Westbrook in straight beast mode again...

[EMD34]

Originally Posted by tjforce

This game has proven two things to me...


The most valuable player to his team is Westbrook.... Harden will probably win MVP.

Houston is a playoff team without Harden, OKC is fighting it out for the bottom 5 without Westbrook

That's really not true, the Rockets lighting it up from 3 doesn't happen without Harden there and it absolutely doesn't happen on a regular basis, Lou had missed his last 12 3s before tonight, and Ariza has been garbage for the better part of the last 3 months (today's game was their best offensive output of the season). The Rockets win 30 games with no Harden.

Originally Posted by tjforce

That's how I see it, but unfortunately voting usually goes along the line of 'best player on the best team'.

Westbrook outplayed Harden by a half-mile today 39/11/13vs 22/5/12

No he didn't, half of his points were in garbage time he was stat-padding like crazy. Westbrook had a team worst -14 +/-

[Chris P]

Originally Posted by EMD34

That's really not true, the Rockets lighting it up from 3 doesn't happen without Harden there and it absolutely doesn't happen on a regular basis, Lou had missed his last 12 3s before tonight, and Ariza has been garbage for the better part of the last 3 months (today's game was their best offensive output of the season). The Rockets win 30 games with no Harden.



No he didn't, half of his points were in garbage time he was stat-padding like crazy. Westbrook had a team worst -14 +/-

I don't consider it stat padding when they got the lead down to what 12 with a little over 5 minutes left in the game? If the OKC played any defense at all, they could've gotten it closer..plus it's not like scrubs were in in the 4th.

[Chris P]

I preface this to say I know how hot Houston was shooting and it's very very doubtful OKC makes the full comeback but the Kings...the KINGS..erased a 18 point deficit against the Clippers in 5 minutes left in the 4th today...OKC needed this game not so much for the Russ MVP talk but for SEEDING...they cut the lead to 13 with 5:22 left..they were very much trying to win the game at that point..Houston's offense was just ON FIRE

[tjforce]

Originally Posted by Chris P

I don't consider it stat padding when they got the lead down to what 12 with a little over 5 minutes left in the game? If the OKC played any defense at all, they could've gotten it closer..plus it's not like scrubs were in in the 4th.

Got it down to 9 at one point.

Bigger comebacks have happened.

The point is, Harden didn't need to have a huge game for Houston to score 130+.

Westbrook had to have a monster game for them to even bring it within single digits in the fourth.

I get the Harden for MVP idea, but if one really thinks that the rest of the Rockets aren't a better supporting cast, and that Westbrook didn't outplay Harden today, then there's a set a homer-vision goggles on your face than Lebron wore the first quarter last night.

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by Chris P

I preface this to say I know how hot Houston was shooting and it's very very doubtful OKC makes the full comeback but the Kings...the KINGS..erased a 18 point deficit against the Clippers in 5 minutes left in the 4th today...OKC needed this game not so much for the Russ MVP talk but for SEEDING...they cut the lead to 13 with 5:22 left..they were very much trying to win the game at that point..Houston's offense was just ON FIRE

For the people that continue to assert the notion that WB and Harden's surrounding casts are comparable....


Exactly how many offensive team records (outside of Westbrook) has the OKC squad accumulated this year?

I'll wait.

[andy88c]

The Rockets are a team completely built around Harden. That team doesn't work without Harden because the wide open 3s are predicated on Harden's ability to penetrate to the hoop.

For example, the Rockets wouldn't be as good a team with Westbrook instead of Harden. I don't think Westbrook is capable of understanding how to (or wanting to) execute the ultra-efficient game (all 3s and layups) that Harden does.

Also, want to talk stat padding? Here's the stat for contested rebound %. Guess who leads the league in lowest in that stat? Yep. Harden is up there, too, but note how they both average 1.1 contested defensive rebounds a game. The Thunder simply have their other guys start running the floor and just let Westbrook grab easy rebounds.

NBA.com/Stats

Harden has a much better offensive team around him, but Westbrook has a LOT of talent around him. Kanter is an elite offensive big (he just can't play D at all). Taj is underrated. Oladipo isn't a slouch at all. Steven Adams does all of the little things and is one of the most underrated centers in the league...he's honestly an elite center. The Rockets are flashy because of all of their guys jack up 3s, but the supporting cast isn't really considerably better..

[tke1600]

Originally Posted by andy88c

The Rockets are a team completely built around Harden. That team doesn't work without Harden because the wide open 3s are predicated on Harden's ability to penetrate to the hoop.

For example, the Rockets wouldn't be as good a team with Westbrook instead of Harden. I don't think Westbrook is capable of understanding how to (or wanting to) execute the ultra-efficient game (all 3s and layups) that Harden does.

Also, want to talk stat padding? Here's the stat for contested rebound %. Guess who leads the league in lowest in that stat? Yep. Harden is up there, too, but note how they both average 1.1 contested defensive rebounds a game. The Thunder simply have their other guys start running the floor and just let Westbrook grab easy rebounds.

NBA.com/Stats

Harden has a much better offensive team around him, but Westbrook has a LOT of talent around him. Kanter is an elite offensive big (he just can't play D at all). Taj is underrated. Oladipo isn't a slouch at all. Steven Adams does all of the little things and is one of the most underrated centers in the league...he's honestly an elite center. The Rockets are flashy because of all of their guys jack up 3s, but the supporting cast isn't really considerably better..

I don't think the thunder have an offensive player that can hit anything past 15 ft, including Westbrook. They have a couple of bigs who can make easy paint shots and oladipo who is streaky and hurt a lot. No one else on the team should even be on an NBA roster.

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by tke1600

I don't think the thunder have an offensive player that can hit anything past 15 ft, including Westbrook. They have a couple of bigs who can make easy paint shots and oladipo who is streaky and hurt a lot. No one else on the team should even be on an NBA roster.

Exactly. In today's game, unless you can spread the floor, your chances of winning go way down.

Roberson is a 3-only guy who has probably the worst stroke in the league. Kanter, Taj, and Adams are bangers who are limited outside of 7 feet.

Abrenas and McNuggets are both streaky bench players.

Jury is still out on Oladipo. He is talented, but has not exhibited the consistency needed to place him at the next level.

It's a huge reason why Westbrook is forced into very compromising shot selections. He simply doesn't have the luxury of having
defenses respect the perimeter and be able to fall back into interior zones. Whereas Harden has a plethora of options to kick out to on his patented hesitation dribble drive.

The rosters really are nowhere near the same.

Gordon, Ryno, Lou Will, and Ariza are all proven stretch players. Have been their entire careers. D'Antoni is an offensive mastermind and knew exactly what he was getting into when he inherited these pieces.

[Chris P]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

Exactly. In today's game, unless you can spread the floor, your chances of winning go way down.

Roberson is a 3-only guy who has probably the worst stroke in the league. Kanter, Taj, and Adams are bangers who are limited outside of 7 feet.

Abrenas and McNuggets are both streaky bench players.

Jury is still out on Oladipo. He is talented, but has not exhibited the consistency needed to place him at the next level.

It's a huge reason why Westbrook is forced into very compromising shot selections. He simply doesn't have the luxury of having
defenses respect the perimeter and be able to fall back into interior zones. Whereas Harden has a plethora of options to kick out to on his patented hesitation dribble drive.

The rosters really are nowhere near the same.

Gordon, Ryno, Lou Will, and Ariza are all proven stretch players. Have been their entire careers.

Really wish people would address your logical posts instead of regurgitating the same garbage arguments against Russ

[ninjacookies]

Originally Posted by Chris P

Really wish people would address your logical posts instead of regurgitating the same garbage arguments against Russ

I think they intentionally don't want to hear it. It's tough to change someones opinion after they've taken a firm stance on a player. Especially if it's a grudge against their character or playing style.

Emotional bias can go a long way.

[Chris P]

Originally Posted by ninjacookies

I think they intentionally don't want to hear it. It's tough to change someones opinion after they've taken a firm stance on a player. Especially if it's a grudge against their character or playing style.

Oh yeah...I know it..just a pipe dream lol

[andy88c]

Originally Posted by tke1600

I don't think the thunder have an offensive player that can hit anything past 15 ft, including Westbrook. They have a couple of bigs who can make easy paint shots and oladipo who is streaky and hurt a lot. No one else on the team should even be on an NBA roster.

Regurgitating the same anti-Russ garbage? Just look at key analytic stats and that's that. I don't think there's any reason to continue looking at him as some sort of triple double God when it's really not that impressive. It's just a product of the system. Kawhi Leonard is probably a better player than both Harden and Westbrook, by the way. He has Westbrook's freakish athleticism, except he learned how to shoot since he's been in the league, too, whereas Westbrook is still a below average jump shooter. And Kawhi is the best perimeter defender in the league.

I actually like Westbrook, I just don't understand the media and hobby hype over what he's done this yera. To me, it just shows a very cursory understanding of the game.
I will say
The fact remains that the Westbrook fanboys are the first ones to get defensive about any criticism about their god and refuse to look at numbers that paint a greater picture. Ryno, Ariza, Lou Williams, etc...are all very flawed players, but great supporting players. Russell HAS THAT in OKC, just different types of players because the system is different.

Not even close to true at all; that's just the convenient perception. It's how the team is built. McDermott and Abrines are ELITE three-point shooters, but have noticeable flaws in other areas of the game that prevents them from playing all the time. McDermott can shoot the trey just as well as Anderson. Look up their respective 3 pt %s (hint: guess whose career rate is higher?). Ryan Anderson is also a tremendous liability on defense and athletically, so it cuts both ways. The Rockets are just willing to live with it, because that's the D'Antoni system. Whereas the Thunder are built a lot like the Allen Iverson Sixers and honestly, Westbrook is a heck of a lot like Iverson. Athletic anomaly (albeit in a very different way), great counting stats, but horribly inefficient.

In any case, Andre Roberson wouldn't sniff the court in Houston because he can't shoot at all. In fact, Westbrook really shouldn't bother passing it to him at all. But Roberson is a key cog in the rotation because he's a top notch perimeter defender and having that ace is necessary to allow Westbrook to not have to guard the best defender on the other team (and consequently focus more of his efforts on offense). It's just how the teams are built.

JVG made a comment during today's game that the Rockets pass up on good shots for "better" shots when Nene had a wide open layup and kicked it outside to Ariza for a wide open corner 3. That's what the Rockets do and the Thunder don't do. There's not much extra passing in OKC.

[jstasyk1121]

well case closed...in two posts you have basically said every guy on the Thunder is ELITE....so i guess the thunder would be a 60-win team but RW is holding all that eliteness back!!!

Taj has been on the team for like 10 games...

Dipo has been in and out of lineup all year so has never settled in and isnt all that good at anything...(he is actually there best 3pt shooter at 48th in the league)

Kanter is elite offensively?? he is solid as a down low instant offense type off the bench...which is what they use him as...if he was so elite offensively he would be on the court more...but he sucks at everything else so he plays 20mpg

McDermott and Abrines are elite shooters now too....even if thats true...neither has been either on the team or in the rotation playing important roles for even majority of the season...(just looked...they are just barely inside top 70 this year for 3p%...so if you consider like 80 guys elite shooters then they sure are!!)

Roberson is pretty much a lock for the worst starting player in the league...period...

the team sucks....there is RW and then a few serviceable guys on the roster at best...but they are far from elite at anything...Adams is ok...Kanter is good on offense for like 5mins at a time...

i cant get on the Adams is elite big either.....he is 17th among C in pts...14th in rebounds....22nd in blocks...he isnt horrible...but if he is an "elite" center then again you must be counting atleast 10+ guys as elite centers....which i dont...

[Chris P]

Originally Posted by andy88c

McDermott and Abrines are ELITE three-point shooters

LOL AT THIS...ELITE 3 POINT SHOOTERS, I've now seriously heard it all when it comes to discrediting Russ, but Whatever you say man...keep discrediting Russ and his triple double average..it's overrated...it's a product of the system, it's not impressive..bla bla bla.."same anti Russ garbage" like I said we get it Russ should be blessed he has such a great supporting cast. I'm just glad the people who think it's "not impressive" what he's doing are in the very SMALL minority and real basketball people give him the respect he deserves

[Chris P]

Originally Posted by jstasyk1121

well case closed...in two posts you have basically said every guy on the Thunder is ELITE....so i guess the thunder would be a 60-win team but RW is holding all that eliteness back!!!

Taj has been on the team for like 10 games...

Dipo has been in and out of lineup all year so has never settled in and isnt all that good at anything...(he is actually there best 3pt shooter at 48th in the league)

Kanter is elite offensively?? he is solid as a down low instant offense type off the bench...which is what they use him as...if he was so elite offensively he would be on the court more...but he sucks at everything else so he plays 20mpg

McDermott and Abrines are elite shooters now too....even if thats true...neither has been either on the team or in the rotation playing important roles for even majority of the season...(just looked...they are just barely inside top 70 this year for 3p%...so if you consider like 80 guys elite shooters then they sure are!!)

Roberson is pretty much a lock for the worst starting player in the league...period...

the team sucks....there is RW and then a few serviceable guys on the roster at best...but they are far from elite at anything...Adams is ok...Kanter is good on offense for like 5mins at a time...

i cant get on the Adams is elite big either.....he is 17th among C in pts...14th in rebounds....22nd in blocks...he isnt horrible...but if he is an "elite" center then again you must be counting atleast 10+ guys as elite centers....which i dont...

Adams has actually regressed in my opinion..he's always been limited offensively but he was supposed to be our rim protector, defensive guy..he's not even that really anymore..maybe he's hurt. Again, some people's opinions come purely off two things A)box score watching and B)Looking at the Roster on Paper. They have zero idea how this Thunder team works, I saw Russ setting up guys left and right yesterday and for what..point blank misses...no one will ever convince me (or most of the unbiased basketball world for that matter) that Russ' supporting cast is anything close to good on the offensive end

[IronMonkey415]

I had a dream about these 2 guys last night and I think CO-MVP would be fitting.

In my dream all the players foul out and it was only these 2 going at for 2 days.
Harden did win at the end though.

[andy88c]

The intelligence level in this thread is shocking. I told you to look up numbers in my last post. Y'all don't. McDermott is a career 39.7% 3 point shooter. Ryno is 38%. 39.7% is freaking elite, guys...that's easily top-20, but he hasn't gotten enough opportunities thus far in his career. He just never got an opportunity to play all that much. His issue is being a little small for a 4 (like Ryno), but not athletic enough to be a true 3. So the Thunder will have to figure out how to deploy him. Abrines is also hyped up as a tremendous 3 point threat. Look at the contract OKC paid him and he's shot very well in limited opportunities. Pro tip: Don't take people's thoughts on another man that seriously.

It's also about sample size. I am referencing career numbers rather than this year because of sample size.

Taj Gibson is a great hustle player to have. Probably comparable to Nene in Houston.

Adams has regressed this year, but he does all of the little things that don't show up in the box score. Screens. Arguably the best big in the league at clearing out on rotations on defense and also elite in switches. Like I said, this team is built for two guys to dominate all of the touches with everyone else as role players, but now it's just one guy. Dipo is also a ball-dominant type player, so I did think that fit was odd. But they were probably envisioning him running the second unit a lot while resting KD and Russell.

No, because Enes Kanter can't defend the 4 and Adams is a better player to play off of Westbrook. Kanter is a better fit for the bench because the Thunder's second unit uses the hell out of him...he has the second highest usage rate on the team.

What's impressive is his endurance and ability to go for that long of a game. It's more of an athletic feat, rather than an intellectual approach to the game. That's my main issue with Westbrook, it's really a caveman's approach to basketball, whereas Harden's game is beautiful and efficient.

[Chris P]

Originally Posted by andy88c

The intelligence level in this thread is shocking. I told you to look up numbers in my last post. Y'all don't. McDermott is a career 39.7% 3 point shooter. Ryno is 38%. 39.7% is freaking elite, guys...that's easily top-20, but he hasn't gotten enough opportunities thus far in his career. He just never got an opportunity to play all that much. His issue is being a little small for a 4 (like Ryno), but not athletic enough to be a true 3. So the Thunder will have to figure out how to deploy him. Abrines is also hyped up as a tremendous 3 point threat. Look at the contract OKC paid him and he's shot very well in limited opportunities. Pro tip: Don't take people's thoughts on another man that seriously.

It's also about sample size. I am referencing career numbers rather than this year because of sample size.

Taj Gibson is a great hustle player to have. Probably comparable to Nene in Houston.

Adams has regressed this year, but he does all of the little things that don't show up in the box score. Screens. Arguably the best big in the league at clearing out on rotations on defense and also elite in switches. Like I said, this team is built for two guys to dominate all of the touches with everyone else as role players, but now it's just one guy. Dipo is also a ball-dominant type player, so I did think that fit was odd. But they were probably envisioning him running the second unit a lot while resting KD and Russell.

No, because Enes Kanter can't defend the 4 and Adams is a better player to play off of Westbrook. Kanter is a better fit for the bench because the Thunder's second unit uses the hell out of him...he has the second highest usage rate on the team.

What's impressive is his endurance and ability to go for that long of a game. It's more of an athletic feat, rather than an intellectual approach to the game. That's my main issue with Westbrook, it's really a caveman's approach to basketball, whereas Harden's game is beautiful and efficient.

I don't care what stats say..McDermott and Abrines aren't elite 3 point shooters...could they be..possibly..but right now..nope..anyways I'm not going to change your mind about it so forget I know how you feel. I have a serious question though..Westbrook doesn't impress you..I get it..and you say you're tired of "Westbrook is a triple double god" talk..so why bother to come into a thread that does nothing but praise Russ? If you hate the talk so much why click on a thread that you know is going to make you mad. If I were to see a Westbrook sucks thread..I for sure won't be stepping a foot in that thread..why would i? Why do you have to come here and tell us "well..what he does doesn't impress me"..what's the point? To make us feel stupid for liking him? To make yourself feel better that you've told the forum your feelings of Russ? Why don't you create a Russ is overrated thread and trash him there. What makes your and people like you posts irritating is that you come in here in an obvious Pro Westbrook thread to do nothing but stick your nose up on his season. People hate the use of the term "hater" but seriously what's the point of your posts? You continually argue his season isn't impressive in your eyes..so what? This isn't a debate thread..this isn't a who's the MVP Harden or Westbrook thread..this isn't a Who would you rather have Westbrook or Harden thread" it's just a simple appreciation thread but because some people just can't let others enjoy what THEY like, you have to try to ruin on our parade. guess what..i know it's crazy but some of us LIKE Russell Westbrook and we enjoy what he's doing this season, thus the thread created. I just truly don't understand what purpose posts like yours serve in a non debate thread.

[Orangejello727]

get some fresh air. You are getting too worked up and raising that blood pressure over a debate. Just debating here. Dont get so worked up. Opinion vs opinion

[Chris P]

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

get some fresh air. You are getting too worked up and raising that blood pressure over a debate. Just debating here. Dont get so worked up. Opinion vs opinion

Trust me worked up?? Opinion vs Opinion is great..for a debate thread. Nah..just annoyed..plus did you ever find my posts where i was ripping Curry?

[Orangejello727]

Originally Posted by Chris P

Trust me worked up?? Opinion vs Opinion is great..for a debate thread. Nah..just annoyed..plus did you ever find my posts where i was ripping Curry?

We already went over it.

http://www.blowoutcards.com/forums/1...-post1727.html

I stated you and someone else rip into Curry/Durant and the warriors. You even admitted you rip into Durant. Theres nothing more to state on it.

[Chris P]

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

We already went over it.

http://www.blowoutcards.com/forums/1...-post1727.html

I stated you and someone else rip into Curry/Durant and the warriors. You even admitted you rip into Durant. Theres nothing more to state on it.

Except that you lied...and again..irony is you get the use the "it's all about context" when you got called out on it and I said I rip into KD as a defense of Russ not to prop him up but whatever suits you man. I'm seriously done with you..I've never ignored anyone on this thread (not even Verlander or EMB) but you're seriously something else. Sick of your know it all attitude and how you manipulate things to fit your argument. I know you won't care..but whatever

[Orangejello727]

Originally Posted by Chris P

Except that you lied...and again..irony is you get the use the "it's all about context" when you got called out on it and I said I rip into KD as a defense of Russ not to prop him up but whatever suits you man. I'm seriously done with you..I've never ignored anyone on this thread (not even Verlander or EMB) but you're seriously something else. Sick of your know it all attitude and how you manipulate things to fit your argument. I know you won't care..but whatever

You've honestly lost your marbles.

Originally Posted by Chris P

LMAO please PLEASE find direct quotes from me where I have ever talked about the Warriors or Curry to prop up Russ...BESIDES THEIR FANS THAT TROLL HERE??? WHERE??? If I talked about KD it's because I've said he's a coward for leaving OKC to go to Golden State..or that I said I wish I could see what he could do on his own in Westbrook's place since YOU said you'd put money on him doing better than Russ OKC or addressing people saying how Russ' is the reason KD left when KD CHOKED just as much too (blaming BOTH not just KD)...look man have all your opinions that you damn want...but don't MAKE UP CRAP about my postings

Okay if you say you have never said anything about Curry/Durant/Warriors, then I guess you never said the above. I know when I responded to Pittsburgh, his reply was he walking talking smack about curry because EMB bought it up. You even started a thread about downing the warriors because of some click bait news about them being upset with durants return for attention. You're all over the Warriors hate wagon.

I dont lie about things. Infact I quote the specific and directly show you. You just happen to ignore it.

[cnewby]

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

I dont lie about things. Infact I quote the specific and directly show you. You just happen to ignore it.

speaking of ignoring...

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

I can show you in the past 4 pages where you and Chris P have done nothing but put down the Warriors and Curry / Durant to prop RW. Show me where Ive done that to put RW down?

[Orangejello727]

Originally Posted by cnewby

speaking of ignoring...

Uhh none of those are trashing RWB.