Right now, where do you rank Stephen Curry amongst all-time great PGs?

[broncomanning18]

Originally Posted by jgrann13

people need to stop with the "bad on defense" arguments towards Curry. NOBODY plays face up defense anymore. With all the switches and screens, there is no such thing as great on ball defenders from the guard spot. Steph is a very underrated rebounder as well.

He is horrible at defense, the whole strategy of the Rockets was to go right at him and it had them a 3-2 lead before cp3 got hurt. Its not his fault really to some degree, he is slight of build and doesnt have that base strength on defense. But their are plenty of small defenders that are WAYYYYYYYY better defenders than him like a Jrue Holiday. Defense is half the game, not really sure why that gets glossed over when talking about all time greats.

[regularp]

Originally Posted by broncomanning18

He is horrible at defense, the whole strategy of the Rockets was to go right at him and it had them a 3-2 lead before cp3 got hurt. Its not his fault really to some degree, he is slight of build and doesnt have that base strength on defense. But their are plenty of small defenders that are WAYYYYYYYY better defenders than him like a Jrue Holiday. Defense is half the game, not really sure why that gets glossed over when talking about all time greats.

Jrue Holiday is quite a bit bigger than Curry and has longer arms.

Curry's a good defender. He positions himself well and has quick hands. He regularly makes plays throughout each game on the defensive end; he ripped Harden multiple times in the WCF.

Just because he isn't Gary Payton, doesn't mean he's trash defensively.

[rookies]

Originally Posted by regularp

Jrue Holiday is quite a bit bigger than Curry and has longer arms.

Curry's a good defender. He positions himself well and has quick hands. He regularly makes plays throughout each game on the defensive end; he ripped Harden multiple times in the WCF.

Just because he isn't Gary Payton, doesn't mean he's trash defensively.

Exactly Stpeh is a good defender. He is almost always in right spots. I remember when people freaked out at me saying KD was a better defender than Giannis lol.

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by regularp

Curry's a good defender. He positions himself well and has quick hands. He regularly makes plays throughout each game on the defensive end; he ripped Harden multiple times in the WCF.

This. Again?

Are Lillard, Rubio, Reddick, and Dragic more physically gifted than Steph?

Actual statistical 'evidence' cites that he is one of the worst defensive starting point guards in the league (amongst the very bottom). Are you going to refute numbers? Or just state that you think he is based off various sporadic hustle plays you personally see during the course of a game?

Because you'd be very wrong.

https://stats.nba.com/players/defens...=DEF_WS&dir=-1

In fact, he makes guys like Harden and Westbrook look like all defensive team monsters in comparison. Good laugh, though.

[regularp]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

This. Again?

Are Lillard, Rubio, Reddick, and Dragic more physically gifted than Steph?

Actual statistical 'evidence' cites that he is one of the worst defensive starting point guards in the league (amongst the very bottom). Are you going to refute numbers? Or just state that you think he is based off various sporadic hustle plays you personally see during the course of a game?

Because you'd be very wrong.

https://stats.nba.com/players/defens...=DEF_WS&dir=-1

In fact, he makes guys like Harden and Westbrook look like all defensive team monsters in comparison. Good laugh, though.

The link you just provided has his playoff defensive win shares rated higher than Kevin Durant and Al Horford in fewer games. Good try though.

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by regularp

The link you just provided has his playoff defensive win shares rated higher than Kevin Durant and Al Horford in fewer games. Good try though.

You're using the playoff filter. Try the regular season. He's 36th amongst point guards alone.

[jcardstore]

But I saw him get a few steals and I watched some YouTube highlights so the actual stats don’t matter!!!!!!!!

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

But I saw him get a few steals and I watched some YouTube highlights so the actual stats don’t matter!!!!!!!!

Had like 3 steals the other night. Clearly in the upper eschelon of defensive gurus.

[theLUCKYshow]

Originally Posted by broncomanning18

He is horrible at defense, the whole strategy of the Rockets was to go right at him and it had them a 3-2 lead before cp3 got hurt. Its not his fault really to some degree, he is slight of build and doesnt have that base strength on defense. But their are plenty of small defenders that are WAYYYYYYYY better defenders than him like a Jrue Holiday. Defense is half the game, not really sure why that gets glossed over when talking about all time greats.

We just dont think of defense when we think of PGs. I asked way back when in this thread who the best two-way PG in the NBA right now is, and it's a hard question to answer. It could be Jrue Holiday. Does that make him the best PG in the league? No, of course not, because the PGs main job is to run the team on offense. In my view, PG rankings should be based 80% on offense, 20% on defense.

Now we typically use the term two-way player to describe SGs and SFs like Klay or Kawhi, and it's because it's more important for these positions to be balanced offensively and defensively than a PG. They have more defensive responsibilities, and have to guard bigger and stronger guys. Because of that, SG and SF rankings should be based 60% on offense, 40% on defense.

We dont use two-way player to describe PFs and Cs but maybe we should. AD is maybe the best two-way player in the league if you think about it. I guess the PF position has changed where Stretch 4s are typically weak defenders, and Cs are being run off the floor. Still, defense will always be one of the biggest components of ranking big men when you look to the past (ask Rodman, Ben Wallace, Dikembe). Because of that Id say PFs and Cs rankings should be based 50/50 offense/defense.

Geez I went off track a bit but my main point is no one looks at a PGs role as 50% offense and 50% defense, so we shouldn't rank them that way either.

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[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by theLUCKYshow

We just dont think of defense when we think of PGs. I asked way back when in this thread who the best two-way PG in the NBA right now is, and it's a hard question to answer. It could be Jrue Holiday. Does that make him the best PG in the league? No, of course not, because the PGs main job is to run the team on offense. In my view, PG rankings should be based 80% on offense, 20% on defense.

Now we typically use the term two-way player to describe SGs and SFs like Klay or Kawhi, and it's because it's more important for these positions to be balanced offensively and defensively than a PG. They have more defensive responsibilities, and have to guard bigger and stronger guys. Because of that, SG and SF rankings should be based 60% on offense, 40% on defense.

We dont use two-way player to describe PFs and Cs but maybe we should. AD is maybe the best two-way player in the league if you think about it. I guess the PF position has changed where Stretch 4s are typically weak defenders, and Cs are being run off the floor. Still, defense will always be one of the biggest components of ranking big men when you look to the past (ask Rodman, Ben Wallace, Dikembe). Because of that Id say PFs and Cs rankings should be based 50/50 offense/defense.

Geez I went off track a bit but my main point is no one looks at a PGs role as 50% offense and 50% defense, so we shouldn't rank them that way either.

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I think all-around game should be the strongest consideration if you're going to start ranking players all-time, regardless of position. Because you're grouping together great players, all of which were exceptional for their time, but you have to have variables that separate them.

Steph will undoubtedly go down as the best shooting point guard of all time. But other than that, what has he excelled at? He's been a defensive liability and target most of his career, above average distributor (certainly not top tier), and an average rebounder.

You even look at point guards like Chris Paul, who have been a consistent 2-way threat their entire career...and I find it hard to place a guy like Steph above him. CP3 is the quintessential point guard, and despite the fact he never had rings or was placed in a prime opportunity to obtain one, his all around game is arguably the best of this generation at the position.

Magic was definitely a 2-way player, and though he wasn't the greatest jump shooter, he ended with a career average .520 from the field, which is exceptional. Not to mention his assists and rebounding were off the charts and virtually unheard of for the time.

[theLUCKYshow]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

I think all-around game should be the strongest consideration if you're going to start ranking players all-time, regardless of position. Because you're grouping together great players, all of which were exceptional for their time, but you have to have variables that separate them.

Steph will undoubtedly go down as the best shooting point guard of all time. But other than that, what has he excelled at? He's been a defensive liability and target most of his career, above average distributor (certainly not top tier), and an average rebounder.

You even look at point guards like Chris Paul, who have been a consistent 2-way threat their entire career...and I find it hard to place a guy like Steph above him. CP3 is the quintessential point guard, and despite the fact he never had rings or was placed in a prime opportunity to obtain one, his all around game is arguably the best of this generation at the position.

Magic was definitely a 2-way player, and though he wasn't the greatest jump shooter, he ended with a career average .520 from the field, which is exceptional. Not to mention his assists and rebounding were off the charts and virtually unheard of for the time.

Ok let's forget about his nba legacy for a sec and look at his legacy in this hobby. He is unanimously (havent heard anyone argue against) considered the greatest shooter ever, and we gloss over that like it's nothing. That's a big deal and will make him collectible forever. Add in the fact he has MVPs and championships, the young kids idolize him (you see kids wearing curry jerseys from coast to coast), and he has at least 5-6 more years to add to his resume, I can see Steph being one of the most collectible basketball players ever in the decades to come.

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[slum22]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

You're using the playoff filter. Try the regular season. He's 36th amongst point guards alone.

Oh man, this again. For the regular season, he is not 36th amongst point guards. Look at the list again, he is 36th out of 266 qualifying Guards. That means he is not below average. That means he is nearly 100 spots ahead of the median (average) guard in the league. He is not a bad defender and he does give good effort especially when it counts. By using the defensive metric you chose to link he is also 4th amongst all positions for Defensive WS for this season's playoffs. But I suppose we should ignore that stat since it doesn't support your argument. Go ahead and cite statistics but if you do just make sure to put them into the correct context.

Curry gets targeted on defense because he is the weakest defender on a very good defensive team. How did that strategy work out for Houston? They scored 98 and 95 points in their game 4 and game 5 wins. The Warriors losses were not because they (or Curry) could not play defense. It was because Houston held them way below their normal offensive output. And CP3 is a good player, but Curry and the Warriors have beat him like a drum the last four years. That is a fact. Look it up. It is under a simple statistic W and L.

Oh yeah, and for all the folks saying the Rockets would have won if CP3 didn't get injured. Well, using the same "what if" game, the Warriors would have completed the Gentleman's sweep on Houston if Igoudala doesn't get hurt at the end of game 3. When both teams had their best guys going in the first three games, the Warriors outscored the Rockets by an aggregate of 32 points, or just over 10 points a game.

[theLUCKYshow]

Originally Posted by slum22

Oh man, this again. For the regular season, he is not 36th amongst point guards. Look at the list again, he is 36th out of 266 qualifying Guards. That means he is not below average. That means he is nearly 100 spots ahead of the median (average) guard in the league. He is not a bad defender and he does give good effort especially when it counts. By using the defensive metric you chose to link he is also 4th amongst all positions for Defensive WS for this season's playoffs. But I suppose we should ignore that stat since it doesn't support your argument. Go ahead and cite statistics but if you do just make sure to put them into the correct context.

Curry gets targeted on defense because he is the weakest defender on a very good defensive team. How did that strategy work out for Houston? They scored 98 and 95 points in their game 4 and game 5 wins. The Warriors losses were not because they (or Curry) could not play defense. It was because Houston held them way below their normal offensive output. And CP3 is a good player, but Curry and the Warriors have beat him like a drum the last four years. That is a fact. Look it up. It is under a simple statistic W and L.

Oh yeah, and for all the folks saying the Rockets would have won if CP3 didn't get injured. Well, using the same "what if" game, the Warriors would have completed the Gentleman's sweep on Houston if Igoudala doesn't get hurt at the end of game 3. When both teams had their best guys going in the first three games, the Warriors outscored the Rockets by an aggregate of 32 points, or just over 10 points a game.

good stuff

[21Pittsburgh58]

Originally Posted by theLUCKYshow

Ok let's forget about his nba legacy for a sec and look at his legacy in this hobby. He is unanimously (havent heard anyone argue against) considered the greatest shooter ever, and we gloss over that like it's nothing. That's a big deal and will make him collectible forever. Add in the fact he has MVPs and championships, the young kids idolize him (you see kids wearing curry jerseys from coast to coast), and he has at least 5-6 more years to add to his resume, I can see Steph being one of the most collectible basketball players ever in the decades to come.

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Unanimously? Not for everyone because I’ll take Bird or Nash as my shooter. You can have Steph - ain’t nothing wrong with that.

[broncomanning18]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

This. Again?

Are Lillard, Rubio, Reddick, and Dragic more physically gifted than Steph?

Actual statistical 'evidence' cites that he is one of the worst defensive starting point guards in the league (amongst the very bottom). Are you going to refute numbers? Or just state that you think he is based off various sporadic hustle plays you personally see during the course of a game?

Because you'd be very wrong.

https://stats.nba.com/players/defens...=DEF_WS&dir=-1

In fact, he makes guys like Harden and Westbrook look like all defensive team monsters in comparison. Good laugh, though.

exactly, I am not sure what data they are looking at, if trying hard makes you good, then I am the best defender you have ever seen.

[broncomanning18]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

I think all-around game should be the strongest consideration if you're going to start ranking players all-time, regardless of position. Because you're grouping together great players, all of which were exceptional for their time, but you have to have variables that separate them.

Steph will undoubtedly go down as the best shooting point guard of all time. But other than that, what has he excelled at? He's been a defensive liability and target most of his career, above average distributor (certainly not top tier), and an average rebounder.

You even look at point guards like Chris Paul, who have been a consistent 2-way threat their entire career...and I find it hard to place a guy like Steph above him. CP3 is the quintessential point guard, and despite the fact he never had rings or was placed in a prime opportunity to obtain one, his all around game is arguably the best of this generation at the position.

Magic was definitely a 2-way player, and though he wasn't the greatest jump shooter, he ended with a career average .520 from the field, which is exceptional. Not to mention his assists and rebounding were off the charts and virtually unheard of for the time.

Gold star for you sir, I actually think Chris Paul has been better than Curry and I would rank him as such. He is one of my favorite players to have ever watched, and is an amazing player.

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by broncomanning18

Gold star for you sir, I actually think Chris Paul has been better than Curry and I would rank him as such. He is one of my favorite players to have ever watched, and is an amazing player.

He almost single handedly lead them past the Warriors this year when he finally had the pieces around him (and at the tail end of his career) before succumbing to injury. I mean...does any sane person actually think he could not have won all the rings Curry did if the situations were interchanged? He is, imo the best 'true' pg of the last 10 years. Court vision, all around game, and consistency says so. That is, unless you discount Lebron as being a point guard.

[broncomanning18]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

He almost single handedly lead them past the Warriors this year when he finally had the pieces around him (and at the tail end of his career) before succumbing to injury. I mean...does any sane person actually think he could not have won all the rings Curry did if the situations were interchanged? He is, imo the best 'true' pg of the last 10 years. Court vision, all around game, and consistency says so. That is, unless you discount Lebron as being a point guard.

Exactly, its so good to hear from another intelligent person, I thought I was taking crazy pills their for a second.

[theLUCKYshow]

Almost single handedly? Lololololololololol...

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[theLUCKYshow]

Originally Posted by broncomanning18

Exactly, its so good to hear from another intelligent person, I thought I was taking crazy pills their for a second.

I'm glad you two found each other. Blowout soulmates!

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[broncomanning18]

Originally Posted by theLUCKYshow

I'm glad you two found each other. Blowout soulmates!

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I think its probably just that we know a lot about good basketball.

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by theLUCKYshow

Almost single handedly? Lololololololololol...

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Harden shot .415 from the field and .244 from 3 for the entire series. Don't get prolific confused with efficient. This was the league MVP.

CP3 was the only reason they were in that series. He is the floor general and glue to that offense. Harden's ineptitude was further magnified once Paul went down. They had no chance.

Ironically, The Beard is exactly what Durant was on OKC before he jumped to greener, easier pastures. A machine stat stuffer with zero ability to lead a team deep in the playoffs.

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by broncomanning18

I think its probably just that we know a lot about good basketball.

Rose colored shades must be selling like hotcakes in the bay.

[BlueXtreme]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

Harden shot .415 from the field and .244 from 3 for the entire series. Don't get prolific confused with efficient. This was the league MVP.

CP3 was the only reason they were in that series. He is the floor general and glue to that offense. Harden's ineptitude was further magnified once Paul went down. They had no chance.

Ironically, The Beard is exactly what Durant was on OKC before he jumped to greener, easier pastures. A machine stat stuffer with zero ability to lead a team deep in the playoffs.

This the same Durant that’s the best player in the league? Better than LeBron? New king. Etc?

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by BlueXtreme

This the same Durant that’s the best player in the league? Better than LeBron? New king. Etc?

GOAT, obviously. Well, that's only if you're insane and don't already consider Curry the GOAT.