Goat debate Lebron vs Jordan...

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by SupermanBrandon

Is GOATcards passionate about this topic? I can't tell.

what more would you need

[GOATcards]

chances of being the GOAT, all and every last thing considered

MJ - 75%
Bill - 15%
Bron/Tim - 5% each

prove me wrong lol

[Zedlaw]

Lebron has had an amazing career. For a kid to enter the league with all his hype and still exceed it is incredible. He’s boiled the Goat argument down to a simple matter of taste. The highs of Jordan or the brilliance and dependability of Lebron

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by Zedlaw

The highs of Jordan or the brilliance and dependability of Lebron

huh? How does MJ lack brilliance/dependability

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

huh? How does MJ lack brilliance/dependability

If I interpret it correctly I would put it like this....

Do you want 13 years of A+ MJ or 20 Years of A to A- Lebron

Or a different way if Jordan is rated 100 and Lebron is 98, but you can get 7 more years and counting from Lebron, is it worth it?

I think that becomes a pick em decision when looked at that way. Like how Bill Simmons said Bird shined brighter than Magic but Magic gave you 12 great years vs. Bird's 9.

[imbluestreak23]

If MJ is 100, I'd say Bron is a 96-97, but the difference is, Bron as a 97 went out and sought 3 different situations that were favorable to him after his first 6-7 years in Cleveland. Those situations, representing 2/3rds of his career were situations he hand picked.

Bron started the panziest trend in all of sports, joining forces with competition to earn hardware to even get in the conversation. How folks don't ding him for that is just, ugh.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

If I interpret it correctly I would put it like this....

Do you want 13 years of A+ MJ or 20 Years of A to A- Lebron

Or a different way if Jordan is rated 100 and Lebron is 98, but you can get 7 more years and counting from Lebron, is it worth it?

I think that becomes a pick em decision when looked at that way. Like how Bill Simmons said Bird shined brighter than Magic but Magic gave you 12 great years vs. Bird's 9.

oh if it's about accumulated career VORP (whether regular season or playoffs) it's LeBron by a mile.

somehow career VORP doesn't settle the GOAT argument

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

If MJ is 100, I'd say Bron is a 96-97, but the difference is, Bron as a 97 went out and sought 3 different situations that were favorable to him after his first 6-7 years in Cleveland. Those situations, representing 2/3rds of his career were situations he hand picked.

Bron started the panziest trend in all of sports, joining forces with competition to earn hardware to even get in the conversation. How folks don't ding him for that is just, ugh.

it's about doing whatever it takes to win, someone pointed out the MJ would do it too if that's what it took to win, and that's obviously correct

[SupermanBrandon]

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

If MJ is 100, I'd say Bron is a 96-97, but the difference is, Bron as a 97 went out and sought 3 different situations that were favorable to him after his first 6-7 years in Cleveland. Those situations, representing 2/3rds of his career were situations he hand picked.

Bron started the panziest trend in all of sports, joining forces with competition to earn hardware to even get in the conversation. How folks don't ding him for that is just, ugh.

Unfortunately with the brilliance that is Lebron...this is how people are going to remember him, for a long time. He changed the league. And it wasn't for the best. He took shortcuts. He showed others how to do it as well. You can't be the GOAT if you hand picked your teams, but still lost more than you won.

[SupermanBrandon]

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

If MJ is 100, I'd say Bron is a 96-97, but the difference is, Bron as a 97 went out and sought 3 different situations that were favorable to him after his first 6-7 years in Cleveland. Those situations, representing 2/3rds of his career were situations he hand picked.

Bron started the panziest trend in all of sports, joining forces with competition to earn hardware to even get in the conversation. How folks don't ding him for that is just, ugh.

Ugh...

[brothertona]

Celtics started it actually


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[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by imbluestreak23

If MJ is 100, I'd say Bron is a 96-97, but the difference is, Bron as a 97 went out and sought 3 different situations that were favorable to him after his first 6-7 years in Cleveland. Those situations, representing 2/3rds of his career were situations he hand picked.

Bron started the panziest trend in all of sports, joining forces with competition to earn hardware to even get in the conversation. How folks don't ding him for that is just, ugh.

I agree with you. I hate the guy and all he represents for competition. I think it's true Jordan made the game uglier because people tried to do the iso score and shoot every time and that doesn't work out for basically every other player like it did him.

But Lebron ruined it by calling it player empowerment and causing everyone to look at what he stacks and try to stack even harder and change teams like it's musical chairs. It really is hard to watch.

Then his supporters say well he donated such and such with his decision proceeds. Great job. That's not the point. That had far reaching implications and still goes on today.

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by brothertona

Celtics started it actually


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The celtics traded a 20/10 guy in Al Jefferson for KG who wanted out and a top 5 draft pick for Ray Allen.

None of those players were Lebron level. But let's say they did start it. He tried to do the same thing and still couldn't manage a .500 record against the west, 11-12 in 4 years. Didn't play the Warriors once in that run.

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

it's about doing whatever it takes to win, someone pointed out the MJ would do it too if that's what it took to win, and that's obviously correct

I agree in principle. However the evidence don't back that up. They simply worked and improved and advanced further and further every year to climb the mountain and didn't give it up once they arrived.

Now, had other teams stacked opposite them to try and take them down I could see them try to add a piece to neutralize it. But the point is, Lebron did all that and still lost more than he won. If Jordan did that to win, I'm fairly confident he would've won. But I don't like the what if arena. That's the Lebron side of things. If only everything were different then Lebron would be the winner.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

I agree in principle. However the evidence don't back that up. They simply worked and improved and advanced further and further every year to climb the mountain and didn't give it up once they arrived.

Now, had other teams stacked opposite them to try and take them down I could see them try to add a piece to neutralize it. But the point is, Lebron did all that and still lost more than he won. If Jordan did that to win, I'm fairly confident he would've won. But I don't like the what if arena. That's the Lebron side of things. If only everything were different then Lebron would be the winner.

It's been brought up countless times that when Bron had support comparable to MJ's - especially Pippen - that he did much better than when it was Boobie or Mo.

It's also been brought up countless times that given comparable opportunity in '11, MJ would have done much better (which is very plausible).

I advocate the all-things-considered route for comparison because it's only fair; I hate gerrymandering arguments to get a desired outcome. (And I still say MJ's resume is more impressive. And I factor in work-ethic where I don't see evidence of Bron delivering GOAT-level work-ethic; the Shaqtin' lowlight reel would be Exhibit A, also the flop reels (and I consider flopping a form of cheating, whether or not it's part of the prevailing player culture; it's unsportsmanlike).)

When it comes to work ethic, I gather that Kobe is the standard-setter; maybe his GOAT score should be upped accordingly.

[hermanotarjeta]

LeChoke, leflop, lequit.

You never heard anyone calling jordan mcchoke, mcflop or mcquit.

[6celtics33]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

It's been brought up countless times that when Bron had support comparable to MJ's - especially Pippen - that he did much better than when it was Boobie or Mo.

It's also been brought up countless times that given comparable opportunity in '11, MJ would have done much better (which is very plausible).

I advocate the all-things-considered route for comparison because it's only fair; I hate gerrymandering arguments to get a desired outcome. (And I still say MJ's resume is more impressive. And I factor in work-ethic where I don't see evidence of Bron delivering GOAT-level work-ethic; the Shaqtin' lowlight reel would be Exhibit A, also the flop reels (and I consider flopping a form of cheating, whether or not it's part of the prevailing player culture; it's unsportsmanlike).)

When it comes to work ethic, I gather that Kobe is the standard-setter; maybe his GOAT score should be upped accordingly.

Yes no argument in that Boobie and Mo don't equate to Pippen. I just hate it when people act like Wade, Kyrie, and AD don't either. Not to mention 20-10 guys as a 3rd option.

I have Lebron far ahead of Kobe but I get the thinking there.

[dream34]

WHOA! Now we are saying there is no evidence of Lebron's GOAT level work ethic!?

Holy cow guys!!!! I know we are at the point that pushing narratives is the only thing left to do in these GOAT conversations, but let's keep things at least a little factual.

[rhigh2390]

Originally Posted by dream34

WHOA! Now we are saying there is no evidence of Lebron's GOAT level work ethic!?

Holy cow guys!!!! I know we are at the point that pushing narratives is the only thing left to do in these GOAT conversations, but let's keep things at least a little factual.

I'm not saying he doesn't have a good work ethic, but he has missed the past 2 games because of a foot problem, but was able to go to the Super Bowl. Isn't the best look.


Laughed though when he was getting booed and had to "crown" himself for everyone to see. I wonder if him and KD go to the same insecurity therapy sessions...

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by dream34

WHOA! Now we are saying there is no evidence of Lebron's GOAT level work ethic!?

Holy cow guys!!!! I know we are at the point that pushing narratives is the only thing left to do in these GOAT conversations, but let's keep things at least a little factual.

maybe you can square GOAT-level work ethic with a 7-minute Shaqtin' a Fool compilation.

Harden shows up in Shaqtin' too, not giving a damn when the ball's rolling on the floor, letting opponents pick it up.

[JohnnyHatesJazz]

Jordan was more fun to watch plus he had that eye of the tiger, rip your heart out when the game is on the line mentality. Bird had it too. Great era but as far as Jordan or Lebron, 100% MJ.

[kd the sniper]

No debate.. Jordan IS the GOAT

[pingbling23]

Originally Posted by JohnnyHatesJazz

Jordan was more fun to watch plus he had that eye of the tiger, rip your heart out when the game is on the line mentality. Bird had it too. Great era but as far as Jordan or Lebron, 100% MJ.

Lebron not to shabby though. 6-2 averaging 35/10/6 in game 7s and one of the best all time in the clutch.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

it's about doing whatever it takes to win, someone pointed out the MJ would do it too if that's what it took to win, and that's obviously correct

Players would gravitate to MJ's team, that would be the difference.

[BGT Masters]

Originally Posted by pingbling23

Lebron not to shabby though. 6-2 averaging 35/10/6 in game 7s and one of the best all time in the clutch.

What were MJs game 7 finals stats? Anyone know off hand?