99. And he felt he was late to the game, there were already many Jeters graded and on ebay. People weren't throwing these around likes the Mantle bubble gum and bicycle spokes days. We were already well within the "rookie hype" / "psa gem" era.

I know for a fact that penny sleeves and toploaders existed in 1989 because I put Griffeys and 89 Score football in them. Before that we had to put them in page sleeves.

[cms11]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

hey hey, here's that 93 SP pop report:

https://www.psacard.com/pop/baseball.../1993/sp/45667

Total graded - 28,622
Total 10s - 1,555
10 rate: around 5%

Jeter graded - 19,862
Jeter 10s - 21
10 rate: around .1%

Jeters get 10s at roughly 1/50 the rate that 93 SP cards get generally.

Anyone got a good explanation for how that happens if the grading company is operating in good faith?

PSA overgrades low end cards.

[duron]

Originally Posted by Blazed

I'm fully aware grading is a money grab, I also partake in that money grab (I mean why not grade cards and sell them for 20, 30 or 50X+ what I paid). But some cards, especially foil cards, that were handled more than others would have a bigger disparity. Easy concept to understand.

It’s unquestionable some were handled more, but to the point where the gem disparity is a factor of 50? No whey protein.

[mc1]

271-290 are the Foil cards.
You cannot compare cards from the rookie subset to the rest of the base cards, they are different.

Look at the pop reports for the cards from the foil subset only if you want an honest discussion.

[88horsepower]

Originally Posted by cms11

I know for a fact that penny sleeves and toploaders existed in 1989 because I put Griffeys and 89 Score football in them. Before that we had to put them in page sleeves.

Same. I was using a thinner type of penny sleeve at that time, but it was a penny sleeve nonetheless.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by daeve

lol are you being serious?

I vividly remember being in my LCS in 1997 and seeing the first ever "hype" create higher than SRP pack prices due to everyone being excited about Jose Cruz Bowman Chrome. There were loads of penny/dollar boxes, penny boxes all had sleeves, dollar and up boxes were all top-loaded. All hyped RCs were in sleeves and loaders in the displays. Jeter was huge then.

I was using pennies and toploaders from very early in my collecting ('89-ish) but maybe I was more condition-sensitive (lol) than other collectors of the time despite the Beckett condition guide and all that. Yeah, I'd notice the tiny dings or print imperfections.

I guess the TPG became a big thing because of so little condition-sensitivity among so many collectors who couldn't be troubled to notice small stuff. I've experienced some of that pretty recently with small eBay purchases, e.g. "mint" cards with little surface scuffs.

[I only pull for]

Nat, is PSA collecting any data from its authentication agreement with eBay?

It should be a simple yes or no answer, but no one at eBay wants to answer my question. Consumers have a right to know what is happening with their data.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

hey hey, here's that 93 SP pop report:

https://www.psacard.com/pop/baseball.../1993/sp/45667

Total graded - 28,622
Total 10s - 1,555
10 rate: around 5%

Jeter graded - 19,862
Jeter 10s - 21
10 rate: around .1%

Jeters get 10s at roughly 1/50 the rate that 93 SP cards get generally.

Anyone got a good explanation for how that happens if the grading company is operating in good faith?

Originally Posted by cms11

PSA overgrades low end cards.

which would mean they don't follow the guidelines consistently as they say they do

[Blazed]

Originally Posted by daeve

lol are you being serious?

I vividly remember being in my LCS in 1997 and seeing the first ever "hype" create higher than SRP pack prices due to everyone being excited about Jose Cruz Bowman Chrome. There were loads of penny/dollar boxes, penny boxes all had sleeves, dollar and up boxes were all top-loaded. All hyped RCs were in sleeves and loaders in the displays. Jeter was huge then.

I was also there when my LCS owner got his first PSA sub in, it was Jeter heavy. This was probably 98-99. And he felt he was late to the game, there were already many Jeters graded and on ebay. People weren't throwing these around likes the Mantle bubble gum and bicycle spokes days. We were already well within the "rookie hype" / "psa gem" era.

I was a kid, that's why I put a question mark. I also remember a lot of kids at school trading and handling cards without top loaders and pennies. We carried them around raw in our pocket or backpack. We damaged so many corners and surfaces and still displayed them in binders after we traded.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by mc1

271-290 are the Foil cards.
You cannot compare cards from the rookie subset to the rest of the base cards, they are different.

Look at the pop reports for the cards from the foil subset only if you want an honest discussion.

Fair enough, check out the gem rates on the Chipper and Manny foil cards.

[Kobefan]

I understand that there are lots of people here who are upset about PSA's upcharge and don't buy into the argument that the premium is to cover their money back guaranty on the cards' authenticity. However, since what I collect are mostly the 90s inserts that are heavily faked, the money back authentic guaranty is very important to me, and most other grading companies don't have the money back guaranty on cards. I heard that SGC has similar policy at cheaper grading prices, so does anybody have experiences in filing for the money back guaranty?

[Blazed]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

I was using pennies and toploaders from very early in my collecting ('89-ish) but maybe I was more condition-sensitive (lol) than other collectors of the time despite the Beckett condition guide and all that. Yeah, I'd notice the tiny dings or print imperfections.

I guess the TPG became a big thing because of so little condition-sensitivity among so many collectors who couldn't be troubled to notice small stuff. I've experienced some of that pretty recently with small eBay purchases, e.g. "mint" cards with little surface scuffs.

Anyone remember who made the pennies and top loaders back then? My LCS didn't even use them until 98 that I can remember. I Would go in there and pick out cards he would put them in a 9 page and give them to me in that. Then around 98-99 I remember using them for my Harold Miner cards.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

Fair enough, check out the gem rates on the Chipper and Manny foil cards.

and if that can be explained by submitters being more selective about which non-Jeter (lower-value) cards they'll submit for the fee, then that could make sense.

It's not like I get some kick out of casting shade, but it's not like trust levels in this hobby are high. Mastro-cut Wagner, gem rates plummeting all of a sudden, and that's just an industry leader.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

Fair enough, check out the gem rates on the Chipper and Manny foil cards.

107/5535 for all other foil cards

1.93%

The other factor not considered are resubmits and just overall value of the jeter vs others. That card is much more likely to be submitted many times over and also in worse condition. Not many would submit a card of Dmitri Young if they thought it would get less than 5-6. If its a Jeter? Send it in even if its a 2-3!

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by mc1

107/5535 for all other foil cards

1.93%

The other factor not considered are resubmits and just overall value of the jeter vs others. That card is much more likely to be submitted many times over and also in worse condition. Not many would submit a card of Dmitri Young if they thought it would get less than 5-6. If its a Jeter? Send it in even if its a 2-3!

I guess I'm not thinking the most clearly on this. The overall number of gems (on many fewer submissions) for Chipper and Manny wouldn't fit with my explanation that gem rates would expectedly be higher for lower-value cards (given submission costs).

So to reframe: what sensibly explains how there could be twice as many Chippers in a 10 than there are Jeters? Can we fall back on the Jeters-were-handled-more explanation?

[Kobefan]

Originally Posted by Blazed

Anyone remember who made the pennies and top loaders back then? My LCS didn't even use them until 98 that I can remember. I Would go in there and pick out cards he would put them in a 9 page and give them to me in that. Then around 98-99 I remember using them for my Harold Miner cards.

Google search indicates that Ultra-Pro started making card sleeves in 1995.

[PLB9eight]

Originally Posted by Kobefan

I understand that there are lots of people here who are upset about PSA's upcharge and don't buy into the argument that the premium is to cover their money back guaranty on the cards' authenticity. However, since what I collect are mostly the 90s inserts that are heavily faked, the money back authentic guaranty is very important to me, and most other grading companies don't have the money back guaranty on cards. I heard that SGC has similar policy at cheaper grading prices, so does anybody have experiences in filing for the money back guaranty?

How silly is it though to say I’m gonna charge your more for protection on something I should’ve gotten right to start with?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Zedlaw]

Peer pressure is a thing. We are human. PSA gets a nice copy of a Jeter in. I’m guessing it sees a couple more tables before a ten is slapped on it. The answer could be as simple as one person signs off on a Chipper 10 but five people all have to agree on a Jeter 10. And now everyone is making just a little bit extra sure.