What will it take for Joker to be in top 10 conversation?

[Zedlaw]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

Jokic needs another ring at minimum to be in the convo w/ Hakeem.


1 title, 1 FMVP, 3x MVP, 4x 1st team

vs

2 titles, 2 FMVP, 1x MVP, 2x DPOY, 3x blk leader, 2x reb leader, 6x 1st team all nba, 5x 1st team all defense.

The recency bias on these forums is so crazy.

If you put these 2 blind resumes next to each other nobody is saying they're in the same tier.

I feel comfortable giving Jokic 4x OPOY awards. Not sure why defense gets extra billing in these arguments. I find their situations fairly comparable and Jokic with the much bigger peak, I certainly wouldn’t put Jokic ahead without more all nbas.

[Zedlaw]

Originally Posted by boxbuster7

Jesus Christ

That’s seems lofty

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by Zedlaw

I feel comfortable giving Jokic 4x OPOY awards. Not sure why defense gets extra billing in these arguments. I find their situations fairly comparable and Jokic with the much bigger peak, I certainly wouldn’t put Jokic ahead without more all nbas.

I have no idea what OPOY is supposed to be or how you measure it but the resumes aren't even close right now.

[yiguiri2002]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

Jokic needs another ring at minimum to be in the convo w/ Hakeem.


1 title, 1 FMVP, 3x MVP, 4x 1st team

vs

2 titles, 2 FMVP, 1x MVP, 2x DPOY, 3x blk leader, 2x reb leader, 6x 1st team all nba, 5x 1st team all defense.

The recency bias on these forums is so crazy.

If you put these 2 blind resumes next to each other nobody is saying they're in the same tier.

I think most people agree but:

- You can 2x triple double leader to Joker too
- No need to add the block/rebound leader thing
- Joker was a one time rebounding leader

[Zedlaw]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

I have no idea what OPOY is supposed to be or how you measure it but the resumes aren't even close right now.

Offensive player of the year. Made it up

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by yiguiri2002

I think most people agree but:

- You can 2x triple double leader to Joker too
- No need to add the block/rebound leader thing
- Joker was a one time rebounding leader

Was he?

There's an argument to be made if you're looking at peak only that Jokic is top 10 all time. I'd go as far as saying top 5 peak is probably on the table.

I'd have to think a lot more about that but I would feel comfortable putting his peak easily in the bottom half of the top 10.

[jcardstore]

Originally Posted by Zedlaw

Offensive player of the year. Made it up

It was a tongue and cheek comment lol

[yiguiri2002]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

Was he?

There's an argument to be made if you're looking at peak only that Jokic is top 10 all time. I'd go as far as saying top 5 peak is probably on the table.

I'd have to think a lot more about that but I would feel comfortable putting his peak easily in the bottom half of the top 10.

2021-22 according to Basketball Reference.

[boxbuster7]

Originally Posted by jcardstore

I have no idea what OPOY is supposed to be or how you measure it but the resumes aren't even close right now.

Jokic is still in his prime - of course the resumes aren't close

[tjforce]

Originally Posted by daeve

Doesn't seem to hurt MJ. I do take longevity into acct, which is why I have Kareem as #1 all-time, but most seem to not care that MJ isn't anywhere near the all-time leaderboards.

He is in some places it counts:
-FMVPs
-MVPs
-1st team all NBA
-Scoring
-PPG


It's the same reason why in football you already have Mahomes creeping in the GOAT conversation despite being 65th on the career passing yards list, behind the likes of Chris Chandler and Trent Green. He created a dynasty that had spanned over the past 5 seasons that's as good as any stretch it NFL history.

And that's Jokic's chance to really stand out. It doesn't have to be this year, but if you can at a 4-5 year stretch where he is at the top of winning multiple championships and MVPs, then you can start to breach the conversation with other guys who did it like Duncan, Curry, LeBron, Bird, MJ, Magic.

[daeve]

Originally Posted by Chris P

Josh howard wasnt on the title team. Caron butler was and was their 2nd leading scorer but missed the playoffs with an injury

Thanks for the correction - Caron Butler is actually kind of a great comp for MPJ and I never even realized it. Still got 2x A-S nods before joining the Mavs.

This prompted me to look at the roster and box scores and I like how nobody mentioned 4x All-Star and 2x All-NBA Shawn Marion, who I remembered played for Dallas but totally forgot it was for this Finals run. Not an all-star in a Dallas jersey but was still in the latter prime years and a good contributor.

So the argument tilts more in favor of Joker now.

[calmar]

Basketball analytics is helpful and clarifying here. For the last four seasons Jokic has led the NBA in VORP, PER, and WS/48 -- all those stats, for four years in a row. That's the kind of thing you'd only find, if at all, in the resumes of Kareem in the 1970s, Jordan in the late 1980s/early 1990s, and LeBron in the late 2000s/early 2010s. Few other players I can think of. I don't even like Jokic but I can see there is something ultra-elite and historic going on. Besides, the voting on MVPs, 1st-team All-NBA, etc. is wrong all the time. LeBron and Jordan clearly should have several more MVPs than they got.

[daeve]

Originally Posted by yiguiri2002

I think most people agree but:

- You can 2x triple double leader to Joker too
- No need to add the block/rebound leader thing
- Joker was a one time rebounding leader

Right, it's kind of disingenuous to put notches in Hakeem's belt for blocks and rebounds and not mention how Joker has blown the doors off what it looks like to play offense as a 5. Just like what Steph did with 3's and everyone, including whole teams emulating him... we're already seeing other centers like Sabonis and Sengun try their darnedest to match Jokic and Joker just turned 29 in Feb.

[robert0629]

I don't think he's top 10 yet, but if he continues to play at this level and wins at least one more ring he probably gets into the top 10. By the way Dr. J seems to be missing from many top 10 lists. i get it, he played in the ABA. But if you count those ABA years, he's definitely top 10.

Joker may already have passed Dirk, it's close though. Dirk had better teammates. He played with Nash for three or four seasons. In two of those seasons I believe they both made the all-star team. They couldn't win anything though. Dirk was also on that 67 win team that blew it by losing in the 1st round to a Nuggets team led by Baron Davis.

As for Joker, he has obviously accomplished a lot without a stellar supporting cast. But lets not downplay how great Murray has been at times in the playoffs over the last few years. You could argue he has outplayed Joker in a few of those series. Against Utah in 2020, he balled out. That was the series that him an Mitchell both put up several big scoring games. I believe Murray averaged more than 30 ppg for the series. And against the Lakers last year, he was as good as anyone in that series.

I think being an all-star is important, but you still have to look at how they perform in the playoffs. Jimmy Butler didn't make the all-star team last year, but he was still the Heat's best player and led them to the Finals.

[hermanotarjeta]

If Joker, Olajuwon and Dr. J (with ABA) are top 10, who gets bumped out?

It’s easy to say so and so should be top 10, but you can’t have 15 players in the top 10.

[yiguiri2002]

To daeve's point: Did any of the Top 10 guys (let's say Top 12 because of Kobe/Hakeem/Steph) make it to the Top 20 before 30 or their 10th season? Only for the guys that have played the last 30 years.

MJ and LeBron would be the only ones that comes to mind. I don't think Kobe or Hakeem were. Steph, TD and Shaq were really close but I don't think they would make the cut.

[6celtics33]

Couple things that Hakeem gets juice for to me

1.) He dismantled his rivals at his position. The game was played inside out then. Big men won. And he crushed Ewing, Robinson, and Shaq all on his way to titles. He was the clear superior player.

2.) He always raised his level of play and production in the playoffs. I don’t know how it ended up or where jokic is at the moment with this group but for awhile it was Hakeem, Pettit, and Dirk as the only players with 25 or 26-10 playoff averages, whatever the cutoff was. That was the list.

[Zedlaw]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

Couple things that Hakeem gets juice for to me

1.) He dismantled his rivals at his position. The game was played inside out then. Big men won. And he crushed Ewing, Robinson, and Shaq all on his way to titles. He was the clear superior player.

2.) He always raised his level of play and production in the playoffs. I don’t know how it ended up or where jokic is at the moment with this group but for awhile it was Hakeem, Pettit, and Dirk as the only players with 25 or 26-10 playoff averages, whatever the cutoff was. That was the list.

Another reminder of how many 2-0 series the Suns have blown

[daeve]

Every player with at least 3 NBA MVPs in their career

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (6)
Michael Jordan (5)
LeBron James (4)
Bill Russell (4)
Larry Bird (3)
Wilt Chamberlain (3)
Magic Johnson (3)
Nikola Jokic (3)
Moses Malone (3)

So the two on this list who aren't currently top 10 are Joker and Moses. I tend to have Moses around 15th all-time, I guess depends on how you feel about Dr J / Oscar / Cousy or even if you go further back and like Mikan. Just past the Hakeem/Curry/Kobe tier.

[Zedlaw]

Originally Posted by yiguiri2002

To daeve's point: Did any of the Top 10 guys (let's say Top 12 because of Kobe/Hakeem/Steph) make it to the Top 20 before 30 or their 10th season? Only for the guys that have played the last 30 years.

MJ and LeBron would be the only ones that comes to mind. I don't think Kobe or Hakeem were. Steph, TD and Shaq were really close but I don't think they would make the cut.

Shaq just turned 30 when he threepeated. Curry just turned 30 after his third. Both had elite teammates and needed more hardware before approaching top ten. Duncan had 3 titles and 2 MVPs by 29. I’d put that ahead of Jokic.

[daeve]

I always thought Shaq kinda liked Joker too... all the former players hate him, it feeds into the vitriol.

https://streamable.com/dn7du7

[6celtics33]

Bill Russell has 5 MVP’s and for all the talk about how stacked his teams were, he was in 10 game 7s to which he went 10-0

[6celtics33]

And Wilt has 4

[6celtics33]

This does put Jokic in elite company. I hope Perk has his counselors on standby

[daeve]

Originally Posted by 6celtics33

And Wilt has 4

lol you're right. Literally quoted from an nba.com article. https://www.nba.com/news/nba-players...t-least-3-mvps