Which one is more likely the next PMG?

[tjforce]

Originally Posted by drobfan8

Pretty simplistic view.

I own 0 Flawless Rookies. But it's pretty clear that the diamond is about adding to the aesthetic appeal of the card. Scarcity is what makes it valuable.

Like it or not, the Flawless Base Diamond RC is a chase card. And will only go up in value for the key guys.

Originally Posted by dengbang

Cards are simple if you are a collector.

Eye appeal, player selection, and nostalgia makes up for the majority of decision making when it comes to collecting cardboard.



Sent from my SM-S908U1 using Tapatalk

Here's the thing...

Why do people rip NT? For the RPAs

Why do people rip Prizm? Low end: Base and Silver rookies. High end: Golds and Black/Nebula 1 of 1.

Why do people rip Flawless? Logomen (with RPA inserts secondary)

The base cards have kind of become an afterthought. Heck, I have both the base Diamond Gold and RPA Gold of my PC guy, and while I like them both, neither can even sniff how much I enjoy the Prizm Gold, Prizm Nebula, Optic Nebula and One and One Black that I own.

[pcptrade]

Originally Posted by BigSeph

Rookie cards predate patch cards or pack-pulled autographed cards by a century.

Rare rookie cards are highly valued.

The reason a T206 Wagner is so expensive isn't because he was such a great player, and it certainly didn't have his signature or a piece of his jersey in the card. It's because it's rare.

There are fewer than 60 authenticated T206 Honus Wagners in existence.

There were 90 red PMG Jordans.

There are 20 2018-19 Luka Doncic Flawless RCs in existence.

There were 10 green PMG Jordans.

The shortsightedness of your post on this and other topics is that you are spiking the football 1 minute into a game and acting like you just won. There's a lot of time left to go. I bet you could have had a 1986 Fleer Jordan for a reasonable price in 1996, or a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle for a reasonable price in 1957.

Even on this thread about PMGs you might want to keep in mind that a green PMG Jordan from 96-97 could be had for less than $500 in the early 2000s.

But 23 years later, it looks so............ dumb.

Originally Posted by BigSeph

Let 25 rich guys fight it out over a player's Flawless /20 rookie card, and see what happens to the price.

1. T206 Wagner- Iconic card. Rare. Has a backstory to it (ATC stopped production in 1911 because Wagner did not allow it?). Wagner has no RPA or RC Autos
2. Mantle 52T- Iconic Card. Scarce. Not a true RC but has many things going for it such as the First year of Topps baseball, Player (Mickey Mantle) and a backstory contributing to scarcity (cases that were dumped in the Hudson river). There are no Mantle Rookie Auto/RPA's. Mantle has ~ 5000 graded 51 Bowman and 52T combined.
3. MJ 86F- Iconic card. MJ does not have a RPA/ Rookie Auto. MJ does not have that many RC variants like modern players who have tens of thousands of RC's.

What will make Panini Flawless Diamond (Auto/non-Auto) highly coveted and valuable in the future when there are many thousands of other Panini rookie cards (Auto and non-Auto) available for a given player? What makes you think that twenty five rich guys will chase Flawless Diamond (Auto/non-Auto) as their first choice over an NT/Flawless RPA (game/player worn, base and parallels) or a RC Gold Prizm/Gold Vinyl in the future? We currently don't have enough rich guys who can hold on to a Lebron Exquisite RPA and Brady Champ Ticket long enough to stop them from showing up at an auction every few weeks.

EDIT: Do you believe that buying Flawless Diamond now at current prices is akin to buying Mantle 52T in 1957, MJ 86F in 1996 and PMG Green for less than $500 in early 2000's, i.e.; there is plenty of upside from current price levels?

[tjforce]

Originally Posted by pcptrade

1. T206 Wagner- Iconic card. Rare. Has a backstory to it (ATC stopped production in 1911 because Wagner did not allow it?). Wagner has no RPA or RC Auto
2. Mantle 52T- Iconic Card. Scarce. Not a true RC but has many things going for it such as First year of Topps baseball, Player (Mickey Mantle) and a backstory to it (cases that were dumped in the Hudson river). No Mantle Rookie Auto and RPA
3. MJ 86F- Iconic card. MJ does not have a RPA/ Rookie Auto.

What will make Panini Flawless Diamond Autos highly coveted and valuable in the future when there are many thousands of other Rookie Autos available for a given player? What makes you think that twenty five rich guys will chase Flawless Diamond Autos as their first choice over an NT/Flawless RPA (game/player worn, base and parallels) or a RC Gold Prizm/Gold Vinyl in the future? We currently don't have enough rich guys who can hold on to a Lebron Exquisite RPA and Brady Champ Ticket long enough to stop them from showing up at an auction every few weeks.

EDIT: Do you believe that buying Flawless Diamond Autos now at current prices is akin to buying Mantle 52T in 1957, 86F in 1996 and PMG Green for less than 500, i.e; there is plenty of upside from current price levels?

Are you referring to the football Diamond autos or Basketball non-autos?

[pcptrade]

Originally Posted by tjforce

Are you referring to the football Diamond autos or Basketball non-autos?

Any Flawless Diamond RC's (Auto/non-Auto) for that matter

[Bosoxfan5990]

BigSeph probably thinks Eminence Silver Bar cards are top notch too.

[dengbang]

Originally Posted by BigSeph

Not pumping - I can buy more if they stay cheap.



Figured that would be your reply too. If anybody dares think outside the box or look for undervalued/underappreciated assets, the people who are most bothered are the folks buying status quo because "it's cool" or "that's what everybody else wants."

It's one thing to say think outside the box and it's another to say go out and meet some people. Lets be honest, do you really think card collectors care about diamonds?

We collect PMGs because of the design not because it has precious metals in it.

Sent from my SM-S908U1 using Tapatalk

[dengbang]

Originally Posted by tjforce

Here's the thing...



Why do people rip NT? For the RPAs



Why do people rip Prizm? Low end: Base and Silver rookies. High end: Golds and Black/Nebula 1 of 1.



Why do people rip Flawless? Logomen (with RPA inserts secondary)



The base cards have kind of become an afterthought. Heck, I have both the base Diamond Gold and RPA Gold of my PC guy, and while I like them both, neither can even sniff how much I enjoy the Prizm Gold, Prizm Nebula, Optic Nebula and One and One Black that I own.

Exactly. It's very easy to see what cards are highly desirable if you are a collector. Once you start forming theories as to why a card Will be desirable, it most likely won't.

Sent from my SM-S908U1 using Tapatalk

[dengbang]

Originally Posted by Bosoxfan5990

BigSeph probably thinks Eminence Silver Bar cards are top notch too.

At least with those there is melt value if it does contain the amount of silver they claim it does. You can't pry off these diamonds and sell it to your local jeweler.

Sent from my SM-S908U1 using Tapatalk

[fabiani12333]

What are refractor and PMGs? They are parallels of commonly found base cards. They are the premium version of a player's card.

Flawless diamond cards are not. They are a high-end, niche product.

[eastbayak]

BigSeph tried to pump a 3rd year prospect card as a rookie card in the baseball threads and massively failed (2021 Bowman’s Best Wander Franco).

Not surprised that he’s trying to pump something else now.

What football and TCGs are he pumping too?

[BigSeph]

Originally Posted by pcptrade

What will make Panini Flawless Diamond (Auto/non-Auto) highly coveted and valuable in the future when there are many thousands of other Panini rookie cards (Auto and non-Auto) available for a given player?

It's their rarest true rookie card. Simple as that.

What makes you think that twenty five rich guys will chase Flawless Diamond (Auto/non-Auto) as their first choice over an NT/Flawless RPA (game/player worn, base and parallels) or a RC Gold Prizm/Gold Vinyl in the future?

I'm not saying that they will. NT RPA will most likely be the most desirable rookie card of anyone, given that it's a true rookie + patch + auto.

We currently don't have enough rich guys who can hold on to a Lebron Exquisite RPA and Brady Champ Ticket long enough to stop them from showing up at an auction every few weeks.

Rich guys use losses to offset gains, you know. You don't know what cards they are picking up when they sell a Lebron RPA or Brady Ticket.

EDIT: Do you believe that buying Flawless Diamond now at current prices is akin to buying Mantle 52T in 1957, MJ 86F in 1996 and PMG Green for less than $500 in early 2000's, i.e.; there is plenty of upside from current price levels?

Yes.

[BigSeph]

Originally Posted by Bosoxfan5990

BigSeph probably thinks Eminence Silver Bar cards are top notch too.

What's the card# on the back? 1? 3? 20? 50?

If it's something like "LA-ZWL" then I don't give a rip.

[BigSeph]

Originally Posted by dengbang

We collect PMGs because of the design not because it has precious metals in it.

This is laughably stupid.

[BigSeph]

Originally Posted by eastbayak

BigSeph tried to pump a 3rd year prospect card as a rookie card in the baseball threads and massively failed (2021 Bowman’s Best Wander Franco).

Not surprised that he’s trying to pump something else now.

What football and TCGs are he pumping too?

Nice. Now the dogpile is complete, way to travel as a pack around this forum beating each other off simultaneously as you trash ideas that are outside the box.

I look for value.

If it upsets you so much, that's your problem.

One thing you won't find me doing is chasing a poster from forum to forum on Blowout harassing them and trying to de-legitimize anything they have to say. Which if you asked me, is quite pathetic.

Excellent rebuttal btw - you and the other mouth breather's first response is "HE'S JUST A PUMPER."

Way to really dissect the basics of the argument.

[dengbang]

Originally Posted by BigSeph

This is laughably stupid.

Another great response. Keep doing your thing.

Sent from my SM-S908U1 using Tapatalk

[Asian62150]

Originally Posted by BigSeph

It's their rarest true rookie card. Simple as that.

What about Gala?

Originally Posted by BigSeph

What's the card# on the back? 1? 3? 20? 50?

If it's something like "LA-ZWL" then I don't give a rip.

I think that's part of the point. Collect what you like. Just because one of us says a card isn't going to be valuable or collectible doesn't mean no one should collect it.

RPAs are going to remain the most desirable because it's a rookie, auto, and jersey all rolled into one. Given current pricing, game-used Flawless RPAs have high-upside to me because most of the time, they're the only game-used RPAs produced of a given player. NT has brand recognition but we've all seen those trends change before. Maybe it happens, maybe it doesn't. If not, I'm happy to pick up RPAs that I value more than NT at prices much cheaper than NT.

[BigSeph]

Originally Posted by Asian62150

What about Gala?

Gala the independent release? Yes that was the rarest for a couple of years.

Gala the insert in Chronicles? Not true rookie cards.

I think that's part of the point. Collect what you like. Just because one of us says a card isn't going to be valuable or collectible doesn't mean no one should collect it.

RPAs are going to remain the most desirable because it's a rookie, auto, and jersey all rolled into one. Given current pricing, game-used Flawless RPAs have high-upside to me because most of the time, they're the only game-used RPAs produced of a given player. NT has brand recognition but we've all seen those trends change before. Maybe it happens, maybe it doesn't. If not, I'm happy to pick up RPAs that I value more than NT at prices much cheaper than NT.

That's basically my mindset. I see value in Flawless diamond true RCs.

Simple as that.

[Spacemanspif]

It's one thing to look for value. I do that all the time, and some win, some lose.

It's another thing to go post thousands of words trying to sell people on the idea that they should be worth more and claim that you're not pumping.

Price/value is dictated more by demand than supply. Sure, supply is important. But as has been pointed out multiple times, there's no reason for anyone (let alone "25 rich guys") to get in a bidding war over some thick base cards with fake diamonds glued to the front. I can probably peel the same thing off my daughter's my little pony. I have yet to see anyone, including yourself, claim that they want to own these cards for anything other than trying to hoard for future value. Could that change over time? I guess, but the odds of it happening, especially for some kind of significant return, are miniscule, and not worth the cash investment IMO.

It's incredible how unhinged you got over some dissenting opinions, and suggest you take a timeout. Or learn to have a discussion without acting like a crazy person and calling people names for not agreeing with you. Probably neither will happen so you'll just get added to the block list

[BigSeph]

Originally Posted by Spacemanspif

It's one thing to look for value. I do that all the time, and some win, some lose.

I don't bat 1.000 over here either.

It's another thing to go post thousands of words trying to sell people on the idea that they should be worth more and claim that you're not pumping.

Not pumping. Fact. I don't care if you or anyone else buys a Flawless /20 I'm sharing my opinion on "the next PMG" thread on a sports card forum. I'm not out making influencer TikToks or 30 minute Youtube videos. The longer undervalued things stay cheap the more I can accumulate.

BUT.

I am perfectly fine sharing my opinions, and I accept that a large number of people will "go with the flow" or follow the other sheep and that's not just sports cards. That's stocks, commodities, comic books, all sorts of stuff. If I were truly pumping I wouldn't know how people work when it comes to these things. I would think that I could make a difference by posting an occasional opinion on a sports card forum. But I'm nowhere near that stupid. The 2nd prize for 2nd most stupid is people who think that some random guy hyping a player on a sports card forum actually has any meaningful impact. So the "shutup pumper" angle is almost as dumb as thinking you can pump by posting on Blowout.

Do I argue a lot when I feel like people should consider a point? Sure. And I like when people argue back, it helps me refine my position on various things. Sometimes I'm wrong and it helps to have someone argue back even if they are just playing devil's advocate. I have had people PM me and thank me for shining a light on this or that, they bought and profited.

Have you?

Price/value is dictated more by demand than supply. Sure, supply is important. But as has been pointed out multiple times, there's no reason for anyone (let alone "25 rich guys") to get in a bidding war over some thick base cards with fake diamonds glued to the front.

As a general rule, supply and demand are equal forces on price. People can all chase Prizm silvers because that's the cool thing to do (an example of demand forces outweighing supply forces, because they are plentiful) but I am free to watch it happen and think they are stupid, and smile as I scroll through ebay listings a year later at silver prizms selling for a fraction of what people were paying for guys like Giannis or Luka when the hype was high. Because then the supply forces overwhelm the shrinking demand, and prices fall quickly.

I can probably peel the same thing off my daughter's my little pony.

Your daughter has a toy pony with diamonds on it? Go ahead big baller.

I have yet to see anyone, including yourself, claim that they want to own these cards for anything other than trying to hoard for future value.

I've said it repeatedly, maybe stop and listen, let it sink in -

They are the rarest true rookie cards of many players in multiple sports.

THAT is valuable to me. Not to you? I don't care.

Could that change over time? I guess, but the odds of it happening, especially for some kind of significant return, are miniscule, and not worth the cash investment IMO.

Then don't buy them. You are obviously so brilliant that you think you could pinch diamonds off a toy animal. Perhaps invest in little toy ponies instead of rare true rookie cards.

It's incredible how unhinged you got over some dissenting opinions, and suggest you take a timeout. Or learn to have a discussion without acting like a crazy person and calling people names for not agreeing with you. Probably neither will happen so you'll just get added to the block list

It's incredible how resistant the angry mob is to anything that goes against the prevailing narrative.

Feel free to block me, fools despise wisdom and instruction I heard.

[drobfan8]

I actually can't believe how butthurt people are getting over BigSeph.

It's not like it's a terrible take. I don't really get in to Rookies, so not my thing. But I do think the Flawless Diamonds are largely undervalued. Yes I have a few bass.

The funny thing is, PMGs aren't even chased for the Rookies.

Is there a key set out there that is both chasable and scarce enough for every player collector out there to want one?

2012 Prizm Golds are probably off the table. And you can spend your money better elsewhere unless you have deep wallets. I sold my Timmy Duncan wayyy too cheap. Honestly, they weren't that special and were a rip off of Topps Chrome.

At least Flawless and Galactics aren't a rip off from other companies designs.

[The_Reverend]

This is the closest to PMG AND their condition sensitivity is beyond question.

[mc1]

Originally Posted by drobfan8

At least Flawless and Galactics aren't a rip off from other companies designs.

Ever heard of Pacific Revolution? That was around in the 90s and early 2000s. Galactics are not that original. Neither is Flawlesss.

[2010GBPackers]

Originally Posted by tjforce

Here's the thing...

Why do people rip NT? Gambling addiction

Why do people rip Prizm? Gambling addiction

Why do people rip Flawless? Gambling addiction

Once we get back to reasonable pricing on wax, there are no actual collectors ripping product anymore, just degenerate gamblers. That's the truth. The rest of us buy up their scraps.

[tjforce]

Originally Posted by 2010GBPackers

Once we get back to reasonable pricing on wax, there are no actual collectors ripping product anymore, just degenerate gamblers. That's the truth. The rest of us buy up their scraps.

And are these gamblers keeping these big cards when they hit them? No. They're trying to get an ROI and claw their way back by selling.

So in other words, what are the chase cards that sell big in each of those brands:

Prizm: A Paolo Banchero Gold just sold for $36k
NT: Almost nothing other than RPAs move on the secondary market
Flawless: Didn't Goldin huck someone into paying over $1MM for a LeBron triple logoman?

[The_Reverend]

Originally Posted by 2010GBPackers

Once we get back to reasonable pricing on wax, there are no actual collectors ripping product anymore, just degenerate gamblers. That's the truth. The rest of us buy up their scraps.

Singles! Singles! Singles. I was able to buy 8 The Cup RPA of a player I believe in for $400 less than 1 Tin.