Dee Gordon Suspended 80 Games

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by JustinVerlander07

It's not that a high BABIP automatically equals luck, often times it relates to a guy who is fast (like Dee in that case) or guys who make really hard contact all the time (Miguel Cabrera constantly had high BABIPs from that). However look at Gordon's season by season BABIP and yes, I'm willing to just say luck.



What else do you equate an abnormally high BABIP too (in this case Gordon's 2015 was 50 points higher than his career BABIP) and his next highest season was 30 points lower than 2015's.

The only way to say without just randomly guessing is to watch every AB and chart it. There could be lots of reasons why balls in play become hits instead of outs besides luck. It could just as easily be launch angle, fly ball rate, or plate approach than it could be luck. In reality, it's most likely a combination of all the reasons batted balls become hits. Luck is only a small part of that equuation.

Ultimately, all that is speculation. One thing that isn't speculation is his positive test.

[rwperu34]

Originally Posted by Rooftop

Dee Brown played basketball.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...rownde02.shtml

[rwperu34]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

So you have no problem assuming higher BABIP equals luck, but you aren't willing to consider other factors that expected stats take into account that help explain the on-field numbers? That seems very contradictory.

Mathematically, there is no such thing as being lucky over a 162 game season. Law of averages says it would even out over that sample size.

162 games is actually a relatively small sample for most stats. For some it is miniscule (BABIP for instance). For some it is pletny (K%, BB%). Even on the most robust stats (fastball velocity, for instance), there is some variance even over a 162 game season.

[JustinVerlander07]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

The only way to say without just randomly guessing is to watch every AB and chart it. There could be lots of reasons why balls in play become hits instead of outs besides luck. It could just as easily be launch angle, fly ball rate, or plate approach than it could be luck. In reality, it's most likely a combination of all the reasons batted balls become hits. Luck is only a small part of that equuation.

Ultimately, all that is speculation. One thing that isn't speculation is his positive test.

Can you explain to me how PEDs help you hit a Baseball?

[Noles939913]

Originally Posted by JustinVerlander07

Can you explain to me how PEDs help you hit a Baseball?

They can help you focus and combat fatigue for starters.

[Big35Hurt]

Originally Posted by JustinVerlander07

Can you explain to me how PEDs help you hit a Baseball?

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by JustinVerlander07

Can you explain to me how PEDs help you hit a Baseball?

The ways are numerous. I'm even someone who doesn't really care about PEDs in the game, but even I recognize that a higher bat speed will translate to a better ability to hit a pitched baseball. That can't really be argued. The single most effective thing that father time does to contribute to the downfall of a player as they age is slows down their bat speed. That's why PED users age differently than other players. Couple that with increased stamina and not being fatigued over a season/career, as well as quicker recovery from those nagging ailments that slow a player down during the season, and PEDs absolutely help you hit better. It's crazy to argue otherwise. This doesn't even get into the fact that some PEDs actually increase vision, focus, and reaction speed, which directly impact the ability to hit a ball.

[SaveMeTheGum]

Originally Posted by JustinVerlander07

Can you explain to me how PEDs help you hit a Baseball?

Fly ball outs turn into HRs

[okumeister]

Saw this thread resurrected and thought for a second that he finally announced retirement.

[THE(NEXT)LEVEL]

Originally Posted by JustinVerlander07

Can you explain to me how PEDs help you hit a Baseball?

So why aren't they allowed, why do players bother taking them, and why do they get suspended if the do? Please stop with the it doesn't help with hitting a baseball #@#@#@#@.

[DawnBTVS]

Originally Posted by THE(NEXT)LEVEL

So why aren't they allowed, why do players bother taking them, and why do they get suspended if the do? Please stop with the it doesn't help with hitting a baseball #@#@#@#@.

The issue is less something like pure hand/eye coordination (which I suspect people who make the "But how does it help hit a baseball"??? lean towards) but PEDs help muscular growth/lessen recovery time in the gym so more bulk muscle can be added over a shorter time period without the same fatigue or gym time usually required. That's why you'd see these guys adding 10-15+ pounds of "muscle" over a single summer at the height of the PEDs era or being able to up their velocity by building more muscle. A player with say a swing speed of 72 MPH at 180 pounds is going to naturally hit a ball harder/farther if they swing at 72 MPH while now being 205 pounds with more muscle.

As an aside, it also just helps in recovery from injury so an older, aging ballplayer would be more likely to try and take PEDs/Steroids for recovery purposes and get the 'side benefits' of the above.

[fabiani12333]

On top of Gordon and Braun getting busted for exogenous testosterone after having career years at the plate (highest BA and OPS), Melky Cabrera is another example. He got busted in 2012 for testosterone in the midst of a career year at the plate -- highest batting and OPS. All three players were in their age-27 season.

PED use in MLB is often associated with home runs, but it's really the day-to-day consistency where you see the results.

[hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by JustinVerlander07

Can you explain to me how PEDs help you hit a Baseball?

Sent from my SM-S928U using Tapatalk

[JustinVerlander07]

Originally Posted by SaveMeTheGum

Fly ball outs turn into HRs

How much further are the balls traveling from PEDs?

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

The ways are numerous. I'm even someone who doesn't really care about PEDs in the game, but even I recognize that a higher bat speed will translate to a better ability to hit a pitched baseball. That can't really be argued. The single most effective thing that father time does to contribute to the downfall of a player as they age is slows down their bat speed. That's why PED users age differently than other players. Couple that with increased stamina and not being fatigued over a season/career, as well as quicker recovery from those nagging ailments that slow a player down during the season, and PEDs absolutely help you hit better. It's crazy to argue otherwise. This doesn't even get into the fact that some PEDs actually increase vision, focus, and reaction speed, which directly impact the ability to hit a ball.

It's not crazy to argue when you can't actually articulate what a PED did for say Dee Gordon other than citing a batting line and trying to correlate PEDs make your BABIP higher.

Originally Posted by THE(NEXT)LEVEL

So why aren't they allowed, why do players bother taking them, and why do they get suspended if the do? Please stop with the it doesn't help with hitting a baseball #@#@#@#@.

They aren't allowed because the government made them illegal? You get suspended now because Bud Selig decided he wasn't going to ignore usage after doing so for a long time while they were illegal?

Is your only argument an appeal to authority?

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

On top of Gordon and Braun getting busted for exogenous testosterone after having career years at the plate (highest BA and OPS), Melky Cabrera is another example. He got busted in 2012 for testosterone in the midst of a career year at the plate -- highest batting and OPS. All three players were in their age-27 season.

PED use in MLB is often associated with home runs, but it's really the day-to-day consistency where you see the results.

Melky had a BABIP 70 points above his career average!! ISO was also in range with his 2011 and 2014 seasons.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by JustinVerlander07

How much further are the balls traveling from PEDs?

https://baseball.physics.illinois.ed...teroids-v3.pdf



Can we stop this stupid argument now?

[BadChad]

Originally Posted by THE(NEXT)LEVEL

So why aren't they allowed, why do players bother taking them, and why do they get suspended if the do? Please stop with the it doesn't help with hitting a baseball #@#@#@#@.

It’s 2025. I’m confused why we care about the purity of sport. It’s long gone.

Let the gladiators juice and the long balls fly. In the least, increased recovery time is a huge plus.

[jlzinck]

Originally Posted by speedyjg13

Dee Gordon says he got suspended because he was told not to beat out Bryce Harper for the batting title in 2015, which would have given him the triple crown.

Dee suspended in 2016.

Thommy was the ultimate Dee Gordon collector and he stopped posting on BO after this happened in 2016. I hope he was okay after all this.

https://youtube.com/shorts/NBJ5EsABO...lPrVtB18djfvqa

I believe that a flying unicorn will bring Tupac to thrown the World Series ceremonial world series 1st pitch to Biggie this fall before I believe this

[THE(NEXT)LEVEL]

Originally Posted by JustinVerlander07

They aren't allowed because the government made them illegal? You get suspended now because Bud Selig decided he wasn't going to ignore usage after doing so for a long time while they were illegal?

Is your only argument an appeal to authority?

.

You forgot to answer the most important point. If they don't work, what is the purpose and why do players bother taking them?

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by THE(NEXT)LEVEL

You forgot to answer the most important point. If they don't work, what is the purpose and why do players bother taking them?

Not to mention that he is flat out lying. Many PEDs that are banned are NOT illegal. So the government making them illegal is irrelevant. He's being about as disingenuous as possible here.

[rfgilles]

Originally Posted by DawnBTVS

A player with say a swing speed of 72 MPH at 180 pounds is going to naturally hit a ball harder/farther if they swing at 72 MPH while now being 205 pounds with more muscle.

This isn't how physics works.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by JustinVerlander07

Melky had a BABIP 70 points above his career average!! ISO was also in range with his 2011 and 2014 seasons.

And? That was part of my point -- the testosterone helped elevate his performance and made him a more consistent and productive hitter. The high BABIP is a reflection of that -- not just luck. As you previously pointed out, higher BABIP hitters tend to also be the best overall hitters. For example, Aaron Judge has been at the top of the league in BABIP each of the last two seasons.

[JustinVerlander07]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

https://baseball.physics.illinois.ed...teroids-v3.pdf



Can we stop this stupid argument now?

TLDR of that? Also I like how it starts with the word 'possible'.

Originally Posted by THE(NEXT)LEVEL

You forgot to answer the most important point. If they don't work, what is the purpose and why do players bother taking them?

I'm sure there are many positives, I don't believe steroids help you hit a Baseball.

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

And? That was part of my point -- the testosterone helped elevate his performance and made him a more consistent and productive hitter. The high BABIP is a reflection of that -- not just luck. As you previously pointed out, higher BABIP hitters tend to also be the best overall hitters. For example, Aaron Judge has been at the top of the league in BABIP each of the last two seasons.

So steroids = sky high BABIPs? Is that what you're saying?

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by JustinVerlander07

So steroids = sky high BABIPs? Is that what you're saying?

In part, yeah. It depends on the hitter's profile, though. Those who are more home run/flyball hitters are going to have relatively lower BABIPs, but higher home run and extra-base totals.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by JustinVerlander07

TLDR of that? Also I like how it starts with the word 'possible'.

The TLDR of it was, "Of course steroids make you a better hitter, dummy. Here are stats that prove it."

You're welcome.

[rwperu34]

All these years big league scouts have been looking for size and strength. Who knew they were doing it wrong the whole time? Maybe somebody can go back in time and tell them so my 5'10", 135 pound 18 year old self can get a contract!