90s PMG Pumped To Ad Nauseam On Social Media

[AbraCalabro]

Originally Posted by mc1

Like Ive told you before champ, mind your own business. Why are you worried about what other people spend their money on? Why are you worried about some set like PMGs that you despise? You really think most of us are out here saving our pennies to spend on hyped up sets? You really think most of us have the money to drop $2500 on COMMON from that set? Much less 25k on a Barkley, 50k on mcGrady Green or 40k on a Duncan red. Whos really buying those cards? Collectors or investors? If they are investors, why do you care? Let them burn if/when they drop in price. Like the Duncan has done recently.

Stop trying to “save” the collecting world.

Take your own advice and mind your own business and get out of the thread then. See how easy that is instead of actually producing a rebuttal that shows you've read and understood what you're trying to deconstruct? You have nothing. Nothing in your quoted post provides an argument, but it does show that you're unable or unwilling to read through to comprehension.

Originally Posted by mc1

Any proof to back these claims? Anything besides wild speculation and lies?

Are you kidding? You are absolutely clueless. I said it can be done, there is no onus of proof here. There is no wild speculation and there is no lie.

Here's how it works, simplified:

X and Y are friends, X wants to increase perception of value in his item. He lists it with an auction house. X and Y can recruit Z, 1, 2 and 3 who also have accounts, or they can open accounts under names of friends or relatives willing to help out and manage the accounts directly and offer them a cut.

The auction goes live. The shilling flies under the radar. X's item sells for a new, record price, X has money, so he can pay for direct from one of the accounts he manages directly, or he sends the money to one of his fellow colluders.

The item is then held and is put up for auction again by the winning account, the same process repeats, except now it sells for even more. X has money, so it's no problem to get it paid for.

The trend kicks off and then the item is listed again by the winning account. Now that the hype train is chugging along, they don't need to worry about shilling, the perception of value has been changed. X is satisfied with the amount of money he will make now, no shilling happens once that number is achieved, X dumps the item.

The more popular the item is, the more heat it's generating, the easier it is to execute to successful completion. Especially because X can reference "legitimate" sales. I already touched on this.

There it is for you in plain English. Have you actually read my posts? What else do you need to be educated on?

[oldgoldy97]

[pcptrade]

Originally Posted by mc1

Hypocrite. Youve been an investorboi way longer than pcp. Youre just mad your investments havent worked out. Youre just mad hes actually a good investor.

Sound familiar? 90s MJ Refractors: A Good Investment?

Originally Posted by mc1

Starboy101,

You better be buried with ALL your cards when you pass. Better yet, have your family burn them when that day comes.

Thats the only way you will prove to us that youre not one of them.

He is an investorboi who has programmed his brain to believe that he is a collectoboi. It is not uncommon here

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by pcptrade

And he calls me an investoboi and bs artist. Gotta love BO psychosis and hypocrisy

[mc1]

I hear Hugo Chavez has multiple copies of Red and Green PMG Jordans in his collection. I wonder if Gaddafi has some stashed away as well?

[Starman101]

Originally Posted by pcptrade

He is an investorboi who has programmed his brain to believe that he is a collectoboi. It is not uncommon here

I've made my points clear in this thread and that's all that really matters

I actually am a collector

You said yourself you are only interested in cards as investments

That's why you're probably as boring as hell and just come here for "entertainment"

[mc1]

“True Collector”

90s MJ Refractors: A Good Investment?

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=946883

Gaslighting doesnt work on me pal. You probably work at the Ministry of Truth.

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by rj.cataldo

Here I did it. Here is the sales history I can see for the Jordan PMG available on card ladder going back to 2011. Obviously there may be unaccounted for private sales - but that does very little for the “pump and dump scheme” you have noted. There are a few early sales on eBay I can’t see the SN for, but I’ve listed the grade auction site and SN of every card I can see. From what I see SN #18 was sold twice (in 2011 & 2015), and SN# 56 was sold twice (in 2020 and 2021).

*edited with more sales I missed

6/25/2022 - BGS 7 $450,000 (Goldin) SN# 79/100
10/25/2021 - BGS 8.5 $399,740 (Goldin) SN# 56/100
7/17/2021 - BGS 8 $312,000 (PWCC) SN# 73/100
5/23/2021 - BGS 6.5 $242,400 (Goldin) SN# 20/100
2/4/2021 - BGS 8 $480,000 (Heritage) SN# 52/100
2/1/2021 - PSA 6.5 $480,000 (Goldin) SN# 95/100
12/11/2020 - PSA 6 $222,745 (Mile High) SN# 97/100
11/20/2020 - BGS 8.5 $233,700 (Goldin) SN# 56/100
10/20/2020 - BGS Auth $151,926 (PWCC) SN# 43/100
7/28/2019 - BGS AUTh $25,223 (eBay) SN#
5/31/2017 - BGS 8 $15,000 (eBay) SN# NA
5/16/2017 - BGS 8.5 $19,600 (PWCC) SN# 75/100
2/20/2017 - BGS 8.5 $9,323 (eBay) SN# NA
11/20/2016 - PSA Auth $21,453 (eBay) SN# 23/100
5/18/2016 - BGS 8 $9600 (PWCC) SN# 16/100
9/20/15 - SGC A $8988 (PWCC) SN# 22/100
2/13/15 - BGS 8 $10,100 (PWCC) SN# 18/100
11/6/14 - BGS 8.5 $10,001 (eBay) SN# 99/100
2/5/14 - BGS 8.5 $8099 (eBay) SN# N/A
10/20/13 - $7099 (eBay) SN# N/A
5/25/12 - BGs 9.5 $41,825 (Heritage) SN# 87/100
11/17/11 - $6800 (eBay) SN# 18/100
9/25/11 - $8600 (eBay) SN# N/A

damn, I vaguely recall from ca. 2000 (the dotcom bubble and initial graded-card crazy) that the Green PMGs were like half a million then, would that make them 8 figure cards now?

as for pump schemes that work, I assume they'd have to be of items that have close to a fine-art (in token form) appeal. Of course the red PMGs match the Bulls team colors but I'm guessing that both the red and the green must really pop in person for there to be such a chase. I can think of other hobby items I'd go for at that price range however (get me back that '15 M101 Ruth I had to sell to pay bills, please). MJ-wise it's hard to combine rarity, eye-appeal, and vintage-ness, I guess it would have to be a "pristine" auto'd 86S-117? Maybe just go for a signed game-used jersey or sneakers at that point. And with that caliber of collectible how do you even tell the difference between a pump and true FOMO? Only people with the big bucks would be "pumped" and more power to the pumpers in that case....

[mc1]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

And with that caliber of collectible how do you even tell the difference between a pump and true FOMO? Only people with the big bucks would be "pumped" and more power to the pumpers in that case....

Red Commons sell for $2000-2500. Im sure everyone thats being told to go out and buy these cant wait for the next commons to go up for auction! Dont want to miss out on the chance of a lifetime! Hello Steve Smith and Vinny Del Negro!

[jzx1103]

Originally Posted by mc1

Red Commons sell for $2000-2500. Im sure everyone thats being told to go out and buy these cant wait for the next commons to go up for auction! Dont want to miss out on the chance of a lifetime! Hello Steve Smith and Vinny Del Negro!

Hey don't you make fun of Steve Smith, he's an All Star and a Olympic Gold Medalist

[pcptrade]

Originally Posted by Starman101

I've made my points clear in this thread and that's all that really matters

I actually am a collector

You said yourself you are only interested in cards as investments

That's why you're probably as boring as hell and just come here for "entertainment"

Originally Posted by mc1

“True Collector”

90s MJ Refractors: A Good Investment?

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=946883

Gaslighting doesnt work on me pal. You probably work at the Ministry of Truth.

This why I love BO. If you want to know what cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy is, look no further. This thread is pure gem!

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by Starman101

You see...another reason PMGs are tainted for me

Ever notice many PMG owners (excluding real collectors) have a snooty attitude towards other great 90s cards like well here....lowly refractors (probably as 90s as it gets) game used /autos (with the typical response I don't know nothing about these cards) blah blah blah...

Because no other 90s cards matter because I own a PMG rhetoric they spew on social media as self proclaimed 90s guys

What a load of crap man

Wow

90s refractors would be getting the same "pump" treatment if the pumpers could actually unload all those greened copies on enough buyers willing to pay for them.

Who is the "victim" in high-dollar "pumps," exactly? If people have money to blow then let 'em blow the money, and if they naively fall for the pumps without doing their research, then let high-dollar fools and their money be parted. I don't see the problem. But I'm kinda figuring that high-dollar fools are a rare thing and for the most part the truly desirable cards pump themselves well enough. When I see auction-house hype for a Wagner that comes along once in a while, and the hype is along the lines of, "the few remaining available copies are disappearing into private collections," that sounds more like plain fact than a crooked-salesman "pump."

[GOATcards]

Originally Posted by mc1

Red Commons sell for $2000-2500. Im sure everyone thats being told to go out and buy these cant wait for the next commons to go up for auction! Dont want to miss out on the chance of a lifetime! Hello Steve Smith and Vinny Del Negro!

I'm obtuse enough that the point may be missing me. I don't relate to paying anything much less thousands of bucks for commons. But obviously there's a market for these for some folks and FOMO (wanting to obtain the item now in expectation of dramatic value-increase) could be either collector or speculator mentality at work. Or is it something besides FOMO that would explain such high-dollar demand for rare or low-numbered items?

[SoccerRCs]

Originally Posted by Blazed

Collect what you like and you don't have to worry about pump n dumps. I remember buying PMGs for $50 - $150. I also remember passing on a Jordan PMG red that sat on eBay for months at $500. But when money flows into the hobby, you can't bitch about missing the boat, which I think is what most of the "I hate PMGs" crowd is really pissed about.

I completely agree with this. I remember reading on this board, before joining, way back in 2015, all kinds of people saying that PMGs were being manipulated, the Jordan market was BS and was all going to crash, etc. Here we are 7 years later and still going up. But people comfort themselves by saying, "It's a decade long manipulation scheme!"

[Starman101]

Originally Posted by SoccerRCs

I completely agree with this. I remember reading on this board, before joining, way back in 2015, all kinds of people saying that PMGs were being manipulated, the Jordan market was BS and was all going to crash, etc. Here we are 7 years later and still going up. But people comfort themselves by saying, "It's a decade long manipulation scheme!"

Not exactly

As I stated several times in this thread the major manipulation occurred after 2019

Did you even read through this thread

So whos burner account is this now?

[Starman101]

Originally Posted by GOATcards

But I'm kinda figuring that high-dollar fools are a rare thing and for the most part the truly desirable cards pump themselves well enough

In some instances yes

But this take can be extremely niave when there's a big money incentive involved

[pcptrade]

Originally Posted by Starman101

Not exactly

As I stated several times in this thread the major manipulation occurred after 2019

Did you even read through this thread

So whos burner account is this now?

Did you even read other responses or is your brain not able to process it? Almost every asset class has gone up since 2019, many of them more than PMG's percentage wise. Yes, some of the assets' prices are unjustifiable to most while some see value in them or buy them as a symbol of social status. Why are bored apes still selling for 100K when there are 10,000 of them? They were $200 a year ago. How do you justify a 500X increase in price in one year? People have disposable income and are willing to speculate or collect/invest in what they like. You can call it manipulation or whatever. Did Step Curry, Mark Cuban, Shaq, Madonna, Eminem, Jimmy Falon etc buy bored ape NFT's for six figures to flip? Are they guilty of manipulating NFT prices when they are flaunting them on social media?

[mjwoop]

Like sands through the hourglass, these are the days of our blowout lives

[rj.cataldo]

Here is my biggest challenge with the auction house pump argument - it is an incredibly expensive risk to take. A good pump usually needs a critical mass of sales and a decent amount of inventory to capitalize and you better be sure there is a REAL and willing buyer for the card ultimately. The PMG for a given player is a hard card to find and corner enough supply.

Ebay is a great place to shill because it's easy to walk away and never complete the sale, but that becomes harder with the bigger auction houses where pretty much all of the recent sales have occurred. If you are completing payment (which I would venture to guess does occur in most cases), even to a co-conspirator, you are giving money to the auction house and the government. For these large dollar transactions that can get up to $50K-$100K. Those types of haircuts may be acceptable in money laundering, but they are far less pallatable if you have one or two cards you are trying to move.

It seems like an incredibly inefficient route to take for profit. That said, I don't doubt there are some people out there with nefarious intent when it comes to PMGs (or any other card in the market). I just think it's unfair to paint it as the majority of the market. I follow a lot of differnet collectors on IG, and PMG posts is a small percentage of what I see, but there are a lot of people (including me) who geniunely enjoy these cards.

[Starman101]

Originally Posted by AbraCalabro

Here's how it works, simplified:

X and Y are friends, X wants to increase perception of value in his item. He lists it with an auction house. X and Y can recruit Z, 1, 2 and 3 who also have accounts, or they can open accounts under names of friends or relatives willing to help out and manage the accounts directly and offer them a cut.

The auction goes live. The shilling flies under the radar. X's item sells for a new, record price, X has money, so he can pay for direct from one of the accounts he manages directly, or he sends the money to one of his fellow colluders.

The item is then held and is put up for auction again by the winning account, the same process repeats, except now it sells for even more. X has money, so it's no problem to get it paid for.

The trend kicks off and then the item is listed again by the winning account. Now that the hype train is chugging along, they don't need to worry about shilling, the perception of value has been changed. X is satisfied with the amount of money he will make now, no shilling happens once that number is achieved, X dumps the item.

The more popular the item is, the more heat it's generating, the easier it is to execute to successful completion. Especially because X can reference "legitimate" sales. I already touched on this.

There it is for you in plain English. Have you actually read my posts? What else do you need to be educated on?

You got 3 Gold Stars on this one

Dudes all remain in denial

Right on Abra

[AbraCalabro]

rj, just to follow up on your post, it seems like a convoluted way to do things to me as well, but once the spark is lit, you don't need to do it any further, it will run itself. I agree, this happens across the board on things desirable. Again, Nat Turner served as the legitimizing factor for pumps back in the day, these days there are a lot of guys with tons of money and they don't mind throwing it around on cards. Anyone who has stock can repeat this over and over, it's even easier these days.

Even if the stock is depleted and the supply is dispersed into various big money buyers, it can still be done. LBJ RPA ran Bill Lee around 100k more/less, the /23 version no less (will have to double check) and all of a sudden, some no name 'buys' one for 250k? ...and then immediately after the price was fixed / bar was raised, the prices shot up dramatically. Even in the six figure range, it can be done.

If any one wants to check out what I'm talking about with regard to getting around auction houses, start at 24:50 to about 27 minutes and you will get a clear idea of how it's done. I already spoon fed it to mc1 who is silent now, but I'm sure there are others who think I'm full of crap and making things up. <--- (rj, just to be clear, this isn't directed toward you.)

[AbraCalabro]

Originally Posted by Starman101

You got 3 Gold Stars on this one

Dudes all remain in denial

Right on Abra

Notice he has nothing but "mind your own business".

[rj.cataldo]

Originally Posted by AbraCalabro

rj, just to follow up on your post, it seems like a convoluted way to do things to me as well, but once the spark is lit, you don't need to do it any further, it will run itself. I agree, this happens across the board on things desirable. Again, Nat Turner served as the legitimizing factor for pumps back in the day, these days there are a lot of guys with tons of money and they don't mind throwing it around on cards. Anyone who has stock can repeat this over and over, it's even easier these days.

Even if the stock is depleted and the supply is dispersed into various big money buyers, it can still be done. LBJ RPA ran Bill Lee around 100k more/less, the /23 version no less (will have to double check) and all of a sudden, some no name 'buys' one for 250k? ...and then immediately after the price was fixed / bar was raised, the prices shot up dramatically. Even in the six figure range, it can be done.

If any one wants to check out what I'm talking about with regard to getting around auction houses, start at 24:50 to about 27 minutes and you will get a clear idea of how it's done. I already spoon fed it to mc1 who is silent now, but I'm sure there are others who think I'm full of crap and making things up. <--- (rj, just to be clear, this isn't directed toward you.)

Thanks for sharing - and I didn't take it as directed at me. You've always been gracious and helpful in our interactions, so I geniunely appreciate your perspective. I don't think you are inhernetly wrong either. I know this stuff can and does happen.

This situation (Wata) is one of the ways it can - with insiders manipulating sales. Where I take exception is the notion it is the singular reason for the rising price or that they are not cards desired by collectors. I think there are a lot of factors at play here, including the rapid rise across the sportscard industry which naturally lifts the tide for everything. The industry in general is insane, and those who have collected for a long time know that the last 3+ years is not like the 30 years that preceded it.

I'm in to my PMG for fractions of todays prices and have no intent to move it despite strong interest and pressure to sell from many collectors ever since I've owned it. I can at least say in my personal experience that interest is not a new phenomenom

[mc1]

You provided absolutely zero evidence of pumping for PMG reds. Zero. Youre Blowing Snow. I dont believe you. What else do you want me to say?

[Nomad]

Originally Posted by mc1

Red Commons sell for $2000-2500. Im sure everyone thats being told to go out and buy these cant wait for the next commons to go up for auction! Dont want to miss out on the chance of a lifetime! Hello Steve Smith and Vinny Del Negro!

Or on a similar theme hello 75 Nico Mannion.