Official ECF thread: (2)Boston Celtics vs. (4)Cleveland Cavaliers

[JasonM32]

Originally Posted by BGT Masters

It does make sense when you think about it though, over looking defense completely. The entire league now has done away with basketball fundamentals like dribbling and defense.

The game is a glorified 3 point shooting contest in which the team with the overwhelming talent usually wins. Golden State. All the best players want to play together on the top 2 to 4 teams. Everybody is trying to scramble to get on the next super team and win some cheap rings. Whatever floats your boat.

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by JasonM32

Today's young big men have virtually no accomplishments other than good stats for bad teams. They are out of the lineup with injuries every other week. In addition to that, the league is weeding centers completely out of the game unless they can shoot three pointers. Lastly, only one of those 5 can actually guard anyone. Laughable.

Yep but they have high VORP’s so.....

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by drobfan8

Ha ha, wow.

When Tim Duncan was drafted in 97 the Spurs were talking about playing Perdue at the 5, TD at the 4 and Robinson at the 3. And this was 10 years in to his career.
Robinson was more athletic than AD, same with Hakeem. These dudes were gazelles.

Just because a 7 foot guy takes 3s now, it doesn't mean those guys wouldn't have been able to develop that shot. How long you think it would take Hakeem and Robinson to develop that shot? I'd say a summer. They also all had jump shots, I doubt they would struggle to extend to the 3.

To think that players are "more skilled now" at the big position is hilarious. They have no moves.

The 3 is also fools gold, have a look at the Cs today. It's not a tough skill, everyone shoots them now.

Maybe. They had entire careers to develop a FT shot, how many of them shoot it better than today’s big men? Or were they just not working on that?

[JasonM32]

Originally Posted by jr24ai3

Remember how good everyone thought Kevin Love was when he was averaging 26 and 14. Suddenly he's looked at like a scrub in Cleveland.

Yep, big numbers on bad teams.

Jordan Clarkson was putting in 15 points per game in LA. He can't even get on the floor in Cleveland when they are competing to go to the Finals.

[BlueXtreme]

Originally Posted by JasonM32

Yep, big numbers on bad teams.

Jordan Clarkson was putting in 15 points per game in LA. He can't even get on the floor in Cleveland when they are competing to go to the Finals.

He was on the floor. He just didn’t do anything

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by JasonM32

The game is a glorified 3 point shooting contest in which the team with the overwhelming talent usually wins. Golden State. All the best players want to play together on the top 2 to 4 teams. Everybody is trying to scramble to get on the next super team and win some cheap rings. Whatever floats your boat.

You realize 7 different teams have won the title in the past 10 years right?

Do you know how far you have to go back to find 7 teams in 10 years win a title?

[BGT Masters]

Originally Posted by cinnakaok

That's bc defense doesn't sell tickets. Offense does. Guys like Ben Wallace who was a key part to the pistons title run would be a bench player in today's game

It used to. What a team to watch those Pistons. I remember it got my girlfriend into the sport until the team broke up. I loved hard nosed defense and the rivalries that came with it.

Originally Posted by JasonM32

The game is a glorified 3 point shooting contest in which the team with the overwhelming talent usually wins. Golden State. All the best players want to play together on the top 2 to 4 teams. Everybody is trying to scramble to get on the next super team and win some cheap rings. Whatever floats your boat.

You're preaching to the quire. I'm not a fan of what the NBA has become. Though ring chasing isn't new. It was more for players in the twilight of the career as opposed to now. Superstar players in their prime used to want to be the man by beating him not joining him.

[cinnakaok]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

You realize 7 different teams have won the title in the past 10 years right?

Do you know how far you have to go back to find 7 teams in 10 years win a title?

6 different teams won between 1998-2008 so maybe not 7 but close

[JasonM32]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

Maybe. They had entire careers to develop a FT shot, how many of them shoot it better than today’s big men? Or were they just not working on that?

Everyone has a right to their own opinion, so it's all good but I think you are smoking crack. Patrick Ewing would have ate any and all of the guys on that list for breakfast and Patrick Ewing is no Shaq or Hakeem. Also, David Robinson isn't as far away from Hakeem as people like to think. Dude was DPOY, score 71 points in one game, two rings, Dream Team, etc.

Boogie Cousins is a fat idiot. A hotheaded malcontent. It will be a miracle if he accomplishes anything in this game. KAT is already mad at his coach for working him too hard, AD is injured every 5 minute. Jokic I like but he's nowhere near the level of even a guy like Zo. Stop the madness.

[Lklk52]

Whoever put that list of todays centers over the Group of Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Zo, Ewing is smoking Crack!!! I would put Motumbo & Parrish over all those tound guys besides AD & Towns! The ability of the 90s centers to score in the post was 50 times better than todays bigs, Shaq & Ewing just overpowered you and Hakeem, Parish & D Rob would school todays guys with post Moves.

On a side note, Lebron moves to 2-3 for me behind MJ and right with Kareem.

[jataman2612]

Originally Posted by aaron2

I’m not sure how much value will be given to that pick, unless some team falls in love with trae young or something

From a team perspective, LA would probably have to give up Randle for Lebron and PG cap-wise which is an easy decision for them. They have a decent supporting cast and are a young team craving veteran leadership.

Houston almost made a deal for Melo last off season which leads me to believe if they can get Lebron-Harden-CP3 together they will get that deal done in a heartbeat

I see a lot of Lebron to Philly talk and as far as that goes, Philly has a good thing going and let’s be honest Simmons isn’t a jump shooter and Lebron won’t settle for being one as they both need the ball to create so that’s not gonna happen

No player wants to go to Cleveland so I don’t see Kawhi heading there in any sort of deal. Lebron hooked his buddies up with deals and now it’s come to the point that to really be competitive for titles in this league you need to be part of a super team and Lebron isn’t...he’s just in an easy conference

I don't understand why he would go to the West. He wants the best chance to get to the Finals so why would he go to the West and have to deal with Golden State in order to get there? Just doesn't make sense to me.

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

Yep but they have high VORP’s so.....

Can you give me a reason why a guy like Ewing who is considered an all time great center doesn’t have one season that statistically compares to Nikola Jokics 2nd season?

[jr24ai3]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

Can you give me a reason why a guy like Ewing who is considered an all time great center doesn’t have one season that statistically compares to Nikola Jokics 2nd season?

They don't play defense in the regular season today.

[cinnakaok]

Originally Posted by BGT Masters

It used to. What a team to watch those Pistons. I remember it got my girlfriend into the sport until the team broke up. I loved hard nosed defense and the rivalries that came with it.



You're preaching to the quire. I'm not a fan of what the NBA has become. Though ring chasing isn't new. It was more for players in the twilight of the career as opposed to now. Superstar players in their prime used to want to be the man by beating him not joining him.

Those pistons where my favorite team growing up. They were the definition of a team everyone knew there role and did it well. I remeber being the only person on my high school team thinking the Piston would beat the Lakers. Oh the practice after game 5 was great watching everyone on my team run 10 sucides while I watched.

And it also changed the NBA I still think had Prince not played like he did that playoff the Pistons draft Melo and not Darko my what could have been

[BlueXtreme]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

Maybe. They had entire careers to develop a FT shot, how many of them shoot it better than today’s big men? Or were they just not working on that?

How dare you come in here with that logic?! You’re talking about legends. Threes? They could learn to fly if they wanted. It just wasn’t a part of the game.. OKAY?!

[Lklk52]

Refs didnt call touch fouls all game long in the 80s-90s!! The Defenses each night were so much tougher than today!

[jr24ai3]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

Can you give me a reason why a guy like Ewing who is considered an all time great center doesn’t have one season that statistically compares to Nikola Jokics 2nd season?

Why can't Jokic average 1 block per game? oh yeah, no defense is being played.

[BGT Masters]

Originally Posted by JasonM32

Everyone has a right to their own opinion, so it's all good but I think you are smoking crack. Patrick Ewing would have ate any and all of the guys on that list for breakfast and Patrick Ewing is no Shaq or Hakeem. Also, David Robinson isn't as far away from Hakeem as people like to think. Dude was DPOY, score 71 points in one game, two rings, Dream Team, etc.

Boogie Cousins is a fat idiot. A hotheaded malcontent. It will be a miracle if he accomplishes anything in this game. KAT is already mad at his coach for working him too hard, AD is injured every 5 minute. Jokic I like but he's nowhere near the level of even a guy like Zo. Stop the madness.

Robinson was no joke. He missed a few prime years too because of his service. I wouldn't say he is underrated only because I watched him play enough to know better. And people think Ewing was some scrub must have been remembering the broke down version of Ewing when his knees finally did him in.

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by BlueXtreme

How dare you come in here with that logic?! You’re talking about legends. Threes? They could learn to fly if they wanted. It just wasn’t a part of the game.. OKAY?!

Hahahaha! It's funny 90s players would have no problem adjusting to todays game but todays players would melt and break apart and have no chance playing in the 90s.

[aaron2]

Originally Posted by jataman2612

I don't understand why he would go to the West. He wants the best chance to get to the Finals so why would he go to the West and have to deal with Golden State in order to get there? Just doesn't make sense to me.

I feel like you can argue that a fully healthy Celtics squad next year represents a similar obstacle

[JasonM32]

Originally Posted by jr24ai3

They don't play defense in the regular season today.

ding ding ding.

Let any one of those guys play against Riley and Ewing's Knicks. They'd be getting merked. The final score of games back then wasn't 130 to 115.

[cinnakaok]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

Can you give me a reason why a guy like Ewing who is considered an all time great center doesn’t have one season that statistically compares to Nikola Jokics 2nd season?

Ewing had 13 seasons where he average 20 or more points and 9 seasons where he average 10 or more boards

Jokic hasn't average 20 a game yet and the assists numbers are going to Jokic bc in the 90s centers played center not point guard

[alias21]

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

I agree with that, but you can’t actually say his supporting cast was anywhere up to par. That Celtics team has 3 max contract guys on the team plus role players who aren’t scrubs.

The Cavs team had Jeff Green tonight.

I’m sure somebody else covered this as I’m a few pages behind but....REALLY. Are you really including Hayward and kyrie on the list of players the cavs had to play against?

And horford is about the most boring max player you can have. He’s solid but he’s not leading anybody to the finals. Then you have a bunch of young guys on the Celtics. If the Celtics had kyrie and Hayward I could see acting like this was some great accomplishment but they didn’t. Lebron did what he was supposed to do. Advance to the finals against inferior competition

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

This is why the 'bigger, stronger, faster' argument for today's players over the 80's and 90's holds no water.

The top center remaining in the playoffs up til this point was Al Horford. There's a good reason why these teams lean so much on the 3. Big man true talent has all but disappeared as a whole.

Originally Posted by GeechQuest

I’d say there are more talented big men in the league currently than almost any other time in the league’s history

Cousins
Brow
KAT
Embiid
Jokic

All 5 would likely compete against any top 5 from any era.

Here’s the context of those 5 and where it can from.

I used those early 90s centers because that is the best era of big-men play in league history. We’re in the 2nd great big men era, and with the addition of Ayton it’s possible that we look back 20 years from now and see all these guys move past many of those 90s centers.

[GeechQuest]

Originally Posted by alias21

I’m sure somebody else covered this as I’m a few pages behind but....REALLY. Are you really including Hayward and kyrie on the list of players the cavs had to play against?

And horford is about the most boring max player you can have. He’s solid but he’s not leading anybody to the finals. Then you have a bunch of young guys on the Celtics. If the Celtics had kyrie and Hayward I could see acting like this was some great accomplishment but they didn’t. Lebron did what he was supposed to do. Advance to the finals against inferior competition

So talent level = how exciting you are.

And no, Tatum and Brown are max contract guys. If both were FAs this next season they’d get max deals.