**The Perennial MIKE TROUT Thread** - Page 869

MattRoc · 07-05-2023, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 49ersSF

If Trout is the player everyone claims he is then he should have easily led those Angels teams to division championships. The A's won 6 division titles during Trout's career with absolutely nobody on their teams. Their payroll for their entire team was often less than Trout's alone. So what is Trout's true value if a franchise can consistently reach the playoffs with so little while the Angels payroll is consistently in the top 10 and can't even manage a single playoff win in his career.

Sidenote. People blame the owner. The owner bought the team in 2003. With Vlad Guerrero as their primary star and a nearly similar amount of talent surrounding him as Trout the Angels did the following.

2004 92-70 1st place
2005 95-67 1st place
2006 89-73 2nd place
2007 94-68 1st place
2008 100-62 1st place
2009 97-65 1st place

This is what the Angels did prior to Trout's arrival in 2010. Same owner. Same level of talent. Same division.

Trout years...

2010 80-82 3rd place
2011 86-76 2nd place
2012 89-73 3rd place
2013 78-84 3rd place
2014 98-64 1st place (swept in only playoff appearance)
2015 85-77 3rd place
2016 74-88 4th place
2017 80-82 2nd place
2018 80-82 4th place
2019 72-90 4th place
2020 26-34 4th place
2021 77-85 4th place
2022 73-89 3rd place

People commonly say that the Angels robbed him of his true greatness. Perhaps Trout robber the franchise of it's greatness after 5 first place finishes in 6 years before his arrival.

Angels pitching staff rankings in the AL (15 teams) from 2010 to the present in terms of WAR:

2010 - 11
2011 - 9
2012 - 11
2013 - 13
2014 - 6 (the year they made the playoffs)
2015 - 11
2016 - 15
2017 - 10
2018 - 8
2019 - 13
2020 - 9
2021 - 6
2022 - 6

Basically a whole lot of stink, topping out at 6/16. Pre-Trout years, they had rankings of #1 (2006), #2 (2005 and 2007), #3 (2004), #5 (2008), and #10 (2009). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that bad pitching = no playoffs. It wouldn't have mattered if you replaced Trout with Willie Mays, none of those Angel teams with pitching that bad were going anywhere.

theshowandme · 07-05-2023, 07:03 PM

eye test still matters

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49ersSF · 07-05-2023, 07:05 PM

Angels record

without Trout since 2015 135-151 .472 win %

with Trout since 2015 567-627 .474 win %

The Angels seem unaffected by Trout's wins above replacement.

theshowandme · 07-05-2023, 07:06 PM

Imagine if he could pitch

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theshowandme · 07-05-2023, 07:06 PM

Trout cards will still be pricey at the National. He’s not dead and he’s still better than 99% of the league and his generation

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KhalDrogo · 07-05-2023, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 49ersSF

Angels record

without Trout since 2015 135-151 .472 win %

with Trout since 2015 567-627 .474 win %

The Angels seem unaffected by Trout's wins above replacement.

I think this proves exactly that opposite of what you’re trying to accomplish.

ThoseBackPages · 07-05-2023, 07:12 PM

i love when the stat nerds duke it out!

JRX · 07-05-2023, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

i love when the stat nerds duke it out!

Theres really no reason to bother anymore. Most of the people arguing have zero understanding of the stats they're using.

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jhssketchcards · 07-05-2023, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theshowandme

Trout cards will still be pricey at the National. He’s not dead and he’s still better than 99% of the league and his generation

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Whoa I thought Elly was now the best in the game. I was told he’s better than Mantle.

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SaveMeTheGum · 07-05-2023, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 49ersSF

If Trout is the player everyone claims he is then he should have easily led those Angels teams to division championships. The A's won 6 division titles during Trout's career with absolutely nobody on their teams. Their payroll for their entire team was often less than Trout's alone. So what is Trout's true value if a franchise can consistently reach the playoffs with so little while the Angels payroll is consistently in the top 10 and can't even manage a single playoff win in his career.

Sidenote. People blame the owner. The owner bought the team in 2003. With Vlad Guerrero as their primary star and a nearly similar amount of talent surrounding him as Trout the Angels did the following.

2004 92-70 1st place
2005 95-67 1st place
2006 89-73 2nd place
2007 94-68 1st place
2008 100-62 1st place
2009 97-65 1st place

This is what the Angels did prior to Trout's arrival in 2010. Same owner. Same level of talent. Same division.

Trout years...

2010 80-82 3rd place
2011 86-76 2nd place
2012 89-73 3rd place
2013 78-84 3rd place
2014 98-64 1st place (swept in only playoff appearance)
2015 85-77 3rd place
2016 74-88 4th place
2017 80-82 2nd place
2018 80-82 4th place
2019 72-90 4th place
2020 26-34 4th place
2021 77-85 4th place
2022 73-89 3rd place

People commonly say that the Angels robbed him of his true greatness. Perhaps Trout robber the franchise of it's greatness after 5 first place finishes in 6 years before his arrival.

I'm a huge Pujols guy, but that contract was an albatross for the Angels. Interesting the timing as he signed after the 2011 season.

theshowandme · 07-05-2023, 07:44 PM

Please go to the national and try to convince people to sell you Trout at a heavy discount because he has not done anything in October.

Report back here

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Bcr · 07-05-2023, 07:47 PM

Adding trout to the list of discount buys in the off-season.

OhioLawyerF5 · 07-05-2023, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SupermanBrandon

Who are the best hitters, fielders and bag stealers from 2011-2020? And where do they rank all-time?

You keep trying to make this argument, but the athletes and their skill are superior in the modern game than any era before. Trout being superior to his peers is not the negative you seem to keep passive-aggresively alluding to.

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JoshMN · 07-05-2023, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theshowandme

eye test still matters

The smell test can also be a solid evaluation tool. However it is often overlooked these days, I’m sad to say.

wharfrat7624 · 07-05-2023, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theshowandme

Trout cards will still be pricey at the National. He’s not dead and he’s still better than 99% of the league and his generation

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And remember when the so called experts said his career was over last year!!! Oy vey…

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wharfrat7624 · 07-05-2023, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoshMN

The smell test can also be a solid evaluation tool. However it is often overlooked these days, I’m sad to say.

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wharfrat7624 · 07-05-2023, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theshowandme

Please go to the national and try to convince people to sell you Trout at a heavy discount because he has not done anything in October.

Report back here

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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

wharfrat7624 · 07-05-2023, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SupermanBrandon

Take away WAR...what do you have?

Still have 3 MVP’s

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tjforce · 07-05-2023, 09:53 PM

When I evaluate greatness, I like to do a test where I look at a guy's resume and see how holes they have in it relative to other greats. Here's the criteria I could think of off the top of my head:

-Cumulative stats and milestones
-Single season milestone stats
-"Best player on the planet" status
-Advanced metrics
-Championships
-Post season success
-Memorable moments/Clutch performances
-Awards

Now, on one extreme, if you look at guys like Babe Ruth or Willie Mays, they probably don't have a single one of these missing on their resumes. And that's why they are considered two of the greatest of all time. Guys like Cobb or Bonds are up there to, and might have 1 or so of these missing from their resumes, but that's it.

When I look at Trout's career, thus far, this is what I see (non-bolded criteria are currently missing):

-Cumulative stats and milestones
-Single season milestone stats
-"Best player on the planet" status
-Advanced metrics
-Championships
-Post season success
-Memorable moments/Clutch performances
-Awards

It's a big deal to have the 3 check marks that he does, but at the moment there are just too many holes in the resume to put him in the inner circle of the HOF. It's plenty to get him in right now, and he still has a chance to check a few more of those off the list if he can get to 500 HRs, or 3,000 hits, or get on a winning team and at least perform well in the playoffs. But now you're counting on it happening on the backend of his career if you want him to get into the inner circle.

jhssketchcards · 07-05-2023, 09:56 PM

If you could start a team with just one player in the league it could be any player currently, who are you picking? I doubt many would pick Trout like they used to unfortunately. It’s sad to see him hurt so much. He’s good for the game. I don’t think any GM would pick him as the one player to start a team with because they’d only get him for 130-140 games

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Gem10collection · 07-05-2023, 10:00 PM

He was the best player in the game for about a decade, got 3 mvp's, 1st bal hof. That as good as his resume will ever get. Not getting to 600 hr or 3k hits, not getting to all-time goat talk, not going to be affectionately remembered and loved like a griffey or even big hurt. Will just become a boring line in baseball history in 30 years.

ThoseBackPages · 07-05-2023, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gem10collection

He was the best player in the game for about a decade, got 3 mvp's, 1st bal hof. That as good as his resume will ever get. Not getting to 600 hr or 3k hits, not getting to all-time goat talk, not going to be affectionately remembered and loved like a griffey or even big hurt. Will just become a boring line in baseball history in 30 years.

hahaha

BigSeph · 07-05-2023, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shankweather

Good comparison, except that Murphy was literally half the player Trout was through their age 31 seasons.

meh

About 2/3rds as many HRs and MVP awards.

5x gold glove winner too.

fabiani12333 · 07-05-2023, 10:34 PM

For the Trout defenders -- the debate is done; it's over. He keeps getting hurt year after year. On top of that, his performance has clearly dropped off and he is now past his prime.

I don't say these things lightly. I have some nice Trout cards -- the dude is a class act -- but the truth is the truth.

I repeat -- the debate is over. Holding out hope that he reaches 500 home runs is not seeing the forest from the trees.

If you're highly invested in Trout cards, you're screwed -- sorry. The warning signs have been there for several years now.

ThoseBackPages · 07-05-2023, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

For the Trout defenders -- the debate is done; it's over. He keeps getting hurt year after year. On top of that, his performance has clearly dropped off and he is now past his prime.

I don't say these things lightly. I have some nice Trout cards -- the dude is a class act -- but the truth is the truth.

I repeat -- the debate is over. Holding out hope that he reaches 500 home runs is not seeing the forest from the trees.

If you're highly invested in Trout cards, you're screwed -- sorry. The warning signs have been there for several years now.

people that invest in cards are not the brightest folks.

Trout and his cards will be fine

07-05-2023, 07:05 PM	#21703
49ersSF Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Location: San Francisco Posts: 3,908	Angels record without Trout since 2015 135-151 .472 win % with Trout since 2015 567-627 .474 win % The Angels seem unaffected by Trout's wins above replacement. __________________ They see what they have been told to see.

07-05-2023, 07:12 PM	#21707
ThoseBackPages Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Long Island Posts: 89,857 ThoseBackPages	i love when the stat nerds duke it out! __________________ Pumpers Paradise #YouCryIBuy Four things that we cannot change each others minds about: Politics, Religion, Third Party Grading, and 2021 Bowman's Best Rookie Cards

07-05-2023, 09:53 PM	#21719
tjforce Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 23,357	When I evaluate greatness, I like to do a test where I look at a guy's resume and see how holes they have in it relative to other greats. Here's the criteria I could think of off the top of my head: -Cumulative stats and milestones -Single season milestone stats -"Best player on the planet" status -Advanced metrics -Championships -Post season success -Memorable moments/Clutch performances -Awards Now, on one extreme, if you look at guys like Babe Ruth or Willie Mays, they probably don't have a single one of these missing on their resumes. And that's why they are considered two of the greatest of all time. Guys like Cobb or Bonds are up there to, and might have 1 or so of these missing from their resumes, but that's it. When I look at Trout's career, thus far, this is what I see (non-bolded criteria are currently missing): -Cumulative stats and milestones -Single season milestone stats -"Best player on the planet" status -Advanced metrics -Championships -Post season success -Memorable moments/Clutch performances -Awards It's a big deal to have the 3 check marks that he does, but at the moment there are just too many holes in the resume to put him in the inner circle of the HOF. It's plenty to get him in right now, and he still has a chance to check a few more of those off the list if he can get to 500 HRs, or 3,000 hits, or get on a winning team and at least perform well in the playoffs. But now you're counting on it happening on the backend of his career if you want him to get into the inner circle. __________________ "Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because it’s the best thing going. Wooooo!"

07-05-2023, 07:03 PM	#21702
theshowandme Member Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 5,047 theshowandme nova_cards	eye test still matters Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

07-05-2023, 07:06 PM	#21704
theshowandme Member Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 5,047 theshowandme nova_cards	Imagine if he could pitch Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

07-05-2023, 07:06 PM	#21705
theshowandme Member Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 5,047 theshowandme nova_cards	Trout cards will still be pricey at the National. He’s not dead and he’s still better than 99% of the league and his generation Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

07-05-2023, 07:44 PM	#21711
theshowandme Member Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 5,047 theshowandme nova_cards	Please go to the national and try to convince people to sell you Trout at a heavy discount because he has not done anything in October. Report back here Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

07-05-2023, 07:47 PM	#21712
Bcr Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 2,747	Adding trout to the list of discount buys in the off-season.

07-05-2023, 09:56 PM	#21720
jhssketchcards Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 11,388 jhssketchcards2012	If you could start a team with just one player in the league it could be any player currently, who are you picking? I doubt many would pick Trout like they used to unfortunately. It’s sad to see him hurt so much. He’s good for the game. I don’t think any GM would pick him as the one player to start a team with because they’d only get him for 130-140 games Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

07-05-2023, 10:00 PM	#21721
Gem10collection Member Join Date: Feb 2019 Posts: 789	He was the best player in the game for about a decade, got 3 mvp's, 1st bal hof. That as good as his resume will ever get. Not getting to 600 hr or 3k hits, not getting to all-time goat talk, not going to be affectionately remembered and loved like a griffey or even big hurt. Will just become a boring line in baseball history in 30 years.

07-05-2023, 10:34 PM	#21724
fabiani12333 Member Join Date: Jan 2017 Posts: 11,732	For the Trout defenders -- the debate is done; it's over. He keeps getting hurt year after year. On top of that, his performance has clearly dropped off and he is now past his prime. I don't say these things lightly. I have some nice Trout cards -- the dude is a class act -- but the truth is the truth. I repeat -- the debate is over. Holding out hope that he reaches 500 home runs is not seeing the forest from the trees. If you're highly invested in Trout cards, you're screwed -- sorry. The warning signs have been there for several years now.