A Very Important Paypal Dispute Learning Experience - Page 8

ehp6737 · 01-13-2019, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgisback

I agree to disagree. In retail if you buy an item that is fake regardless of what it is covered in, it is still fake no matter what you do to it and the seller is responsible for that. I don't know any scenario where you are on the hook for items that aren't authenticate that were sold to you as authentic.

Why are you comparing retail to the world of sports cards and memorabilia? The key point you are missing is the 3rd party involvement, which in this instance is psa. They are veryfing the authenticity, not the seller. And by the buyer breaking that case the seller now has no recourse to recoup loses from the 3rd party (assuming the flip is even legit).

How many things, if any, in a retail setting can you buy that have 3rd party authentication? If there are any, I can assure you they wont accept a return if you tampered with the item.

Any reasonable person would not have cracked that case before knowing 100% there was no issue with the authenticity. Its that simple.
Buy cracking that case the buyer now assumes liability. Paypal should have never refunded anything

ehp6737 · 01-13-2019, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dontom

1. That's one thing that we need to determine for sure. Some say it's the same card others say it's different. The layout, centering etc.. are identical. Some of the finer details like the arrow and boarder where the colors meet appear to look different. At first I thought these were different cards because of that but those fine details may just look off because of the quality of the 2nd picture. If kidkards can post a clearer picture of the returned card we should be able to clearly see if it's the same or a different card. Once we figure that out for sure we will then know if the buyer was scamming or if he was just trying to return a reprinted card.

2. Yes you are correct he could of easily seen that the card was a reprint while still in the psa holder. My point is that he wasn't even checking to see if it was a reprint. Since it was graded he was prob already 100% sure it was real and not even focusing on that aspect. At some point after he cracked it he somehow realized it was a reprint and was like ooops.

I say this because this happened to me. I bought BGS 9 Jordan Interlake card. When I bought it and when it arrived I wasn't even concerned or tried to determine if it was real or not. I my mind it was real because it was graded. If fact the main reason I bought graded rather than loose is to make sure I didn't get a fake. I now know better than to trust any of the grading companies blindly after seeing how many fake and altered cards get by as well as people making fake labels and holders which it seems is what happened with this Jordan rookie. Luckily for me I had no intention of cracking the card and was able to get all my money reimbursed from BGS.

Good points. As you mentioned, if the OP can produce some better scans that should answer most of these questions. I really see things though that I cant imagine have to do with the resolution, but who knows.

pgisback · 01-13-2019, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ehp6737

Why are you comparing retail to the world of sports cards and memorabilia? The key point you are missing is the 3rd party involvement, which in this instance is psa. They are veryfing the authenticity, not the seller. And by the buyer breaking that case the seller now has no recourse to recoup loses from the 3rd party (assuming the flip is even legit).

How many things, if any, in a retail setting can you buy that have 3rd party authentication? If there are any, I can assure you they wont accept a return if you tampered with the item.

Any reasonable person would not have cracked that case before knowing 100% there was no issue with the authenticity. Its that simple.
Buy cracking that case the buyer now assumes liability. Paypal should have never refunded anything

I simply disagree with your theory on what a reasonable person should know before cracking a case and quite frankly I don't think it matters in this case. If it is indeed considered fake, the buyer spent $2k on a fake card. Why he's responsible for that simply because he took it out of a grading case is beyond me. He didn't buy the PSA holder, he bought the card.

NoleinJax · 01-13-2019, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rman112

The point is that the responsibility for all that isn't yours anymore.

What happens if they sell a card of yours and then long after they pay you on the sale, the buyer files for a return or does a credit card charge back? Do they just eat the return and own the card once they receive it back?

Oldan Poar · 01-13-2019, 03:47 PM

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pgisback · 01-13-2019, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oldan Poar

I agree, it should not be eligible for a return (imo). If I bought a card and cracked it (fake or not), I would feel I was at the mercy of the seller. Yeah, some red flags too...maybe

There is fed and varying state laws on returning.

Imagine a scumbag buying two boxes of cards at two different stores, opening, weighing, taking one repacked box back. Should a store and would a store take back an open box...

Well if anything this case has proved, luckily, if you buy a fake card whether it's in a case or not, you're not at the mercy of the seller and you can get your money back.

KhalDrogo · 01-13-2019, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgisback

I simply disagree with your theory on what a reasonable person should know before cracking a case and quite frankly I don't think it matters in this case. If it is indeed considered fake, the buyer spent $2k on a fake card. Why he's responsible for that simply because he took it out of a grading case is beyond me. He didn't buy the PSA holder, he bought the card.

That's an interesting take. I assume you would be okay with all INAD returns on graded cards then.

pgisback · 01-13-2019, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

That's an interesting take. I assume you would be okay with all INAD returns on graded cards then.

If the cards weren't authentic, sure. Sucks as a seller, but you're responsible if you sell non authentic cards as authentic.

johnyensmith123 · 01-13-2019, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgisback

If the cards weren't authentic, sure. Sucks as a seller, but you're responsible if you sell non authentic cards as authentic.

Yeah, this. It sucks, but the seller should be responsible if he sells something fake even if the seller didn't know it was fake.

cardmole · 01-13-2019, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnyensmith123

Yeah, this. It sucks, but the seller should be responsible if he sells something fake even if the seller didn't know it was fake.

Yes, and nobody knows for sure if OP knew it was fake or not.
Can't see a reason he would of posted if he knew though

Oldan Poar · 01-13-2019, 04:54 PM

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KhalDrogo · 01-13-2019, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnyensmith123

Yeah, this. It sucks, but the seller should be responsible if he sells something fake even if the seller didn't know it was fake.

Of course the seller should be responsible. But now the seller has no option for recourse himself. The buyer took that away.

I know some people have suggested the flip is fake. But what if it were real? The seller could have been reimbursed by PSA for incorrectly grading a fake Jordan. Now he can’t.

A blanket policy of not being able to return altered items is better.

rats60 · 01-13-2019, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgisback

I simply disagree with your theory on what a reasonable person should know before cracking a case and quite frankly I don't think it matters in this case. If it is indeed considered fake, the buyer spent $2k on a fake card. Why he's responsible for that simply because he took it out of a grading case is beyond me. He didn't buy the PSA holder, he bought the card.

Because the card in the holder is worth 2k, even if it is fake. If PSA made a mistake, they will buy the card back. By cracking the card out, the buyer made the card worthless. He should be the one taking a 2k loss because it is his actions that have caused the card to lose value. The seller has done nothing wrong, but he is the one out 2k.

johnyensmith123 · 01-13-2019, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Of course the seller should be responsible. But now the seller has no option for recourse himself. The buyer took that away.

I know some people have suggested the flip is fake. But what if it were real? The seller could have been reimbursed by PSA for incorrectly grading a fake Jordan. Now he can’t.

A blanket policy of not being able to return altered items is better.

Or rather, by your logic, I think it's more reasonable to offer a partial refund in this case. If the buyer paid 2k for the card but cracked it out of the case and then returned it, and the seller could have been reimbursed $100 by PSA for incorrect grading, then the buyer could just be refunded $2000 - $100 = $1900.

A policy of always siding with the seller if the item is slightly damaged or altered in any way is not necessarily solving the problem. It would be best if paypal would actually decide case by case depending on the evidence and circumstances rather than blindly side with one side every time. In OP's example, it's clear that a partial refund is much more reasonable than just making the buyer lose $2k for receiving a fake $2 reprint.

pgisback · 01-13-2019, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

Because the card in the holder is worth 2k, even if it is fake. If PSA made a mistake, they will buy the card back. By cracking the card out, the buyer made the card worthless. He should be the one taking a 2k loss because it is his actions that have caused the card to lose value. The seller has done nothing wrong, but he is the one out 2k.

Probably the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard, lmao.

pgisback · 01-13-2019, 05:11 PM

The OP has enough information to provide to PSA that he had a fake graded card and lost out of $2k. That's who I would be more worried about than the buyer. Buyers aren't responsible for fake cards.

johnyensmith123 · 01-13-2019, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

Because the card in the holder is worth 2k, even if it is fake. If PSA made a mistake, they will buy the card back. By cracking the card out, the buyer made the card worthless. He should be the one taking a 2k loss because it is his actions that have caused the card to lose value. The seller has done nothing wrong, but he is the one out 2k.

But how does Paypal know for sure that the seller didn't know the card in the slab was indeed fake? What if the seller maliciously faked the PSA slab for a fake Jordan RC reprint and sold it for $2k as authentic? The seller clearly has done wrong. If the buyer was innocuously trying to submit for a regrade by cracking it out of the case, and then only realized it was fake upon close inspection out of the slab, then why should the buyer be out the entire $2k?

Also, you said "If PSA made a mistake, they will buy the card back". I highly doubt this is true. Suppose PSA grades a card worth 500k. If the card turns out to be fake, I doubt PSA will pay 500k to who submitted it. PSA would reimburse the cost of the grading (however much money it took to ask PSA to grade that card and ship it back). But not pay the "value" of the card. Why would they buy back a worthless fake card for 500k?

In other words, you're saying that PSA would have paid $2k for the fake Jordan RC in the PSA slab to the OP. In reality, PSA might still even claim that they believe it is authentic in their opinion, and that is why they graded it as authentic–if some other people disagree, that's not their problem. They never say that everyone will agree with their decision of authenticity–it's their opinion and that's the service you're buying. PSA could reimburse cost of grading/shipping maybe if they admit their mistake, but not the entire value of the card or a specific transaction amount.

pingbling23 · 01-13-2019, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pingbling23

Op, how long did you own the card. Who did you buy it from. Did you buy it graded or grade yourself.

recourse should come from where op got the card. if the op sent a fake in a fake psa slab, i appreciate the buyer removing it from the slab so the card isnt still in circulation in a fake slab.

johnyensmith123 · 01-13-2019, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pingbling23

recourse should come from where op got the card. if the op sent a fake in a fake psa slab, i appreciate the buyer removing it from the slab so the card isnt still in circulation in a fake slab.

It would definitely be interesting to know how OP obtained the card, i.e. raw vs graded, when, from whom, etc.

KhalDrogo · 01-13-2019, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgisback

Probably the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard, lmao.

If the PSA flip was real, then the card in the flip was worth $2000, even if fake. PSA guarantees authenticity. If not authentic, you send it to PSA, and they reimburse you due to their mistake.

The card out of the flip is worth $0.

KhalDrogo · 01-13-2019, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnyensmith123

But how does Paypal know for sure that the seller didn't know the card in the slab was indeed fake? What if the seller maliciously faked the PSA slab for a fake Jordan RC reprint and sold it for $2k as authentic? The seller clearly has done wrong. If the buyer was innocuously trying to submit for a regrade by cracking it out of the case, and then only realized it was fake upon close inspection out of the slab, then why should the buyer be out the entire $2k?

Also, you said "If PSA made a mistake, they will buy the card back". I highly doubt this is true. Suppose PSA grades a card worth 500k. If the card turns out to be fake, I doubt PSA will pay 500k to who submitted it. PSA would reimburse the cost of the grading (however much money it took to ask PSA to grade that card and ship it back). But not pay the "value" of the card. Why would they buy back a worthless fake card for 500k?

In other words, you're saying that PSA would have paid $2k for the fake Jordan RC in the PSA slab to the OP. In reality, PSA might still even claim that they believe it is authentic in their opinion, and that is why they graded it as authentic–if some other people disagree, that's not their problem. They never say that everyone will agree with their decision of authenticity–it's their opinion and that's the service you're buying. PSA could reimburse cost of grading/shipping maybe if they admit their mistake, but not the entire value of the card or a specific transaction amount.

You should read this:

https://www.psacard.com/about/financialguarantee

Quote:

If PSA, in fact, concludes that the card in question no longer merits the PSA grade assigned or fails PSA’s authenticity standards, PSA will either:

Buy the card from the submitter at the current market value if the card can no longer receive a numerical grade under PSA's standards or,

Refund the difference in value between the original PSA grade and the current PSA grade if the grade is lowered. In this case, the card will also be returned to the customer along with the refund for the difference in value.

Quote:

and the Guarantee does not apply to, and cannot be utilized by, the original submitter (or the original submitter’s agents, employees, affiliates or representatives) of the graded card.

So yes, if the seller was not the individual who graded it, and the current market value is $2000, the seller should be able to get $2000 from PSA as the card is now deemed to no longer be authentic.

johnyensmith123 · 01-13-2019, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

You should read this:

https://www.psacard.com/about/financialguarantee

So yes, if the seller was not the individual who graded it, and the current market value is $2000, the seller should be able to get $2000 from PSA as the card is now deemed to no longer be authentic.

Edit: I just read pgisback's post below and realized that PSA likely means they will buy the fake/reprint at the the market value of the fake. This completely makes sense to me. However, PSA buying back fakes/reprints at market value of authentic cards makes no sense to me. They have no reason to make that incredibly risky guarantee. They risk scammers taking advantage of this and making tons of money off of them, especially if there are more than one scammers involved. People will still submit cards to PSA even if PSA doesn't make that kind of financial guarantee. Now, I still believe PSA should make the financial guarantee of reimbursing grading/shipping costs for grading mistakes, but that's completely different.

I think you misunderstood what PSA meant by that. They said that "If PSA, in fact, concludes that the card in question no longer merits the PSA grade assigned or fails PSA’s authenticity standards", PSA would: "Buy the card from the submitter at the current market value if the card can no longer receive a numerical grade under PSA's standards". In OP's case, that likely means that they would buy the fake card at the current market value of the fake card, since the fake card can no longer receive a numerical grade–at least that's how I understood it. They almost certainly are not guaranteeing to pay 2k for the fake Jordan RC. They have no good reason to make this guarantee. It's common sense.

pgisback · 01-13-2019, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

You should read this:

https://www.psacard.com/about/financialguarantee

So yes, if the seller was not the individual who graded it, and the current market value is $2000, the seller should be able to get $2000 from PSA as the card is now deemed to no longer be authentic.

The current market value for a fake Michael Jordan rookie is $0. PSA is not going to give someone who submits a fake card to them, $2000 because it fooled them.

KhalDrogo · 01-13-2019, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgisback

The current market value for a fake Michael Jordan rookie is $0.

You have selective reading skills.

rawkstar2k · 01-13-2019, 06:16 PM

I'm surprised people are making excuses for the buyer in this situation. The buyer is the one who busted out the card and took a chance. When you buy a graded card, you are buying mostly the grade (and for some like myself, the peace of mind that it is authentic), hence the drastic price differences for a PSA 8 to a PSA 9. If the buyer thought it was fake, he should have returned it as he received it, ESPECIALLY with this card as it is one of the most faked cards of all time. It sucks that the buyer received a fake card, but he took the chance and it should be all on him to eat the loss ONLY because he took any recourse away the seller had by busting it out of the case. PSA would have bought back the card if they determined it was in fact fake, but now the seller is out $2k. There is no way that PSA is going to buy the card back now.

01-13-2019, 03:47 PM	#180
Oldan Poar Member Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 450	..... Last edited by Oldan Poar; 02-08-2019 at 12:08 PM.

01-13-2019, 04:54 PM	#186
Oldan Poar Member Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 450	..... Last edited by Oldan Poar; 02-08-2019 at 12:08 PM.

01-13-2019, 05:11 PM	#191
pgisback Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Seattle Posts: 21,023	The OP has enough information to provide to PSA that he had a fake graded card and lost out of $2k. That's who I would be more worried about than the buyer. Buyers aren't responsible for fake cards.

01-13-2019, 06:16 PM	#200
rawkstar2k Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: California Posts: 987	I'm surprised people are making excuses for the buyer in this situation. The buyer is the one who busted out the card and took a chance. When you buy a graded card, you are buying mostly the grade (and for some like myself, the peace of mind that it is authentic), hence the drastic price differences for a PSA 8 to a PSA 9. If the buyer thought it was fake, he should have returned it as he received it, ESPECIALLY with this card as it is one of the most faked cards of all time. It sucks that the buyer received a fake card, but he took the chance and it should be all on him to eat the loss ONLY because he took any recourse away the seller had by busting it out of the case. PSA would have bought back the card if they determined it was in fact fake, but now the seller is out $2k. There is no way that PSA is going to buy the card back now.